"Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Nick Adams » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:51 am

Browning 35 wrote:
Nick Adams wrote: Just because I keep an AR carbine and mags in my bedroom doesn't mean I am thinking I will need to use it to defend myself against intruders inside my house. I have a registered live Maxim belt fed Machine Gun on the top of the bedroom book case and I don't see myself shooting an intruder in my bathroom with it!
Since the Maxim requires a tripod or wheeled carriage and the AR is handheld that's the same sort of difference between a hunting crossbow and a ballista. Not a good comparison.

Costs me nothing to keep the AR in my bedroom so I figure why not. Pretty much my point all along. The only reason I mentioned it was to show I could use it as a HD weapon if I wanted but I wouldn't because in my experience I think other choices would be better and more effective.
Different strokes for different folks. I can accept that answer.
Plus when I watch Chuck Norris in "Invasion USA" on TV I like to look over and see it and know that I am ready to go!
Shouldn't you have akimbo Mac-11's for that? :wink:
Actually my Maxim is a lighter 08/15 which fires off a Bi Pod plus I have a reel/drum on the side that has a cut down 100 rd. belt in it which allows for it to be more portable and permitting what was called "walking fire"....shooting from the hip.
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by 0122358 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:44 am

Redeyes wrote:TTAG is only good for a starting place for news concerning firearms. You have to verify every article. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they are way off. Taking self defense tips from them is only a little better than taking them from Joe Biden. Their hearts are in the right place but some of them have their head up their ass.
Really...damn...Them, Guns.com, and The Firearms Blog are on my daily reading list with my morning cup o joe before work...
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:03 pm

0122358 wrote:
Redeyes wrote:TTAG is only good for a starting place for news concerning firearms. You have to verify every article. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they are way off. Taking self defense tips from them is only a little better than taking them from Joe Biden. Their hearts are in the right place but some of them have their head up their ass.
Really...damn...Them, Guns.com, and The Firearms Blog are on my daily reading list with my morning cup o joe before work...
I haven't seen anything I liked on guns.com, but TFB is worth a scroll-through, jsut never take anything as gospel.

TTAG...
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Dave_M » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:31 pm

Well, here's a response article that quotes several experienced people on the subject:
http://www.breachbangclear.com/the-trut ... -and-home/
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Sworbeyegib » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:32 am

That is a fantastic collection of write ups.

I appreciate them pointing out the fact that people looking to demonize rifles can easily pull up the TTAG write up and use it as an argument which will negatively affect citizens who wish to use a rifle. That site gets a lot of traffic, and pops up in the first page of google almost as often as ZS does.

A site with the word "truth" in the title will look as a credible source to those who don't know better.
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by 0122358 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:59 am

Sworbeyegib wrote:That is a fantastic collection of write ups.

I appreciate them pointing out the fact that people looking to demonize rifles can easily pull up the TTAG write up and use it as an argument which will negatively affect citizens who wish to use a rifle. That site gets a lot of traffic, and pops up in the first page of google almost as often as ZS does.

A site with the word "truth" in the title will look as a credible source to those who don't know better.
Well shit I thought I knew better...but then again it was "oh look...guns" :wink:
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by ZHT-1A » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:53 am

I think that is the dumbest article I have ever read.
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by flybynight » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:09 pm

Interesting thread, I have nothing relevant to add to various arguments given but it did remind me of this...


USMC Rules For Gunfighting

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

9.5. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel ****es in the flintlock of your musket."

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT of your gun.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."
As of now I bet you got me wrong

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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by hondo » Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:20 am

jor-el wrote:http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/0 ... e-a-rifle/

For the moment I'll just ignore the part where there are many cities where it is legally impossible or extremely expensive in terms of time and money to own and effectively use a service type handgun with proper defensive ammo. DC and NYC top the list even with a Supreme Court smackdown.

Thoughts?
For me it is very simple if I am in situation that I fear for my life and life of my family I am going to use anything available, alive man stands a chance of wining in the court ( yes great lawyers cost money) dead man gets funeral, so better to take chance in the court and live than die on the spot or let your family get killed, both of us know that DA drops citations or charges depending on the state/city before court date if chance for conviction are less than 60 % in some jurisdictions it goes up to 90% and 98% of convictions are plea agreement where offender waived his or hers right on the trial by jury of their peers and as we know jury of our peers are poor souls who were not able to get out of jury duty they have places to be, people to see and money to make also they are not "reasonable" instead they are "regular" persons and beyond reasonable doubt bar is way lower in their eyes.

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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Stercutus » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:56 pm

It should be noted that the author went back eight months later, revisited the topic and then seemed to contradict himself while insisting that his original conclusion was correct:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/1 ... e-defense/

Won't even touch the "assault rifle" comment...

However I have a tough time taking advice from...

I’ve never been in a real gun battle, but I have some simulated experience.
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by eeb » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:54 pm

0122358 wrote:
Sworbeyegib wrote:That is a fantastic collection of write ups.

I appreciate them pointing out the fact that people looking to demonize rifles can easily pull up the TTAG write up and use it as an argument which will negatively affect citizens who wish to use a rifle. That site gets a lot of traffic, and pops up in the first page of google almost as often as ZS does.

A site with the word "truth" in the title will look as a credible source to those who don't know better.
Well shit I thought I knew better...but then again it was "oh look...guns" :wink:
About like mainstream media "news" programs- for entertainment purposes only.
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by hondo » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:18 am

Stercutus wrote:It should be noted that the author went back eight months later, revisited the topic and then seemed to contradict himself while insisting that his original conclusion was correct:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/1 ... e-defense/

Won't even touch the "assault rifle" comment...

However I have a tough time taking advice from...

I’ve never been in a real gun battle, but I have some simulated experience.
:roll:
I have a feeling that author wrote article with average Joe in mind, a guy who went once to the range day after he purchased a gun and fired 10-30 rounds. If you expect a guy with balaclava and AK-47 to come through your door at 2 am you are probably in the wrong profession.

One is more likely is to face intruder who armed himself with your kitchen knife, same goes for tools for god sake lock up shovels, axes, ladders etc. no need for it to be allover back and front yard like it is construction site. Lock power tools too do not provide burglar with all in one service.

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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Redeyes » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:00 am

His third point on his second article. Fighting with an unloaded or otherwise inoperable rifle. How many people are going to try to swing their rifle like a baseball bat? I don't know if that is what he meant but that is what it sounded like. Doesn't seem like a great idea. I have 8' ceilings in my house, plus numerous other things that could check my swing. Omegaman and I then later Gingerbread Man and I tried some things on a dummy I made out of 2x4's to simulate an attacker armed with a knife. We didn't try swinging the rifle like a baseball bat. We did try buttstrokes and muzzle thumps. Buttstokes sucked because we were using 2 point slings and AR's. The range was very limited and the sling slowed down the strike. I tried it with a fixed stock AK with a 2 point sling and it was only slightly better. I would rather throw elbows than try buttstrokes while wearing a sling. Muzzle thumps to the sternum worked very well with both types of rifle. Controlled the fuck out of the center line. Anybody else ever tried anything like this?
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by procyon » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:29 am

Redeyes wrote:Anybody else ever tried anything like this?
Not with a dummy.
Granted my training is a couple decades out of date, but all the drills we practiced (other than bayonet crap in basic) weren't about taking out your attacker using your rifle to beat them into submission. It was all about how to get your rifle back into play in it's primary role of punching holes in a target.

We practiced a lot of different things - but without getting into nit-gritty details - it all amounted to placing yourself or your weapon into position to get bullets in the target.

Although I admit that turning the ejection port to throw hot brass into the other guys face (who had grabbed the rifle to push the barrel out of line) as you blasted a bunch of rounds through the roof/trees/whatever so that you could distract them and twist the rifle so that the barrel swung down and into line with the target's legs always sounded kind of...well...
:evil:
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Stercutus » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:26 am

I have a feeling that author wrote article with average Joe in mind, a guy who went once to the range day after he purchased a gun and fired 10-30 rounds. If you expect a guy with balaclava and AK-47 to come through your door at 2 am you are probably in the wrong profession.
Maybe, but I already changed professions and I still have that expectation. Guess I did not go far enough.

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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Stercutus » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:28 am

Redeyes wrote:His third point on his second article. Fighting with an unloaded or otherwise inoperable rifle. How many people are going to try to swing their rifle like a baseball bat? I don't know if that is what he meant but that is what it sounded like. Doesn't seem like a great idea. I have 8' ceilings in my house, plus numerous other things that could check my swing. Omegaman and I then later Gingerbread Man and I tried some things on a dummy I made out of 2x4's to simulate an attacker armed with a knife. We didn't try swinging the rifle like a baseball bat. We did try buttstrokes and muzzle thumps. Buttstokes sucked because we were using 2 point slings and AR's. The range was very limited and the sling slowed down the strike. I tried it with a fixed stock AK with a 2 point sling and it was only slightly better. I would rather throw elbows than try buttstrokes while wearing a sling. Muzzle thumps to the sternum worked very well with both types of rifle. Controlled the fuck out of the center line. Anybody else ever tried anything like this?
Nope. If the one gun doesn't work grab another.
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You go over and under
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Redeyes » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:28 am

Stercutus wrote:
Redeyes wrote:His third point on his second article. Fighting with an unloaded or otherwise inoperable rifle. How many people are going to try to swing their rifle like a baseball bat? I don't know if that is what he meant but that is what it sounded like. Doesn't seem like a great idea. I have 8' ceilings in my house, plus numerous other things that could check my swing. Omegaman and I then later Gingerbread Man and I tried some things on a dummy I made out of 2x4's to simulate an attacker armed with a knife. We didn't try swinging the rifle like a baseball bat. We did try buttstrokes and muzzle thumps. Buttstokes sucked because we were using 2 point slings and AR's. The range was very limited and the sling slowed down the strike. I tried it with a fixed stock AK with a 2 point sling and it was only slightly better. I would rather throw elbows than try buttstrokes while wearing a sling. Muzzle thumps to the sternum worked very well with both types of rifle. Controlled the fuck out of the center line. Anybody else ever tried anything like this?
Nope. If the one gun doesn't work grab another.
I hear you. I practice transitions. Still, I don't think it hurts to practice combatives with a rifle. The drill went like; 1.Shoot the rifle until it is dry on two targets who are bullet sponges, get behind cover to reload, Oh shit, the cover is hiding an assailant with a knife, knock his ass down/create distance with muzzle thumps, transition to pistol, waste assailant with knife, shoot one more target after wasting the assailant. I had a big ass setup with two targets, green painter plastic simulating cover and hiding the assailant with the knife, a target to simulate the knocked down assailant and another target after that. The official name for this drill is the MBA drill. My friends know that when they see me with a screw gun in my hand shit is gonna get kicked up to 11.
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Zimmy » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:27 am

Aggressively defend yourself with the gun you're best with.
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Redeyes » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:27 pm

Goddamn right. Violence of action. It works verbally too. Just make sure you have a quick exit strategy. I am known as the cool white boy for a reason. Rock it. Buffalo Trace is awesome. When you see three of them shoot the one in the middle. I think red dots work great when your wasted but I am not taking the safety off right now. You feel me? ETA I gives you da likes Zimmy. You cool. Stercutus is cool too but why so serious bro? ETA fuck it. Stercutus I give you da likes too. Just chill once in a while ok?
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:12 pm

Redeyes wrote:Goddamn right. Violence of action. It works verbally too. Just make sure you have a quick exit strategy. I am known as the cool white boy for a reason. Rock it. Buffalo Trace is awesome. When you see three of them shoot the one in the middle. I think red dots work great when your wasted but I am not taking the safety off right now. You feel me? ETA I gives you da likes Zimmy. You cool. Stercutus is cool too but why so serious bro? ETA fuck it. Stercutus I give you da likes too. Just chill once in a while ok?
Did you just give equipment tips based upon how easy it is to shoot while wasted?

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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Redeyes » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:33 am

Yes, I was drunk. Would you like some tips for when you are hungover?
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by procyon » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:40 am

Redeyes wrote:Yes, I was drunk. Would you like some tips for when you are hungover?
I reccommend very good hearing protection, and lots of motrin before the first shot.
Not that I have lots of experience, but the headaches can be a ... :gonk:
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by Redeyes » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:05 am

Tips:
1. Procyon already covered hearing protection and meds to make sure you bring your A game. I would just like to add that suppressors and subsonic rounds are definitely your friend in this situation.
2. Sunglasses, and turn down your red dot.
3. Pre-stage whisky farts in key locations if possible. Acts like teargas.
4. All those bottles and cans you emptied last night can be put up on strings to alert you if someone tries to sneak up on you. You will have the added advantage of being enraged that someone is "Making all that damned noise!".
5. If all else fails perform a fighting withdrawal and regroup at Waffle House.
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Re: "Self Defense Tip: Don’t Use a Rifle"

Post by eeb » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:50 pm

WutsFrequencyKeneth wrote:
Redeyes wrote:Goddamn right. Violence of action. It works verbally too. Just make sure you have a quick exit strategy. I am known as the cool white boy for a reason. Rock it. Buffalo Trace is awesome. When you see three of them shoot the one in the middle. I think red dots work great when your wasted but I am not taking the safety off right now. You feel me? ETA I gives you da likes Zimmy. You cool. Stercutus is cool too but why so serious bro? ETA fuck it. Stercutus I give you da likes too. Just chill once in a while ok?
Did you just give equipment tips based upon how easy it is to shoot while wasted?
Criminals don't always give you time to sober up before attacking.
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