Pistol Carbine for BOB

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:22 am

Gingerbread Man wrote: Proof? I and a whole load of dead folks disagree. If it's not a deadly wound, then why do people die from it, even below 2500 feet per second, 2500 meters per second properly converted is 8202 Feet Per Second.
woodsghost wrote:As I view the Brass Fletcher video, I see the round traveling in a line. A curved line, sure, but the tip is forward, there is no tumbling throughout the whole path.

I didn't say tumbling. I have never said tumbling. I said yawing.
ok I'll admit I got the units wrong, I'm not used to having to deal with metric/imperial conversion all the time. People die from bullet PLACEMENT. I specifically listed my sources for review.

On the yawing/tumbling point of this, I may be using the vernacular incorrectly. I view yawing and tumbling as interchangable. the bullet is no longer pointing in the same direction it started, and may do this many times before it exits. tumbling vs yawing is probably some component of the viscosity of the material.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:34 am

The yawing motion of projectiles at speed is and has been a major wound component. Of course shoot placement matter however you can not ignore it has to be with a projectile capable to cause a wound. The 5.56 does that.

Here's some bullets specifically designed to yaw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGYF8DTLcj4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq3ZEZ7YFw

There may be and probably is a less pronounced affect from the 5.56 yawing at lower speeds however it still does create a grave and potentially fatal wound. The M855 ceases fragmenting at about 125 yds from a M16. People shot past that distance will experience the yawing wound and there are plenty of folks that have succumb to the experience.

Are short barreled 5.56 caliber guns optimal? No. However, are you going to war/heavy social conflict or are you defending youself and family?
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by woodsghost » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:38 am

I have never said a 5.56 causes a welt.

The point being made is that it performs better than a .22. I"m saying the video posted does not indicate, to me, that the round performed better than a .22 would. But reasonable people look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions all the time.

It would be useful to find other tests which show rounds that tend not to fragment, such as Wolf and Tulammo, and see what kinds of cavities they produce. What I have seen is not radically different from a .22, though often enough you get a single flip as they go ass first and continue on.

I am open to being corrected. I understand "yaw" and "tumbling" to be interchangeable when discussing bullet ballistics. If, however, it is intended that "yaw" strictly refer to when a bullet starts to change direction from a straight line to a curved line, I am willing to say that lengthens the wound cavity (as a curved line will be longer than a straight line) but rounds which exhibit fragmentation or tumbling would be my preferred choices.

I don't think anyone would say a hole in your body is something you shrug off. The key issues here are how fast a person is taken out of a fight. If you hit someone 5 times and they are still shooting at you, that is bad. Even if they will die of their wounds eventually. So I see no reason to say "5.56 is not lethal." It is. That is not the argument or relevant to the discussion. What is relevant is stopping a fight and whatever rounds make a BG say "this sucks, I'm going to stop shooting" or even better "urrghhh....-dead-" is what I want to be using.

Again, I don't know who on this planet ever said the 5.56 "causes a welt."
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:48 am

I was kidding about the welts, reddness and minor abrasions. Humor.

I'd really like to see these test were the 5.56 is performing like a 22 LR. People keep saying it but have yet to provide proof. I've done tests on both and the two are vastly different. I've test M855, X193, 77gr OTM and Hornady 60gr TAP. None of them even came close to producing anything close to the wound channel of the CCI 22LR or the 22 magnums I tested. 22s drill straight holes. 5.56 fragments/yaws violently.

Bringing Tula and Wolf into this is silly. Come on, those bullets and loads are crap. Well documented crap.

It's been said many, many times before but there are stories about people who've needed a second or third helping of "Insert bullet" to stop them. That's why every team of anyone shoots til they stop the threat and they all use 5.56 by the vast majority.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by zombieslayer001 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:53 am

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:00 am

Gary K. Roberts wrote:Dr. Fackler’s seminal work at the
Letterman Army Institute of Research Wound Ballistic Laboratory during the
1980’s illuminated the yaw and fragmentation mechanism by which 5.56 mm
FMJ bullets create wounds in tissue.
.If 5.56 mm bullets fail to upset (yaw,
fragment, or deform) within tissue, the results are
relatively insignificant wounds, similar to those
produced by .22 LR--this is true for ALL
5.56 mm bullets, including military FMJ , OTM, and AP,
as well as JHP and JSP designs used in LE. This failure of 5.56 mm bullets to
upset can be caused by reduced impact velocities when hitting targets at
longer ranges, as well as by the decreased muzzle velocity when using short
barrel carbines.
as quoted from the presentation by Gary K. Roberts, LCDR, USNR
Topic: Time for a Change
U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition
Failures and Solutions

Gingerbread Man wrote:I'd really like to see these test were the 5.56 is performing like a 22 LR. People keep saying it but have yet to provide proof.

It's been said many, many times before but there are stories about people who've needed a second or third helping of "Insert bullet" to stop them. That's why every team of anyone shoots til they stop the threat and they all use 5.56 by the vast majority.
I've given you the direction to find this proof, feel free to enlighten us when you get back.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:28 am

Bunk study done 35 years ago when they were trying to get rid of the 5.56. Modern ballistic test have proven, I already posted them, that the bullet does yaw and fragment. If it were as bad as a 22lr, special forces would have dropped it. They went to the 6.8 and found the exact same results as the 5.56.

But you go ahead with 35 year ballistic studies, I stick with modern gel tests which are the FBI standard.

"the results are
relatively insignificant wounds, similar to those
produced by .22 LR--this is true for ALL
5.56 mm bullets, including military FMJ , OTM, and AP,"

This study has an ax to grind. 77gr OTM 5.56 fragments a larger ranges than the typical bullet. I seriosuly question his methods and results. If the 5.56 performed "Just like a 22LR" then there would be a whole load of folks still around but that's not so.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by crypto » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:37 am

Dr Facklers works on terminal ballistics can /HARDLY/ be called a 'bunk study'. They're still the defining works in the field.

Fackler has shown repeatedly that the yawing does not cause a severe permanent wound cavity in normal tissue, because it's too elastic. Most of his important work was investigating the then-new Soviet 5.45mm round, which everyone was afraid of.

Fackler showed that without fragmentation (because it wsa bi-metal) the yawing did little damage beyond the actual extent of hole, and the permanent wound cavity was little more damage than would be done by a non-yawing projectile.

Fackler went through something like a hundred anethetized pigs for this study. He was shooting actual bullets into actual meat, then doing autopsies on them. It was a far more comprehensive study than gel blocks.

I'd like to see any sources you have that say any of Facklers papers were wrong.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:44 am

Why does the 5.56 keep working then and every attempt to change have failed?

Because it does it's job.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:44 am

Gingerbread Man wrote: "the results are
relatively insignificant wounds, similar to those
produced by .22 LR--this is true for ALL
5.56 mm bullets, including military FMJ , OTM, and AP,"

This study has an ax to grind.
Out of context is always a bad place to be, now add this piece of text to the above "If 5.56 mm bullets fail to upset"
Wow completely different meaning.

On the topic of why use it if it fails.... surely its obviously apparent that momentum to change is slow, and there have been many mistakes on this trail before.... 9mm vs .45 vs 10mm vs .40

But in this particular case my history is a bit hazy, something along the lines of
308 too heavy, want more rounds.
went to 5.56 in a long barrel.
gradual reduction in barrel length down to 10" due to urban warfare.
noting a failure to heavily wound, seeks different ammo in same calibre
still noting failures
present day.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:50 am

Dioxin wrote:Out of context is always a bad place to be, now add this piece of text to the above "If 5.56 mm bullets fail to upset"
Wow completely different meaning.

On the topic of why use it if it fails.... surely its obviously apparent that momentum to change is slow, and there have been many mistakes on this trail before.... 9mm vs .45 vs 10mm vs .40
Yes, that is the operative word, IF it fails then it doesn't yaw and performs like a 22LR. When it does perform as intented it does it's job which is the majority of the time or we'd have a whole bunch more wounded enemies.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by crypto » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:52 am

Gingerbread Man wrote:Why does the 5.56 keep working then and every attempt to change have failed?

Because it does it's job.
It's changed quite a bit over its 50 year lifespan, though. We spin it faster than we used to, and in service largely use something other than 55gr FMJ these days.


I'm not knocking 5.56, mind you, but its entirely true that its effectiveness as a fight-stopper is almost entirely dependent on its ability to fragment.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:58 am

crypto wrote:
Gingerbread Man wrote:Why does the 5.56 keep working then and every attempt to change have failed?

Because it does it's job.
It's changed quite a bit over its 50 year lifespan, though. We spin it faster than we used to, and in service largely use something other than 55gr FMJ these days.

I'm not knocking 5.56, mind you, but its entirely true that its effectiveness as a fight-stopper is almost entirely dependent on its ability to fragment.
Granted, it's better as a fragmenter, I wholely agree, but even it's yawing causes a grave wound. I hate to say this and feel like a douche (I am) for it but I have a bunch of friends who were snipers/DMR/SAW gunners who hit people 300-600 yds out and killed folks. Sure, they may have dragged themselves off to die but they died none the less. 300-600 yds is out of it's fragmentation range so yawing has to be a factor. What else would be killing them?

I also agree we have better tech in FMJ bullets today than 35 years ago. So it may have been true then, but I have watched what's happeing in this time period and it's working.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by crypto » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:05 am

Gingerbread Man wrote: What else would be killing them?

Well, really, I mean, getting a hole punched into them in the middle of the wilderness is what's killing them. I mean, yeah unless someone is also shooting them with a .22LR from 50 feet as a control mechanism you're not going to be able to call it scientific, but they're dying because they got shot center mass and are eventually bleeding out.

I'm just saying there's a whole lot of peer-reviewed science thats come in over the last 40 years that shows physiologically, the yawing doesnt contribute a whole lot of wounding potential unless it hits one of the non-elastic organs like the liver or kidneys.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:06 am

Gingerbread Man wrote: but I have a bunch of friends who were snipers/DMR/SAW gunners who hit people 300-600 yds out and killed folks. Sure, they may have dragged themselves off to die but they died none the less. 300-600 yds is out of it's fragmentation range so yawing has to be a factor. What else would be killing them?
The 3 groups of people described do not use short barreled carbines, violent yawing still occurs under the circumstances they encounter.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:14 am

Dioxin wrote:
Gingerbread Man wrote: but I have a bunch of friends who were snipers/DMR/SAW gunners who hit people 300-600 yds out and killed folks. Sure, they may have dragged themselves off to die but they died none the less. 300-600 yds is out of it's fragmentation range so yawing has to be a factor. What else would be killing them?
The 3 groups of people described do not use short barreled carbines, violent yawing still occurs under the circumstances they encounter.
Au contrare, most of my bro-tastics were using M4s. The SAW was the para version woth a 14.5" barrel used by the SgtMajor of the 82nd airbourne. One even tapped a guy at 300m with a 10.5" 5.56 carbine and he died too. None of these guys had anything to prove and had more medals and crap to prove their manhood as opposed to a bullshit story. These guys have no reason to lie. One SEAL slapped me because I said the 5.56 was a 22LR. He was a sniper and routinely hit people at 500m with a 16" carbine, far outside it's fragmentation threshold. He showed me his DD214, I have to reason to doubt him because he was riddled with PTSD.

Point is that yawing is a factor. They're were shot outside the fragmentation threshold.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:19 am

Dioxin wrote:
Gingerbread Man wrote: but I have a bunch of friends who were snipers/DMR/SAW gunners who hit people 300-600 yds out and killed folks. Sure, they may have dragged themselves off to die but they died none the less. 300-600 yds is out of it's fragmentation range so yawing has to be a factor. What else would be killing them?
The 3 groups of people described do not use short barreled carbines, violent yawing still occurs under the circumstances they encounter.
I'm not sold on the effectiveness of yawing 5.56, but I will say the uniting factor in getting 5.56 to kill people outside of its fragmentation range seems to be putting lots of holes in very important bits. Coincidentally, 5.56 outside of its fragmentation range performs remarkably like NATO 9mm ball does. It punches neat holes, and if you put a lot of them in people and wait awhile they die. Some of the OTM loads tend to do better or do funky things, but the main improvements to 5.56 ammo have been for accuracy (Mk262, M855A1) or increased barrier penetration (MK318, Mk262) or increased stability at range (M855A1, Mk262) or for increased fragmentation range from shorter barrels (Mk262) and not because one yaws or does cartwheels or anything particularly cute.

I'd love to see more testing of softpoint loads at various ranges with standard gel testing. Seems like they might not fragment at close range, but might make better wound cavities at longer distance.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:19 am

crypto wrote:
Gingerbread Man wrote: What else would be killing them?
Well, really, I mean, getting a hole punched into them in the middle of the wilderness is what's killing them.

Well, they didn't die eventually, within minutes kind of dying. Like, giving up the fight because they're bleeding out kind of dying.

I mean, yeah unless someone is also shooting them with a .22LR from 50 feet as a control mechanism you're not going to be able to call it scientific, but they're dying because they got shot center mass and are eventually bleeding out.

I can only relate (Like a douche) these stories. No one I know that was/is a professional had any issue once they hit upper chest or head.

I'm just saying there's a whole lot of peer-reviewed science thats come in over the last 40 years that shows physiologically, the yawing doesnt contribute a whole lot of wounding potential unless it hits one of the non-elastic organs like the liver or kidneys.
I don't know, something is killing these guys past the fragmentation threshold. Killing them in a violent way, and the 5.56 is doing it. Granted, almost universally they say it's crap past 500-600 yds but none of them cursed the M4 or the 5.56. The only thing I can observe the bullet doing is yawing, so that must be doing something.

The 7.62x39mm is a yawing round, and it works very well. Therefore, yawing has to do something. What that something is, I don't know.

Final point, the 5.56 is not a 22LR. It performs well and almost everyone that has fought with it according to a bunch of different Army studies tha tthe troops using it are happy with it. Furthering comments is that it does hit at 500-600 yds. No 22LR is going to do that, well, some broz on Youtube but yeah...

Ok, final final point: If the 5.56 sucks how come people keep dying from it? The study says it shouldn't be, it should suck like a 22LR but we have a massive body of evidence over the course of 15 years of war that clearly shows the round works at all ranges.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:39 am

Autopsy in a war zone? Ill put that one alongside hens teeth and unicorns.
Enough holes with a .22 is still fatal. But I don't see anyone taking that to war.

This thread has steered rather clear of the original sentiment.

Bullet placement still kills and 9mm/5.56 weigh the same and most peeps prefer a 5.56 to a 45 in there carbines :-) oh and .45 is damn heavy

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:44 am

Dioxin wrote:Autopsy in a war zone? Ill put that one alongside hens teeth and unicorns.
Enough holes with a .22 is still fatal. But I don't see anyone taking that to war.
Not a bunch of 22 caliber holes. One, from a 5.56. There are liveleak videos if you have the stomach for them of people getting hit with 5.56 and not getting up at longer than fragementation threshold ranges.

There is no denying the massive body of evidence gleened from 15 years of war, the 5.56 is doing it's job. Full stop. You don't need an autopsy to prove death.



Because I'm a douche.
If yawing doesn't cause a wound, explain this:
http://s881.photobucket.com/user/mickey ... b.gif.html

Further evidence of the affects of yawing:
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/14-gen ... -pics.html
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/14-gen ... -pics.html
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/14-gen ... -pics.html

True the 5.56 yaws to a lesser extent however, it still causes a grave wound.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by woodsghost » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:04 pm

Gingerbread Man wrote:
I can only relate (Like a douche) these stories. No one I know that was/is a professional had any issue once they hit upper chest or head.
Well, if you hit someone in the head or lungs with an ice pick, a fast enough BB gun, a .22, a 7.62x51, or a 50 BMG, you will kill them. Those are pretty fatal shots, and in this case you are indicating that shot placement is critical, not caliber of choice.
Gingerbread Man wrote: Ok, final final point: If the 5.56 sucks how come people keep dying from it? The study says it shouldn't be, it should suck like a 22LR but we have a massive body of evidence over the course of 15 years of war that clearly shows the round works at all ranges.
I have not seen any indication that people who do not receive medical attention can routinely shrug off 5.56 or .22LR. As I have read, it can take up to 3 days to die from .22LR, so get medical attention. Sometimes it takes less than that. Probably a lot less if you are hit in the lungs or head.


BTW: 7.62x39: the M43 version has about 9 inches of travel before beginning to yaw. So does most 7.62x54 and as I understand, most 7.62x51. The AK developed a reputation as reliable but not very lethal. At one point I believe it was known as the most survivable of rounds to be hit with. Then the Russians, Chinese, and Yugoslavians developed versions which yaw/tumble at 3-4 inches. Lethality went through the roof. Mostly because of permanent tissue destruction.

For the best information on lethality in carbines, PCCs, rifles, shotguns, and everything else, look to the hog hunters. Those shooting pigs over 100 lbs. Look at what they prefer and what they ignore. Then go and do likewise. Or do as I do: pick a round, stick with it cuz it works good enough (even if it is not "the best"), and participate in interesting discussions. When I have money I will invest in a more effective round than the 5.45x39. I have no illusions as to it's utility. It is "good enough" and that is all I need.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by LJ126 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:16 pm

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if I rehash anything that's already been brought into discussion.

The correct BOB firearm is dependent on a number of factors, and you're going to need to ask yourself a sequence of questions to find out what would be best for you. To where are you bugging out? Through where are you going? How far are you traveling? What means of conveyance are being/will be utilized? Are you anticipating resistance along the way, and is this anticipation reasonable? What level of armament and proficiency are you likely to encounter? Is a pistol-caliber carbine adequate for these anticipated threats? Do you have a support network that will be traveling with you? How will they be armed, and what is their level of proficiency? Will you be hunting as a means of acquiring food? What game? Are their caches, safe houses and rendezvous points along the way? How many, and what can be used for resupply?

When determining caliber: What is everyone else (friend and perceived foe alike) using? What is your budget? What is your level of fitness? Are you in bear country? Humping a .308 "battle rifle" or military surplus .30 caliber rifle and a bunch of ammunition isn't for the faint of heart, or clogged of artery!

IMO, a pistol is probably more than adequate for a BOB weapon. That said, if you've made the decision to carry a rifle (based on the above factors considered), you may as well carry a rifle chambered in a rifle caliber. It does everything a sub-caliber carbine does, but better. 55 grain 5.56x45 is even lighter in weight than many pistol cartridges, including all 9mm loads exceeding 115 grains, and all .40 and .45 loads. And 5.56x45 in no uncertain terms more effective than a common pistol caliber.

And no, you needn't necessarily use a dedicated chest rig to run a rifle. But that's an entirely different can of worms.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Stercutus » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:08 pm

This is a first for me. I have not seen a 5.56 poodle round argument in a PCC thread before. I wonder if I can get a PCC in 5.56? :oh:
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Sworbeyegib » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:28 pm

Stercutus wrote:This is a first for me. I have not seen a 5.56 poodle round argument in a PCC thread before. I wonder if I can get a PCC in 5.56? :oh:
I'm also trying to wrap my head around how this divulged into a 5.56 debate too. I thought ZS got that out of it's system awhile ago.

I think that if you do not trust the terminal performance of FMJ 5.56/.223 ammo, then don't use FMJ ammo. Plenty of other 5.56/.223 ammo options out there at the same price point of defense 9mm ammo.
**Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't**

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