Pistol Carbine for BOB

[azrael99]

it used to be available, but then a kid used one in a shootout in a University and gained quite a bad reputation.

never saw another one in my area so..........

[eeb]

Swiss Mountains? I'd rather have just about any rifle other than a PCC. You can hardly go wrong with a PE90 either. It is one heck of a rifle. Nothing wrong with the K31 either.

Look at it this way; would you buy a car that can only go 5KPH under the maximum speed limit or would you rather have one that can go faster even though you only "plan" on going 5KPH under the speed limit everywhere you go? Cause you may be in a situation where you would want to go faster.

My BOB wouldnt get me to the mountains, and if I were packing for the mountains I'd be taking my skis!

I'm not sure the Car analogy works well with guns, some people have high performance cars but only the skill to take Granny out for bingo.

Similarly, some people have high performance rifles, but only the skill to shoot to 100 meters.

[Dioxin]

You might want to have a look at the Brügger&Thomet models TP9 and APC9.

If you are looking for compact rifle caliber gun, check out the SAN SG 553 rifle series or the kinky SG 553 R which actually uses AK47 ammo and mags.

Yeah I've seen the APC9, I might end up hiring it from my Pistol Club for a play.
I'm very familiar with the SG55* line of rifles, as this is what I tend to shoot at 300m.

5.56 is more plentiful here than AK rounds.

I think the conversation about whether a PCC is practical has been blown out of the water. 5.56 outperforms 9mm and 45 ACP on anything past spitting distance. And when you factor in weight
2x 9mm == 2x 5.56 == 1x 45 ACP
We definitely drop the 45 ACP, but then given those numbers I'd rather have a 5.56 ready to rock than a 9mm if my life depended on it.

Similarly, some people have high performance rifles, but only the skill to shoot to 100 meters.

Whoosh!

Yeah, that stuff gets expensive really quickly.

I have to factor out cost very quickly due to swiss pricing
WaltherPPQ $1150
Glock 21 $1150
Sub-2000 $1000
Kriss_vector $2500
SG556-DMR $2600
SG553 $3200
SG550 $3600

[clarence]

How about a bull pup?

Tavor, FN2000, Styer Aug?

[The_bangfrog_MK23]

While those Bullpubs sound cool, they are waaaay overpriced in Switzerland, and getting spare parts is going to be a royal and undemocratic pain in the behind.
The Steyr MIGHT be the notable exception to the parts-problem, but it certainly rips a mayor hole in your purse anyways.

Shooting and collecting firearms isn't a cheap hobby here in Switzerland. Sadly.

Dioxin, should you still be interested in getting one of those bullpubs, you might want to check out http://www.topguns.ch/, he usually can make dreams come true and is a little less expensive than most other gunshops.

[Dioxin]

Here is a little inkling into my weapon choices.
In my greasy mitts:
Wather PPQ M1 (Well ok its mine, but it cant leave the club)

On Order:
Sig Sauer X-Five Supermatch

In the pipeline:
Sig 550 (Stgw 90)
7.5 x55 Swiss Target Rifle

Dreaming:
Kriss Vector with EoTech
Sig 556DMR
Single Stack 45acp

Cold Day in Hell :
MR308 with OSS Suppressor
DSR-1 in 338

[woodsghost]

Cold Day in Hell :
MR308 with OSS Suppressor
DSR-1 in 338

Well, if you lived in Finland......

[DementedDigital]

Been lurking for some time but thought I'd like to get opinions on an Idea.

How do you guys feel about a Pistol Carbine in a Bug Out scenario where the only wildlife to be worried about is the 2 legged variety or smaller.
I'm currently looking into a Kriss Vector as an option, what I very much like is the compatibility between the Vector and Glock Magazines
sharing the same ammo and magazines is a big plus. If either the glock or vector has to be discarded I can still retain the ammo and mags.

I also like the logistics of only needing a single ammo supply.

My only sticking point for the moment is the calibre, I personally would much rather have it in 9mm due to carry capacity.
(Per lump of weight 9mm provides more rounds) I'm very much in the placement over power belief.
Also I find the glock 21 too big with a double stack 45 mag, I can shoot it just fine so may just bite the bullet and get them.

One of the reasons why I feel an M4 isnt suitable, is that if I'm in a pitched battle out to 100m and beyond, I've done something stupid.
I'm more than willing to withdraw and lose the battle, than have to patch up holes in myself.

The compactness and weight is also something I'm fond of, but I really would need to try it out to ensure the folding stock isn't springy.

For the moment I have neither the Kriss Vector nor the Glock 21, but I'm proposing them as a combo for a BOB usage.
I've used the Glock, but not the Kriss.

Why not consider an MGI Hydra? You could carry it configured to fire 9mm from Glock magazines, and also carry the barrel, bolt, and magwell for something with a little more reach.

[Dioxin]

Why not consider an MGI Hydra? You could carry it configured to fire 9mm from Glock magazines, and also carry the barrel, bolt, and magwell for something with a little more reach.

Interesting system no doubt, but I feel we have made the PCC for Survival extinct.

When we consider that a 5.56 round and a 9mm weigh the same, why would you ever choose the 9mm out of a carbine?
Only if you REALLY had to!

The first weapon into my BOB is going to be a pistol, its concealable and lightweight.
Next up would be a 5.56 Carbine.

If that doesnt do the job... I've gone to war!

[clarence]

When we consider that a 5.56 round and a 9mm weigh the same, why would you ever choose the 9mm out of a carbine?

Setting aside the reduced flash/bang (you may favor a handgun over carbine indoors anyway), the 9mm is usually more easily concealed and carried in a BOB.

For example:

Beretta CX4 29.7", 5.75#
Beretta ARX100 35.5", 6.75#

[Dioxin]

Sig 553 is pretty easy to conceal imo.

Sig Sauer 553: 5.56mm

Overall length
822 mm/32,36" (LB), 730 mm/28,74" (SB)

Length with butt stowed
593 mm/23,35" (LB), 501 mm/19,72" (SB)

Barrel length LB (with flash hider)
347 mm/13,66"

Barrel length SB (without flash hider)
227 mm/8,94"

Weapon weight
3,4 kg/7.5 lbs. (LB), 3,2 kg/7.1 lbs.(SB)

[DementedDigital]

Why not consider an MGI Hydra? You could carry it configured to fire 9mm from Glock magazines, and also carry the barrel, bolt, and magwell for something with a little more reach.

Interesting system no doubt, but I feel we have made the PCC for Survival extinct.

When we consider that a 5.56 round and a 9mm weigh the same, why would you ever choose the 9mm out of a carbine?
Only if you REALLY had to!

The first weapon into my BOB is going to be a pistol, its concealable and lightweight.
Next up would be a 5.56 Carbine.

If that doesnt do the job... I've gone to war!

It's easier to suppress 9mm, you can get subsonic loads, less recoil for faster follow up shots, and the 9mm takes up less space. I'm not convinced that I'll ever need anything more energetic than a 9mm, unless rioting comes to my front door. That said, I wouldn't prefer a pistol caliber carbine over a rifle caliber, but that's not stopping me from getting the 9mm conversion kit for the Hydra!

[Dioxin]

It's easier to suppress 9mm, you can get subsonic loads, less recoil for faster follow up shots, and the 9mm takes up less space. I'm not convinced that I'll ever need anything more energetic than a 9mm, unless rioting comes to my front door. That said, I wouldn't prefer a pistol caliber carbine over a rifle caliber, but that's not stopping me from getting the 9mm conversion kit for the Hydra!

If suppression were a feasible option for me I'd already have the Kriss Vector
45 acp can usually be suppressed with standard ammo. (De Lisle Carbine would also float my boat )

Although I'm sure someone is going to poke me with a stick and mention flavour of the month 300 BLK!

[DementedDigital]

It's easier to suppress 9mm, you can get subsonic loads, less recoil for faster follow up shots, and the 9mm takes up less space. I'm not convinced that I'll ever need anything more energetic than a 9mm, unless rioting comes to my front door. That said, I wouldn't prefer a pistol caliber carbine over a rifle caliber, but that's not stopping me from getting the 9mm conversion kit for the Hydra!

If suppression were a feasible option for me I'd already have the Kriss Vector
45 acp can usually be suppressed with standard ammo. (De Lisle Carbine would also float my boat )

Although I'm sure someone is going to poke me with a stick and mention flavour of the month 300 BLK!

What, no love for the .450 Bushmaster?!

[Dioxin]

What, no love for the .450 Bushmaster?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.450_Bushmaster

from the Wiki its a Supersonic round...no love from me for an exotic round either.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

It's easier to suppress 9mm, you can get subsonic loads, less recoil for faster follow up shots, and the 9mm takes up less space. I'm not convinced that I'll ever need anything more energetic than a 9mm, unless rioting comes to my front door. That said, I wouldn't prefer a pistol caliber carbine over a rifle caliber, but that's not stopping me from getting the 9mm conversion kit for the Hydra!

If suppression were a feasible option for me I'd already have the Kriss Vector
45 acp can usually be suppressed with standard ammo. (De Lisle Carbine would also float my boat )

Although I'm sure someone is going to poke me with a stick and mention flavour of the month 300 BLK!

What, no love for the .450 Bushmaster?!

.458 SOCOM is the subsonic thumper.

[clarence]

Sig 553 is pretty easy to conceal imo.

Sig Sauer 553: 5.56mm

Overall length
822 mm/32,36" (LB), 730 mm/28,74" (SB)

Length with butt stowed
593 mm/23,35" (LB), 501 mm/19,72" (SB)

Barrel length LB (with flash hider)
347 mm/13,66"

Barrel length SB (without flash hider)
227 mm/8,94"

Weapon weight
3,4 kg/7.5 lbs. (LB), 3,2 kg/7.1 lbs.(SB)

...an SBR(Pistol or rifle calibre) for us is easy...

Does make a difference, yeah.

[Dioxin]

I got a chance to shoot the Kriss Vector in pistol + folding stock configuration.... ITS TOO SHINEY!!!

Really need to put more than 5 rounds through it for a good feeling about it. But first impressions on the weapon system are good, but the iron sights are really sucky. I dont really have a problem forking over the cash on a decent Red Dot tho.

That Diamond pattern thing just doesnt work for me.

Recoil was hardly noticable, but I dont really notice recoil from 9mm carbines either.

Maybe I can sneak it into my GFs BOB instead of mine but but but she would steal my shiney!

[Das Sheep]

"Fighting" .223/5.56 is much cheaper (.30-.50 cents a round) than "Fighting" 9mm (.50-$2 a round, or more).

.223 is easier to be accurate with because its reasonably strait for 300 yards or so, within a few inches.

9mm starts dropping quickly and drops low fast

Magazines for most 5.56 weapons run about $10-$15 dollars for the best, which in my opinion is a Magpul Pmag.

Magazines for most 9mm weapons run $25-$50, or more.

A GOOD fighting 9mm carbine is about the same price as a fighting .223/5.56 carbine.


A 5.56 has more range, goes through stuff better, and you do not need to be nearly as accurate because it hits MUCH harder and creates a MUCH larger temporary wound cavity which means that if you get close to the heart you shut some one down, vice with 9mm you basically need to nail them right in the heart to turn it off.

Someone shot with 5.56 is generally going to suffer a much worse wound and die more quickly or be less inclined to continue being a jerk than someone shot with 9mm.

5.56 puts neat little holes in IIIA and below armor, 9mm leaves nasty bruises and puts no holes in any body armor.

I am not saying that pistol caliber carbines are bad weapons, and I think 9mm performs about as well as .40 or .45 out of them, and I would not want to be shot or shot at with one, but there are very few situations where a 5.56 weapon (or 7.62 weapon) are not going to be better than the 9mm.

Additionally, if it matters, the 5.56 weapon is probably going to be worlds cheaper, especially if you prep lots of ammo and practice with it, than the 9mm.

[Dioxin]

A 5.56 has more range, goes through stuff better, and you do not need to be nearly as accurate because it hits MUCH harder and creates a MUCH larger temporary wound cavity which means that if you get close to the heart you shut some one down, vice with 9mm you basically need to nail them right in the heart to turn it off.

Someone shot with 5.56 is generally going to suffer a much worse wound and die more quickly or be less inclined to continue being a jerk than someone shot with 9mm.

5.56 puts neat little holes in IIIA and below armor, 9mm leaves nasty bruises and puts no holes in any body armor.

[NEEDS CITATION]


As we are discussing Carbine length weapons it only fair we apply that liberally and evenly.
5.56 rounds out of carbine length barrels have an issue with reaching sufficient velocity to tumble on impact. So instead they punch a very clean hole. A 5.56 hole is much smaller than 9mm and thus I would argue that bullet placement still counts for both. For the 5.56 example I'm going to be citing military munition in military arms. Home brew ammo is a completely different ball game.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

please review page 7, below 730m/s the bullet is intact, above that to 800m/s very little debris.
and above that the bullet disintergrates.

further citation of the m855 velocity out of differing barrel lengths

http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093

Velocity drops rapidly as the barrel length decreases, especially below 10 inches where the velocity drops below 2,500 fps. M855 bullets traveling below 2,500 fps when impacting a target will not produce a lethal wound channel.

This is velocity at the barrel. I'm sure if someone felt so inclined they could work out the minimum barrel lengths for engagements at 100,200 and 300m that would cause the bullets to tumble.

Regards

[Gingerbread Man]

Here's an excellent gel test clearly showing the 5.56 yawing as opposed to fragmenting. The 5.56 does not poke holes. It yaws violently and easily observed in the gel that the wound channel is not a straight line hole but instead a grave wound.



22LR for comparison.

[woodsghost]

As I view the Brass Fletcher video, I see the round traveling in a line. A curved line, sure, but the tip is forward, there is no tumbling throughout the whole path. We are distracted by the temporary displacement of gel block mass into what would be a temporary wound cavity. My own reading has led me to be less trustful of temporary wound cavities or hydrostatic shock (some tissues react well to stretching, some do not though). I"m much more confident in permanent wound cavities, but I don't have any sort of monopoly on "Truth." We all just need to do our own reading. I'm also always open to further reading on hydrostatic shock and temporary/permanent wound cavities.

Now, what do we mean when we say "carbine length barrels?" 10.5 inches? 12 inches? 27-30 cm?

Heavier 5.56 rounds have fragmentation below the normal 2700fps threshold. MK 262 (77 gr) is supposed to wreck your day down to 2100 fps, from what I was seeing.

Some reading:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_department.html

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_heavier.html

You can look up ballistic gel tests of MK 262 with various barrel lengths. There are also charts that give you velocities at different distances and fragmentation thresholds through different barrel lengths.

Just something to consider.

[Dioxin]

Here's an excellent gel test clearly showing the 5.56 yawing as opposed to fragmenting. The 5.56 does not poke holes. It yaws violently and easily observed in the gel that the wound channel is not a straight line hole but instead a grave wound.

violent yawing doesnt occur below 2500 m/s feet per second.

[Gingerbread Man]

Here's an excellent gel test clearly showing the 5.56 yawing as opposed to fragmenting. The 5.56 does not poke holes. It yaws violently and easily observed in the gel that the wound channel is not a straight line hole but instead a grave wound.

violent yawing doesnt occur below 2500 m/s

Proof? I and a whole load of dead folks disagree. If it's not a deadly wound, then why do people die from it, even below 2500 feet per second, 2500 meters per second properly converted is 8202 Feet Per Second.

As I view the Brass Fletcher video, I see the round traveling in a line. A curved line, sure, but the tip is forward, there is no tumbling throughout the whole path.

I didn't say tumbling. I have never said tumbling. I said yawing.

We are distracted by the temporary displacement of gel block mass into what would be a temporary wound cavity.

We never saw the permanent cavity because the video ended before it could be seen. However, if you notice that block was airbourne for a good amount of time. I bet that wound would cause at least serious redness and mild swelling.

My own reading has led me to be less trustful of temporary wound cavities or hydrostatic shock (some tissues react well to stretching, some do not though).

I can't say with 100% certainty that there is a large cavity however the back of the block is blown out and shredded. Again, probably just a welt with minor irritation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsR ... F5E8BD7455

Here's one at 210 yard with a 53 gr bullet. Minor abrasion.