Pistol Carbine for BOB

[Sworbeyegib]

You could always learn to get good with a shotgun and carry both a pistol and a shotgun.

You can turn to some threads we have on the shotgun, such as the "are shotguns overrated" thread. A shotgun will be better than a PCC at terminal performance and hit capability out to maybe 50 yards with shot, give or take. But capacity is lower, ammo is heavier, and if you have the opportunity to carry a rifle, I would recommend that all day long unless you live in a swamp or jungle which limits engagement ranges to 30 yards.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=103469
Ok so from this thread we can roughly deduce that a 3" Shotgun shell in 12G is equivilent
in weight to 4 9mm rounds.

Does a Shotgun Shell outperform 4 9mm's in terminal performance and hit capability? I'm less convinced.

For Shotgun I would say Hunting > Defense
For PCC I would say Defense > Hunting.
Pick the right tool for the job.

Starting about here:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=113386&start=120

And moving on through the thread, I have to say I think hit probability inside 50 meters is going to be better with a shotgun on a human sized target and with flight control wads, hit probability will probably be better with a shotgun out to probably 80 meters. Unless your target is 76mm by 76mm, then I'm rooting for the 9mm at anything beyond 7 meters.

A good point to discuss is terminal performance. I have more confidence in 4 9mm than one 00 buck past 10 meters, IF all 4 9mm hit. The more misses with 9mm, the more confidence I have in 00 buck. A hit with something is better than a miss with something better, and a 3 inch 00 has a decent chance of tagging a target with 2-4 of the 15 pellets per shot out to a good distance. A really good distance with flight control wads.

A second point to discuss is ease of use. Third point: ease of loading.

Don't read me as saying the shotgun is superior in all respects. I was simply saying it is something to consider and does have advantages. As always though, I"m voting for the rifle.

The problem is, a human sized target won't stay human sized for very long after shots are being fired. People tend to run behind cover (as they should) when shots start flying. Now that human sized target, has become "head and shoulder" sized. At which point, the somewhat random patterning of buckshot is going to be a lot less effective. I think the shotty thread we have going on shows that buckshot is great "minute of torso", but not as great "minute of head" past a certain distance.

[woodsghost]

You could always learn to get good with a shotgun and carry both a pistol and a shotgun.

You can turn to some threads we have on the shotgun, such as the "are shotguns overrated" thread. A shotgun will be better than a PCC at terminal performance and hit capability out to maybe 50 yards with shot, give or take. But capacity is lower, ammo is heavier, and if you have the opportunity to carry a rifle, I would recommend that all day long unless you live in a swamp or jungle which limits engagement ranges to 30 yards.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=103469
Ok so from this thread we can roughly deduce that a 3" Shotgun shell in 12G is equivilent
in weight to 4 9mm rounds.

Does a Shotgun Shell outperform 4 9mm's in terminal performance and hit capability? I'm less convinced.

For Shotgun I would say Hunting > Defense
For PCC I would say Defense > Hunting.
Pick the right tool for the job.

Starting about here:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=113386&start=120

And moving on through the thread, I have to say I think hit probability inside 50 meters is going to be better with a shotgun on a human sized target and with flight control wads, hit probability will probably be better with a shotgun out to probably 80 meters. Unless your target is 76mm by 76mm, then I'm rooting for the 9mm at anything beyond 7 meters.

A good point to discuss is terminal performance. I have more confidence in 4 9mm than one 00 buck past 10 meters, IF all 4 9mm hit. The more misses with 9mm, the more confidence I have in 00 buck. A hit with something is better than a miss with something better, and a 3 inch 00 has a decent chance of tagging a target with 2-4 of the 15 pellets per shot out to a good distance. A really good distance with flight control wads.

A second point to discuss is ease of use. Third point: ease of loading.

Don't read me as saying the shotgun is superior in all respects. I was simply saying it is something to consider and does have advantages. As always though, I"m voting for the rifle.

The problem is, a human sized target won't stay human sized for very long after shots are being fired. People tend to run behind cover (as they should) when shots start flying. Now that human sized target, has become "head and shoulder" sized. At which point, the somewhat random patterning of buckshot is going to be a lot less effective. I think the shotty thread we have going on shows that buckshot is great "minute of torso", but not as great "minute of head" past a certain distance.

I agree. I"m just not sure 4 rounds of 9mm would be much better with probabilities of hitting and such. 30 rounds of 9mm would inspire me with more confidence.

[azrael99]

I agree. I"m just not sure 4 rounds of 9mm would be much better with probabilities of hitting and such. 30 rounds of 9mm would inspire me with more confidence.

unfortunately not a possibility in Canada , max capacity for a handgun or handgun caliber rifle is 10 rounds.

[Sworbeyegib]

I agree. I"m just not sure 4 rounds of 9mm would be much better with probabilities of hitting and such. 30 rounds of 9mm would inspire me with more confidence.

If you have a PCC platform that is capable of holding a 2-3" group at 50 yards, than at least you know that where you aim, is close to where you are going to hit. With buckshot patterns, you are rolling the dice on whether or not your point of aim, is still going to be your point of impact. It really depends on your gun, and the pattern of shot you are shooting. The difference between a 10" spread and a 20" spread is a lot when you consider how many pellets are actually being thrown.

Another reason a shotgun isn't my favorite platform, besides reasons already mentioned, is that shooting/manipulating a shotgun prone is much different than a rifle.

[woodsghost]

I agree. I"m just not sure 4 rounds of 9mm would be much better with probabilities of hitting and such. 30 rounds of 9mm would inspire me with more confidence.

unfortunately not a possibility in Canada , max capacity for a handgun or handgun caliber rifle is 10 rounds.

I hear ya. Which is why I would want a rifle. If I can only reasonably hit someone with one round, I"d want that round to do as much as possible. Plus, many rifle rounds go 800-1000+ meters per second, which I think helps hit probability vs. pistol and shotgun rounds going 300-500 meters per second. I just think a faster round is more likely to hit a target which presents itself for a split second. But I could be way off on that.

Do y'all have mag caps on bolt actions? Or could you have a 20 round bolt action rifle?


Sworbeyegib:

Great points!

[zero11010]

I agree. I"m just not sure 4 rounds of 9mm would be much better with probabilities of hitting and such. 30 rounds of 9mm would inspire me with more confidence.

unfortunately not a possibility in Canada , max capacity for a handgun or handgun caliber rifle is 10 rounds.

I think the solution to your problem is: more magazines. I just weighed 10 rounds of 9mm in a magazine at 8oz even.


I'm curious. You have a BoB. You have a weight for your BoB. How many pounds would you like your weapon component to weigh? Are you looking for a 5 pound solution for a weapon and ammo? Are you looking for a 20 pound solution?

How do you plan to carry the weapon mags, and ammo? I ask because having a carbine is neat. But, if you walk out of the house with it strapped to your chest you're advertising a lot to anyone who sees you. And, if you walk out of the house with it buried in your bag you almost may as well not have it.


Old Nutnfancy video comparing pistol caliber carbines:

He does basic comparisons (rifle caliber carbine, pistol caliber carbine, pistols) talking about a lot of topics.
At about the 23 minute mark he talks specifically about using one of these in a kit where size and weight is a really big deal.

[azrael99]

lever action rifle in handgun caliber can be a good candidate . then we could talk about 45 colt , 357, 38sp and 44 mag and go up to 16 to 18 rounds.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I feel like NutNFancy arguing for PCCs is kind of a great argument against them.

[zero11010]

I feel like NutNFancy arguing for PCCs is kind of a great argument against them.

Could be. Depends on what you're looking for. He gave clear reasoning both for and against the pistol caliber carbine.

Was there something in particular that resonated with you? The information you provided was vague and negative, but largely without substance. I'm interested to hear your thoughts!

[Doctorr Fabulous]

The information you provided was vague and negative, but largely without substance.

That's my main complaint with NutNFancy as well. Long on time, short on content or actual subject expertise.

[zero11010]

The information you provided was vague and negative, but largely without substance.

That's my main complaint with NutNFancy as well. Long on time, short on content or actual subject expertise.

Ok, dude. You win! I'll stop asking you for details.

[Gingerbread Man]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWd_1jCz5WY

Hickok doing a 9mm subgun vs a Glock 17. A quick compare and contrast shows that a Glock 17 with practice* can do just as good as a 9mm PCC. The G17 is easily more concealable than the PCC, by far lighter and much better reliability.

Oh, but that's a subgun! Sure, but PCC (All of them) are essentially doing the same thing, slinging 9mm boolits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkIGtwY ... eLpD-yTtfg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIucOr2 ... eLpD-yTtfg

*Which you're going to have to do anyway with all firearms.

Or one of these? This would make me jelly.

[tedbeau]

I was just talking to a guy at my gun club and he shoots 3-gun using a pistol caliber carbine. I think he said he has the Just Right Carbine in 9mm and he loves it. Uses Glock mags.
He says it performs well and is nicely built.

Granted 3 gun matches are usually not shooting over 25 yards, at least at our club matches. They may be worth checking out.

[tedbeau]

You might want to have a look at the Brügger&Thomet models TP9 and APC9.

If you are looking for compact rifle caliber gun, check out the SAN SG 553 rifle series or the kinky SG 553 R which actually uses AK47 ammo and mags.

Wow I like the looks of the SG 553 R! it looks like the fire selector has a 1, 3, and 30 round position. Does that mean I can get it in full auto, and it also has a burst mode?

[Doctorr Fabulous]

You might want to have a look at the Brügger&Thomet models TP9 and APC9.

If you are looking for compact rifle caliber gun, check out the SAN SG 553 rifle series or the kinky SG 553 R which actually uses AK47 ammo and mags.

Wow I like the looks of the SG 553 R! it looks like the fire selector has a 1, 3, and 30 round position. Does that mean I can get it in full auto, and it also has a burst mode?

If you live in America, no you can't.

[woodsghost]

You might want to have a look at the Brügger&Thomet models TP9 and APC9.

If you are looking for compact rifle caliber gun, check out the SAN SG 553 rifle series or the kinky SG 553 R which actually uses AK47 ammo and mags.

Wow I like the looks of the SG 553 R! it looks like the fire selector has a 1, 3, and 30 round position. Does that mean I can get it in full auto, and it also has a burst mode?

If you live in America, no you can't.

What about dealer samples with letters of interest from law enforcement? Would that work?

[Doctorr Fabulous]

You might want to have a look at the Brügger&Thomet models TP9 and APC9.

If you are looking for compact rifle caliber gun, check out the SAN SG 553 rifle series or the kinky SG 553 R which actually uses AK47 ammo and mags.

Wow I like the looks of the SG 553 R! it looks like the fire selector has a 1, 3, and 30 round position. Does that mean I can get it in full auto, and it also has a burst mode?

If you live in America, no you can't.

What about dealer samples with letters of interest from law enforcement? Would that work?

If you get your FFL, get an SOT, and pay the fees that go with it ($500/yr for the SOT on top of the FFL fees, all the state and local taxes, and the cost of doing business) and assuming you had the appropriate letters, then yes.

So for all intents and purposes, no.

[woodsghost]

If you get your FFL, get an SOT, and pay the fees that go with it ($500/yr for the SOT on top of the FFL fees, all the state and local taxes, and the cost of doing business) and assuming you had the appropriate letters, then yes.

So for all intents and purposes, no.

So what I heard in all this was: woodsghost, if you are good, like really good, I mean like really really good, Santa and the Tooth Fairy might bring you one.


What I thought I understood was that if you jump through all the hoops (FFL, SOT, place of business), live in the right state, and have a Rabbi of sorts high up in a PD, you could get some cool goodies. Thanks for clarifying!

[Doctorr Fabulous]

What about dealer samples with letters of interest from law enforcement? Would that work?

If you get your FFL, get an SOT, and pay the fees that go with it ($500/yr for the SOT on top of the FFL fees, all the state and local taxes, and the cost of doing business) and assuming you had the appropriate letters, then yes.

So for all intents and purposes, no.

So what I heard in all this was: woodsghost, if you are good, like really good, I mean like really really good, Santa and the Tooth Fairy might bring you one.


What I thought I understood was that if you jump through all the hoops (FFL, SOT, place of business), live in the right state, and have a Rabbi of sorts high up in a PD, you could get some cool goodies. Thanks for clarifying![/quote]
It's certainly doable, but you'd have to actually be running a business, paying the taxes on it, posting store hours, you have to meet all environmental laws if you're shooting on the premises, local business laws, are subject to ATF inspections/audits, state and local tax laws, etc.

Doable, but not inasmuch as one person could do it just so they could buy post-samples.

[learntwoshoot]

I would pick a H&K UMP in which ever caliber you desire, for me it would be in .40S&W but your milage may vary

[Boom40mm]

May have been stated before, but what about a Tavor? Bullpup rifle with the ability to fire both calibers of ammunition common to your area.

Pro
-26' OAL
-16.5' barrel so you still maintain decent fps.
-Out of 5.56 (and spent another 899.99usd)? can use 9mm from uzi mags.

Con
-2000usd (without optic!)
-Possible cold weather issues? (it is supposedly fixed)
-Bullpups aren't everyone's cup of tea.
-Trouble finding replacement parts.

[eeb]

You might want to have a look at the Brügger&Thomet models TP9 and APC9.

If you are looking for compact rifle caliber gun, check out the SAN SG 553 rifle series or the kinky SG 553 R which actually uses AK47 ammo and mags.

Wow I like the looks of the SG 553 R! it looks like the fire selector has a 1, 3, and 30 round position. Does that mean I can get it in full auto, and it also has a burst mode?

If you live in America, no you can't.

www.gofundme.com/fmxlnk

Lawsuit happening that might change that. Probably won't, but seems to be our best shot at this point (IMO).

[Doctorr Fabulous]

You might want to have a look at the Brügger&Thomet models TP9 and APC9.

If you are looking for compact rifle caliber gun, check out the SAN SG 553 rifle series or the kinky SG 553 R which actually uses AK47 ammo and mags.

Wow I like the looks of the SG 553 R! it looks like the fire selector has a 1, 3, and 30 round position. Does that mean I can get it in full auto, and it also has a burst mode?

If you live in America, no you can't.

http://www.gofundme.com/fmxlnk

Lawsuit happening that might change that. Probably won't, but seems to be our best shot at this point (IMO).

I have been watching that. If it happens, every spare lower I have is getting a form 1 the day of, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Dioxin]

May have been stated before, but what about a Tavor? Bullpup rifle with the ability to fire both calibers of ammunition common to your area.

Sure, the point we kind of got to with this discussion was that a 5.56 Carbine was a better approach than a 9mm PCC, after that each to his own for which 5.56 Carbine floats your boat
So the 9mm conversion kit isnt worth the hassle.

My personal thoughts
AR-15 : dont like the bolt handle being drawn into my face.
AK-101: no mounting block for rear mounted optics.
Sig-550: only complaint so far is the bolt hold open positon.
Tavor/AUG: not so fond of the trigger design, seems too open.

I started out life as a Bolt Action guy, so I'm used to supporting the rifle with my left arm, while performing manipulations with my right, maybe I just need to use an AR more aggressively in order to get used to it.