Pistol Carbine for BOB

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:53 pm

In Category 2 and 3 I expect to be able to match my weaponry to the threat at hand.

This thread was more a thought experiment on the best practice for a BOB thats left by the door ready to go, a category 1 evac.

Category 2 and 3 give me the option to arm my GF with the 9mm pistol and the PCC in 45, and me the pistol in 45 and the 5.56 AR.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:01 pm

woodsghost wrote:For the sake of options, have you considered getting a pistol and putting it in a rifle stock? *SNIP*
A stock on a pistol I consider a range toy, compare the weight of a rig like that vs a full PCC, is the weight worth the effort?

I also now cant holster my pistol.

Personally I can hit a head sized target at 25m and a chest size at 50m with a Glock 19, I dont feel that a Pistol Stock option can extend that significantly.
(This is after 6 weeks of training once a week, I intend to keep up this regime of pistol once a week)

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Sworbeyegib
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Sworbeyegib » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:34 pm

Dioxin wrote:
woodsghost wrote:For the sake of options, have you considered getting a pistol and putting it in a rifle stock? *SNIP*
A stock on a pistol I consider a range toy, compare the weight of a rig like that vs a full PCC, is the weight worth the effort?

I also now cant holster my pistol.

Personally I can hit a head sized target at 25m and a chest size at 50m with a Glock 19, I dont feel that a Pistol Stock option can extend that significantly.
(This is after 6 weeks of training once a week, I intend to keep up this regime of pistol once a week)
In all fairness... isn't a short barreled PCC just a stock on a pistol? All you are really adding to the equation is a stock to stabilize shots and a platform to mount an optic.

And I know I'm just being a broken record. But there is a piece of advice that's been floating around this board for awhile. I think it might have been Dave_M or Doc Fab that first said it, but it's a really great and sound piece of advice when concerning choosing what you carry. It's one of the best pieces of advice I've ever read on this site. I'm paraphrasing and hope I don't forget important parts, but here it is...
"Unless you are the aggressor in a gun fight, you don't get to choose many things. You don't get to choose when the fight happens. You don't get to choose where the fight happens. Which also means you don't get to choose the terrain, the available cover or the available escape routes. You don't get to choose what distance the aggressors are going to be. You don't get to choose how many of them there will be, what kind of weapons they will be using, their level of training or their mindset.

The fact is, as the non-aggressor, you are already at a huge disadvantage. The only things you do have control over, is the type of weapon/equipment you are carrying and the level of training you have previously committed to yourself with that platform. So choosing and training with the most capable platform becomes a crucial part in preparing yourself for a violent encounter."
What I take away from this is that in the event of ever needing to use your firearm defensively, you already have the deck stacked against you in almost every way possible. If things are so bad you actually do need a long gun, I'd say statistics and unlikelihood have already been thrown out the window.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by clarence » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:20 am

woodsghost wrote:For the sake of options, have you considered getting a pistol and putting it in a rifle stock?
Your reviewer: At the exact same length as the Hera Triarii, I would take Brent’s Storm over my SBR Glock 19 in the Triarii any day.

http://shortbarrelshepherd.com/flex-you ... t-entry-9/

And that before making an SBR of the CX4. Google "optimized CX4."
Dioxin wrote:Getting 5.7 ammo after the proverbial has hit the fan would be like looking for pixie dust, so that means you are limited to what you can carry, which can be easily classified as "not enough"
ZS generally assumes you will be limited to the ammo you have on hand when SHTF. 5.7 is very lightweight.
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
zero11010 wrote: What do you imagine shooting at where a 9mm round just won't do?
People more than 50-100m away, people wearing any type or armor, people behind most any type of barrier, and there's the issue of effective velocity windows, or, at what ranges does your 9mm load from a carbine barrel perform well and at what ranges does it turn back into a ballistically "meh" FMJ?
A 9mm carbine with a 25 yard zero is something like +1.2" at 50 yards, +.9" at 75, -1.1 at 100, -5.1" at 125, and -11.1" at 150. Within a 4 MOA dot to 100 yards, a dot over at 125, and two dots over at 150.

And from a 16" barrel the 9mm has the energy at 100 yards something like that of a 9mm pistol at the muzzle.
Sworbeyegib wrote:
"The only things you do have control over, is the type of weapon/equipment you are carrying..."
I tend to imagine scenarios where open carry is not possible (or provocative) and so believe the carried PCC (concealed in a backpack) trumps the full-size rifle left at home. I assume Dioxin does as well?
Dioxin wrote:Perhaps the only doomsday scenario I can depicted with necessitating an Assault Rifle or greater would be "Occupied Resistance" in this scenario I'm going to opt for a silenced rifle in a minimum of 308 and being a damn long distance from the target.
I can imagine scenarios where I'd feel morally obligated to defend others at a distance. That's why I'm planning to add a bolt-action .308 to my more self-defensive PCC (and because: shiny).

As you don't seem preparing for home defense, you might consider Sworbeyegib's point about those things you don't get to choose.

Maybe something like a SBR AR .300BLK? Both concealable and more capable?
Last edited by clarence on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:11 am

I think the most compelling point so far that made the idea sound completely dumb was the weight issue.

9mm Luger
Hornady 115gr JHP/XTP
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.63

.223/5.56X45
(milsurp) British Radway Green SS109 63gr
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.69

.45ACP
230gr Winchester Ball
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.69

A load out of 100 spare 9mm and 200 spare 5.56 weighed in at 8 pounds(8.01).
the equivalent 45ACP load out is 170 rounds.

Weight of the tool
3.5 Kg for Sig 553 347 mm barrel
3.3 Kg for Kriss Vector 406 mm barrel

200grams is an extra 10 rounds of 45 acp :roll:

When we then add energy to the equation
The Firing Line wrote: Comparing a .45 with a 5.56 is like comparing a pea shooter to a .22. the rifle bullet is in a different league.

.45 ACP 165 gr (11 g) Federal JHP
320 m/s (1,060 ft/s)
559 J (412 ft·lbf)

5.56 mm
940 m/s (3,100 ft/s)
1,767 J (1,303 ft·lbf)
(stats stolen from here http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507998 )
But I guess a Sig 553 with a Long barrel is pretty shiny too :clap:

Cheers for all the thoughts and info peeps.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by clarence » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:56 am

5.7x28mm
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 1.4

Weight of the tool
2.8 Kg for PS90 406 mm barrel

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/0 ... -fnh-ps90/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/0 ... ive-seven/
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Sworbeyegib » Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:12 am

Not to mention, you already seem to like the 9mm over the .45. So there is no sense in making a two way compromise by having both guns chamered for a round you would rather not be carrying.

And for your conditions in which the long arm is stowed, and you keeping a lower profile by just rocking your pistol with regular capacity magazines on your belt... you now have a 12 round capacity advantage (three 17 round magazines vs three 13 rounders). That's almost the same as having a 4th .45acp magazine on your kit.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:06 am

While I'm sure the 5.7 x28mm is a fine round. I'm not convinced by its Civilian merits.

While we havent really talked about cost in a determining factor, I was mostly refering to cost of the firearm, which I deem as a sunk cost no matter what. Ammo costs however are quite an important metric for me. As they determine how much I can practice

I intend to shoot pistols at least once a week, raising up to twice a week if I go competitive.
I would put this in the ballpark of 5,000-10,000 rounds a year.

Rifles I'm a little more limited, I can shoot once a week for only maybe 6 months of the year, due to range availability. so lets say 25 visits and 60 rounds a visit. I'll ignore the fact for the moment that P90 wont reach out to the 300m range I have available and concentrate on costs.

This puts me at 1500 rifle rounds a year.

5.7 x 28mm would cost me 350 CHF per 250
Minimum quantity required 6,500 cost 9,100 CHF
Maximum quantity required 11,500 cost 16,100 CHF

9mm would cost me 1,575 CHF per 5,000
Minimum quantity required 5,000 cost 1,575 CHF
Maximum quantity required 10,000 cost 3,150CHF

5.56 would cost me 0.40 CHF a round (Military Supplies)
Quantity required 1,500 cost 600 CHF

As an aside
.22 LR CCI Minimag
Energy: 190j
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 0.75
Cost to me: 1,240 CHF per 10,000

.22 LR CCI Stinger
Energy: 265j
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 0.75
Cost to me: 2,100 CHF per 10,000

5.7 x28mm energy is 364 j
9mm energy is 446 j

See Maths can be fun :)

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by clarence » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:13 am

Can you use a 9mm carbine at your pistol range, Dioxin?
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:15 am

clarence wrote:Can you use a 9mm carbine at your pistol range, Dioxin?
Yes but only to 25m. can go up to .50 AE if needed.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by procyon » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:00 am

Any chance you could put in some of your rifle practice time on a .22, since you listed it?
It would be about 1/3 the cost of the 5.56. It won't give you the long range options for practice.
But when it comes down to basics, the .22 will give you the chance to keep up or refine skills.
You seem to indicate that you aren't as confident in your rifle skills. Short range work with a .22 will help.
You can improve stances, breath control, trigger control, natural point of aim, sight picture, sling use, etc while burning up .22 - and those skills will transfer to other longarms.
To include a PCC if you did choose one.
(Ok, around here finding .22 is still hit and miss...)
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:23 am

procyon wrote:Any chance you could put in some of your rifle practice time on a .22, since you listed it?
It would be about 1/3 the cost of the 5.56. It won't give you the long range options for practice.
But when it comes down to basics, the .22 will give you the chance to keep up or refine skills.
You seem to indicate that you aren't as confident in your rifle skills. Short range work with a .22 will help.
You can improve stances, breath control, trigger control, natural point of aim, sight picture, sling use, etc while burning up .22 - and those skills will transfer to other longarms.
To include a PCC if you did choose one.
(Ok, around here finding .22 is still hit and miss...)
To put my shooting and expectation in perspective, I used to shoot competitively 25m prone .22 at a county level in the UK 15 years ago. scores usually in the 92-95% range.

I've progressed from .22 bolt action to 5.56 Semi-auto, and 25m to 300m all with the 15 year gap. I've only shot rifles 4 times this year :) I just need to get back into the swing of it.

But even after a 15 year break I was able, at the very least to hit a man size target at 300m, and on the Swiss Obligatorische Programme scoring 71/85 at the first attempt. I'm a decent shot, but I can do much better.

Range time with rifles is my limiting factor, not cost of munitions.

I'm also not using a personal weapon, still working on the permits.
A personal Walther PPQ in 9mm I'll have access to tonight, an X-Five Supermatch in 9mm for Xmas and a "Black Special" Sig 550 in 5.56 I hope to have by March.
Weapons permits are hindered cos I'm not Swiss and dont have a Firearms Certificate from the UK :(

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by procyon » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:24 am

Dioxin wrote: I used to shoot competitively 25m prone .22 at a county level in the UK 15 years ago. scores usually in the 92-95% range.
Very nice. I coach a local school's 3 position 10m air rifle team.
Prone scores in that range aren't bad at all. :D
The day I can get one to shoot that standing I'm going to do the happy dance. :clap:
Dioxin wrote:I've only shot rifles 4 times this year I just need to get back into the swing of it.
Ouch. Yep, anything that would increase the trigger time is going to improve skill retention.
Dioxin wrote:Range time with rifles is my limiting factor, not cost of munitions.
I've got 6 kids and a wife. Cost is always a factor. :roll:
Dioxin wrote:Weapons permits are hindered cos I'm not Swiss and dont have a Firearms Certificate from the UK


Good luck with that. And best of luck with the getting in range time. With 95's on prone you've got skill. It will just need a bit of polishing.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Sworbeyegib » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:32 am

I know that rifles are usually common in homes, but I'm under the impression that handguns are a bit harder to acquire. Is it a PITA process?
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:48 am

Sworbeyegib wrote:I know that rifles are usually common in homes, but I'm under the impression that handguns are a bit harder to acquire. Is it a PITA process?
Rifles are usually at home due to military service, just handed to them when they join. And they are usually told to take it home. (Slight changes now where they can leave it at the armory)
Pistols dont seem anymore difficult to get hold of, I have to jump through the same hoops for Pistols as for Rifles.

My problem is that I'm a foreigner, and I haven't passed my 5 year point to get a special permit. Once this is done its just a 1-2 week paper pushing turn around and maybe an interview with the local police.

As I've not passed this point I need some paperwork from my Home country, IF I had this it would just be the 1-2 week turnaround as above.
I'm working on something, we'll see if thats acceptable.
Procyon wrote:I've got 6 kids and a wife. Cost is always a factor.
Sounds like a little munitions factory you got there :) get erm reloading!

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by NamelessStain » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:01 am

Dioxin wrote:
Sworbeyegib wrote:I know that rifles are usually common in homes, but I'm under the impression that handguns are a bit harder to acquire. Is it a PITA process?
Rifles are usually at home due to military service, just handed to them when they join. And they are usually told to take it home. (Slight changes now where they can leave it at the armory)
Pistols dont seem anymore difficult to get hold of, I have to jump through the same hoops for Pistols as for Rifles.

My problem is that I'm a foreigner, and I haven't passed my 5 year point to get a special permit. Once this is done its just a 1-2 week paper pushing turn around and maybe an interview with the local police.

As I've not passed this point I need some paperwork from my Home country, IF I had this it would just be the 1-2 week turnaround as above.
I'm working on something, we'll see if thats acceptable.
Procyon wrote:I've got 6 kids and a wife. Cost is always a factor.
Sounds like a little munitions factory you got there :) get erm reloading!
Pretty interesting. Keep us informed please. I might have to add Switzerland to my list of countries to live in :clownshoes:
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:08 am

NamelessStain wrote:Pretty interesting. Keep us informed please. I might have to add Switzerland to my list of countries to live in :clownshoes:
For the moment the Pistol Club has agreed to own them on my behalf (I've still paid for them), I can still use them, but they cannot leave the club. Until that is, I get the proper authorisation.

Which for now is perfectly fine, at least I get to practice. :clap:

As the Rifle club doesnt actually sell rifles, this is more problematic, but the range doesnt open again until March or April so I have time to arrange all this.

NamelessStain, as you may be American you could probably get away with just importing your weapons if you ever moved here. 8-)

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by milesindefilade » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:04 pm

I've been thinking about a pistol caliber carbine for years. Tried the SUB 2000 and it just wasn't rugged enough and 5 MOA at 100 just wasn't much fun.

Sig has the new MPX in a pistol with a forearm brace that looks very encouraging. The right size and looks to be functional, especially with the short barrel.

I think at the end of the day a 5.56 carbine or similar wins the day, but I've just always wanted a cool pistol caliber carbine.

So far as common ammo, I think having two identical pistols makes more sense than a rifle/pistol combo, but that's just my thought.

It'll take a lot willpower to avoid getting a MPX pistol if I'm ever able.
Please punctuate everything I say with "IMHO."

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by azrael99 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:26 pm

i'm myself interested about a Kel-Tec sub-200 in 40 s&w as a backpack gun
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by clarence » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:23 am

The MPX would be very nice in .357 SIG.

Not inexpensive though: $1,700 (on sale, with brace), $65 mags.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by procyon » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:09 pm

Dioxin wrote:
procyon wrote: I've got 6 kids and a wife. Cost is always a factor.
Sounds like a little munitions factory you got there get erm reloading!
They do reload (although the 10 y/o girl requires supervision). It is just that if they load it - they will shoot it.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by The_bangfrog_MK23 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:28 pm

You might want to have a look at the Brügger&Thomet models TP9 and APC9.

If you are looking for compact rifle caliber gun, check out the SAN SG 553 rifle series or the kinky SG 553 R which actually uses AK47 ammo and mags.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by azrael99 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:35 pm

the main problem for people living in Canada is that we don't have much choice as for non-restricted firearm using handgun caliber ammo

other than the sub-2000, Kriss Vektor, BP-9 and stuff like that. all are quite expensive. even the sub-2000 you can't find under 600 $
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by The_bangfrog_MK23 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:02 pm

Yeah, that stuff gets expensive really quickly.

Say, can you Canadians own the Beretta CX4 Storm pistol carbine in 9mm? It uses the same mags as the Beretta 92x series and offers nice ergonomics and a good barrell-length-to-overall-length ratio. Might that be an option?
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