Pistol Carbine for BOB

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by The Twizzler » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:25 pm

I haven't read the whole thread but did you ever consider some older carbines line the Americcan 30 Caliber M1 or the French Bethier maybe even the Austrian Steyer 8x56 Hungarian. These are are all small but pack a better punch. I might even consider a a Thompson Center Fire single shot.
These come in pistol and rifle calibers from 22 all the way up to 45-70 and can be changed from pistol to carbine to rifle depending on need.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Hiroshima_Morphine » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:31 pm

That's a good point Twizzler.

I feel dumb now for never considering the .30 Carbine anything other than a rifle round. Do you know if anyone makes a handgun for it....

Because I need another gun to separate me from some money. :)
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by quazi » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:06 pm

Ruger made their Blackhawk in .30 Carbine for years, but I'm not sure if they still do.

The AMT Automag III was in .30 Carbine, but I'm guessing that has some collector's value now and the price is probably really high.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:44 am

With a decent barrel, .357 can hang with .30 Carbine. .30 Carbine from an 18" barrel, 110gr bullet is about 1900-2000fps. .357 Mag from an 18" barrel, about the same, but with 125gr or heavier. I think the .357 is gonna give you more drag with most loads (I hear the LeveRevolution stuff doesn't leave as much room for powder, so it might require some finesse to get the velocity) but not so much that you couldn't make hits with it.

At that point, though, you're toting a 6-7lb rifle, albeit a quick shooter with manageable recoil and a 9+ capacity. A "Mare's leg" pistol gets you less weight and bulk, but less muzzle velocity and stability. A revolver, the same.

If you live in an area where animals outrank people, or want a solid survival rifle at a minimum weight, a Contender carbine or pistol would work. I have a pistol frame with .44 Mag and .22LR barrels, and that's a combo good for anything short of a charging bear. A stiff .44 hard cast could take the bear, I just don't trust myself to make the shot in time to not get hit by the furry freight train while it dies. The G2 with a standard 12" barrel weighs about 3-3.5lb, and a spare barrel in rimfire (.22, .22 mag, .17) weighs about 2lb. I'll throw mine on the scale in the morning if I remember, as mine are both 10" octagonal barrels. There are also .45/.410 barrels with chokes, but I've never used them enough to know if they overcome the problems that other .45/.410 guns have with spreading the shot and not stabilizing bullets.

For comparison, a G40MOS weighs 2.5lb with an RMR mounted, and the lightest production AR15 is 4.5lb, with the average closer to 7.5lb. A short action bolt like the Ruger American Rifle in .223 or .308 is about 6lb before scope, and the new Howa micro action .223 is promised at 5.75lb with factory weaver bases installed and a 20" barrel.

It always comes down to figuring out whether weight and bulk trump repeating fire for you. A bush pilot rig might be much better off with a .22 Hornet single-shot and a box of ammo, someone deucing out of a city by car would likely find a handgun or SBR more useful, and a hunter might find that a Ruger SP101 provides a good mix of animal and people repellent while not taking up too much space.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Hiroshima_Morphine » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:42 pm

*puts on blinders*

9 NATO and 7.62 NATO

9 NATO and 7.62 NATO

9 NATO and 7.62 NATO


You don't need to diversify your stores, Hiro. You don't need more guns, just bullets.




But you know Hiro, you have always wanted a .357 lever and revolver pair.

No....



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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:21 pm

Hiroshima_Morphine wrote: But you know Hiro, you have always wanted a .357 lever and revolver pair.
This thread may have diverged slightly off topic, but this is wholly within the bounds of the original intent, a single calibre that plays double duty for sidearm and longarm.

Admittedly some of my drivers were Magazine compatibility, but the logistical reductions are perfectly valid too.

Personally I don't think I would choose 357 Mag as the single stock cartridge, but the idea certainly has merit.

Currently I'd swing to 9mm + suitable rifle cartridge (happens to be 7.5x55 Swiss atm due to cheap stores).

If you run out of pistol ammo you've obviously let them get too close :)

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Hiroshima_Morphine » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:15 am

Dioxin wrote:
Hiroshima_Morphine wrote: But you know Hiro, you have always wanted a .357 lever and revolver pair.
This thread may have diverged slightly off topic, but this is wholly within the bounds of the original intent, a single calibre that plays double duty for sidearm and longarm.

Admittedly some of my drivers were Magazine compatibility, but the logistical reductions are perfectly valid too.

Personally I don't think I would choose 357 Mag as the single stock cartridge, but the idea certainly has merit.

Currently I'd swing to 9mm + suitable rifle cartridge (happens to be 7.5x55 Swiss atm due to cheap stores).

If you run out of pistol ammo you've obviously let them get too close :)
My wife and I grew up in Atlanta. And that is where our first house was. As our corcern was bipedal mammals with opposable thumbs which might or might have not been undead, we chose 9 NATO. Not only did it fit our needs, it was cheap and plentiful. And given it's use by military and LE and overall popularity it also had a greater probablity, in our minds, to be available in a PAW. We had / have SA pistols and carbines that use 9mm. There are are plethora of options here, and the differences in them often come down to opinion vs. Opinion.

As we moved to more rural environs (first n. GA mts., now OK, soon AK) we diversified our gun and ammo portfolio to meet our needs. We chose 7.62 NATO for the same reason we previously chose 9 NATO.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by ashwednesday » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:01 pm

AMT had the Automag in .30 cal. I read someplace about someone with that paired up with an M1 carbine, which seems sort of fun and handy. I don't have any info about the Automag besides that article, which means it might be unreliable, hard to find, or both.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Stercutus » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:21 pm

AMT was legendary for making nice looking high cost pistols that jammed frequently. Part of the problem was the designs were not all that great (several designed on the 44 Automag) combined with poor materials machining processes.

If you can find a AMT .30 Carbine pistol and it runs someone has likely done some smithing on it to get it to run reliably. If it doesn't run well you will have to find someone to make it so. Rumors were floated last year that a buyer might try to bring the 44AMP and the 30 Carbine pistol back to market but nothing has come of it yet.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Neville » Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:04 pm

I am a fan of the pistol/carbine pair that share ammo and preferably magazines for some limited scenarios. I have a Kel Tec Sub 2000 which shared mags & ammo with a pistol, both of which are dedicated to my GHB.

I also have a .357 revolver and levergun pair. They're not "dedicated" but can be paired if circumstances warrant, and pose a formidable equation.

I have a CZ 75b 9mm and an AR .556 carbine - both of these have conversion kits for .22 lr - another "pair" that can work as a force multiplier.

What I don't recommend, is having a PCC instead of a legit semi-auto rifle. Please have an AR or AK platform rifle chambered in a traditional rifle round. Get training on it from pros who know what they are doing and who are VERY familiar with these traditional platforms. Then, on your own time, work out how to transfer the skills you acquired in class to your PCC platform. I've written on this at length elsewhere on this board, but it's justifiable on many scores. ( do a search if you're curious).

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by quazi » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:05 pm

Slightly off-topic, but I think it would be cool if someone stated making Mauser C96 clones in .30 carbine. Not practical, but cool. :clownshoes:

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:41 am

Ruger made a Blackhawk in .30 Carbine.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Stercutus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:07 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Ruger made a Blackhawk in .30 Carbine.
Don't they still?

http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelB ... odels.html

I think it is over three pounds loaded.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by ROCK6 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:56 am

The PCC will never replace the versatility of a rifle, even a lightweight AR. However, they still have a ton of value in that most are pretty lightweight, ammo is typically cheaper, ammo can often be matched with your handgun and with longer barrels giving more velocity pistol ammo can be quite potent within typical “combat” ranges (less than a 100 meters).

Pistol calibers are often easier to suppress as well; another consideration for those will to venture into the NFA world.

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To add more another wrinkle, the acceptance of “arm braces” for pistols helps to make an even more compact “PCC” (well, not “C”, maybe “H” for handgun?). I plan to pick up another PC”H” that takes Glock magazines, but I’m quite happy with my CZ Scorpion EVO pistol with folding brace. Sure, this is the poor-man’s SBR without being a rifle, still this is by far more accurate (at distance) than a handgun and much faster follow up shots. They are also much easier to conceal than a PCC or rifle (maybe except for the SUB 2000 when folded), and they don’t suffer the cross-state lines associated with a registered SBR for those that travel. That last piece is where I get the biggest advantage as I shoot often at a range in a neighboring state.

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PCCs or even the pistols with armbraces have their place in bugout plans for some people. Unlike the development and purpose of the M1 Carbine, I don’t see any of these as a replacement to having a handgun, especially a concealable handgun. However, having a longer sight radius, a sturdier platform, longer barrel for increased velocity, easier capability to mount a light and optics and a much easier platform for more consistent and accurate shooting at distances beyond the typical handgun are all factors as to why a PCC (or handgun w/ armbrace) would make a nice addition to a smaller BoB.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by zantra » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:13 pm

dont do it. 223 ammo weighs no more than 9mm ammo, reaches 3-4x as far, hits 3x as hard, will pierce soft armor, A shorty AR can have luminous sights, return to zero scope mount, see thru scope base, drop in trigger job, a .22lr conversion unit, is threaded for silenced use, has a dark, rust-resistant finish, can be had with different barrel lengths and twists, can be had as a stripped lower or an 80% finished lower (ie, nobody knows that you have it). It's one hand usable,, will take down to conceal in a pack, reassemble to fire in 10 seconds, can have an upper and barrel dropped onto it in 10 seconds that makes it fully competitive to 1000 yds. Subsonic 9mm's dont hit hard enough to count on a chest hit, or 3 such, to keep the guy from yelling or shooting. if he does either, having the subsonic rd didnt help any. If need real silence, go with the 60 gr Aquila subsonic .22 rd in the AR's Ciener .22lr conversion unit. You'll need a brain hit to be sure of stopping him and if you get such, the .22lr will suffice. The caliber swap takes just 10 seconds.. There's no real reason to give up the power, range, penetration of the 223 Get a 10.5" long barrel and add 7.5 of silencer to it.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:16 pm

Referring to the topic a few posts up,

I think Magnum Research used to have a .30 Carbine BFR revolver. I checked their site and it is no longer listed... but they do have the BFR in .30-30 and .45-70.

You can forget pistol cal in a rifle, and go with rifle cal in a pistol.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by delarey » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:54 am

If it has to be a carbine, go rifle caliber. If you want really small, get a PCC AR with brace. A 6" or so AR9 with a brace and red dot will still beat the hell out of a handgun for anything past 50 yards, with much less blast and concussion than a rifle caliber round...Unless you go 300blk. That changes the game.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Neville » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:36 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:Referring to the topic a few posts up,

I think Magnum Research used to have a .30 Carbine BFR revolver. I checked their site and it is no longer listed... but they do have the BFR in .30-30 and .45-70.

You can forget pistol cal in a rifle, and go with rifle cal in a pistol.
This doesn't work for a lot of calibers, but something such as .300 BLK is a possible exception. I have an AR pistol in this caliber and it's very controllable, and the .300 BLK does not suffer from velocity loss the way that .556 does with a shorter barrel. It's a plausible GHB/BOB companion.

.30 Carbine suffers from this as well, it loses a lot of velocity in handgun length barrels.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by delarey » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:12 pm

The only drawback to 300blk is availability of ammo, but that is changing. I'd like to see more options and availability of expanding subsonic ammo. About the only offering out there is Lehigh.

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