MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Shotgunner1992 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:57 pm

You know, when I worked for KY Department of Corrections, our rifles were Mini-14s in .223, they were not bad guns....I liked them when we got to qualify with them.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mountainsquid » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:06 am

Mikeyboy wrote:
Agreed. Not to start a side flame war with an AK owners, but holding up an AK-47 to a jury and holding up a Mini-30 jury would get a different reaction. A rifle seen on TV used by terrorist and Taliban, or a bubba rifle seen mostly on TV used by "The A-Team"

As mentioned before...the current price point of new Minis just kills it for me. You can get decent AR-15 and AK-47 for over $100 cheaper. The only reason why I like the newer "Tactical" model is the thicker barrel is a bit more accurate then the old pencil barrels. However in seeing some youtube reviews of the new Minis they still have some UFO spread with rapid fire or when the barrel heat up.

When I look in a gun store and see a S&W Sport MP-15, and the new Ruger AR-556 for $600, most AK-47 from $500 up to all new USA made CIA Centurions for $650, and the Ruger Minis selling for $750, most buyers are just going to pass. You can get a more accurate 5.56 AR for cheaper. Even if you were going to by a Mini-30 over an AK because you want to buy American, now you can buy 100% American Made AK-47 for cheaper. All Ruger needs is a simple $150 price cut and the mini would be a better option. Honestly Ruger sold mini-14 and mini-30 for a lot cheaper less than a decade ago, so it could be done. I kind of like to own a Mini, I have a soft spot for them and I'm OK with doing some Mods like an accu-strut to make it more accurate. I think they are decent, viable HD or SHTF rifles...just not at the current price point. You have a lot better options at $750.
Yeah, the cost is killer. I'm sure it's because of volume driving prices up(most AR and AK "manufacturers" buy parts from the same handful of makers rather than making them in-house), ease of construction for the AK/AR compared to the Mini-14...and what I'm sure is Ruger intentionally shipping more of the Minis to AWB states which reduces availability in other locations.


It's a fun gun, and I like mine. It is not as objectively "good" compared to all but the crappiest ARs and AKs though.

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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by minengr » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:13 am

Mountainsquid wrote:I'm rather fond of Ayoob's dictum about "be aware of what it looks like to a jury", so my Mini-14 is my home-defense rifle rather than one of my ARs or my AK.

Sides, it's a fun little rifle to shoot.
Sorry, but if my life is on the line, I'm pretty sure my thoughts are going to be about saving my ass, not what it will look like to a jury. A justified shooting is just that regardless make, model, or type of ammo given they are all legal. When it hits the fan I'm grabbing what's close be it hadgun, rifle, or shotgun. I don't plan to check if it's factory ammo or reloads either. The decision is obviously personal and I defiantly woudn't base it on something Ayoob said. He has enough problems keep facts straight.

If you don't believe they can make a mini-14 look evil I strongly disagree. Sorry, but I witnessed enough crap during the AWB I'd be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Kommander » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:26 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:I'm not ignoring or denying anything, the study you linked didn't answer my objection. I didn't claim agnosticism, I asked a specific question which I will now reword: has there been even one observed case of a good shoot that was criminally prosecuted because of the cosmetics of the firearm used? I'm not interested in whether the sentencing changed for a bad shoot, as any number of factors including race, gender, and socioeconomic status all factor in to that.

I missed these little slapfights, Jimmy.
The Harold Fish case might be an example of this. A rather overzealous prosecutor in AZ once went after a guy and got a conviction, basing part of his case on the fact that Fish used a 10mm pistol that was "more powerful" than what the police or military used and therefore showed that he intended to kill someone. Eventually via both the court system and the legislature got him out of prison, only to have him die of cancer a few years later.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by LJ126 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:51 pm

In a Mini-14 vs. AR-15 discussion, I'd side for the latter, but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the Ruger rifle. It's very capable. Despite its "step-sibling" like relationship with the AR-15, the Mini-14 is of historical significance as well. Michael Lee Platt used one to very deadly effect in a little shootout in Miami, Florida, way back in 1986. The results of this shootout (for which the Mini-14 is largely responsible) led to the modernization of law enforcement arsenals across the country, and was a major stepping stone to the adoption of the .40 S&W by so many police departments.

For practical purposes, the Mini-14 will do basically anything that the AR-15 carbine will do. It might not have the whole "grown-up Legos" thing that the AR does, but there's nothing wrong with a less adaptable arrangement if it does what you need it to do. It's not a huge chore to add optics to a newer Mini-14, nor is the installation of a rail for a light.

And yes, while I'd rather have the AR-15 of the two, it's not because of some perceived difference of performance between them. It's because everyone else with whom I'm working, and would likely be working in an emergency, is also running an AR-15 of some variation or another. That's the same reason I run a Glock, too.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:11 pm

LJ126 wrote:
For practical purposes, the Mini-14 will do basically anything that the AR-15 carbine will do. It might not have the whole "grown-up Legos" thing that the AR does, but there's nothing wrong with a less adaptable arrangement if it does what you need it to do. It's not a huge chore to add optics to a newer Mini-14, nor is the installation of a rail for a light.
Switch a Mini from 5.56 to 6.8 or 6.5 or .300blk without tools. Buy a 10-pack of reliable Mini magazines for $99. Shoot 6" groups off with just slinging support with a Mini and irons at 300m. Rebarrel a Mini 14 for $150 or less. Mount an adjustable gas block, or run a Mini suppressed.

You can't say 'the Mini will do basically anything an AR will do' and then wave off all the things that set an AR apart from every other semi-auto .223 rifle. The Mini competes with the SU16 and used to compete with unconverted Saigas, before the ban. Someone who doesn't need all the features of an AR might also make use of the AR, but that doesn't put the Mini in the same weight class.

Frankly most people who buy Minis should be comparing them against the MVP .223 and SU16.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Stercutus » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:36 pm

For practical purposes, the Mini-14 will do basically anything that the AR-15 carbine will do.
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c'mon its a flame war you guys... we gotta try harder
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mountainsquid » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:48 pm

minengr wrote:
Sorry, but if my life is on the line, I'm pretty sure my thoughts are going to be about saving my ass, not what it will look like to a jury.

A Mini-14 will do anything a AR-15 will for most home/property defense distances. It really will. And even then they aren't going to magically become Lemons out past 10 yards.

And you probably should consider the legal consequences of everything you do when it comes to taking another person's life.


A justified shooting is just that regardless make, model, or type of ammo given they are all legal.
If you fuck up even a little in the escalation of force, then how the weapon looks may make the difference between life in prison or something substantially less.

And type of ammo matters to a jury too. If you have a PMR-30 good luck trying to explain to a jury why you had to shoot someone 20 times before he dropped.
When it hits the fan
I'm not talking about "when it hits the fan". I'm talking about hearing a noise in the backyard and your dumb ass goes out to check it out and ends up popping someone instead of investigating from a window and calling LE as needed.

My actual, factual SHTF is a AR-15. But SHTF isn't likely to happen to many people on this board.

The decision is obviously personal and I defiantly woudn't base it on something Ayoob said. He has enough problems keep facts straight.[q/utoe]

Okay sport.

If you don't believe they can make a mini-14 look evil I strongly disagree.

I didn't say that either. It is much more difficult to make a Fuddgun that looks like grandpa's hunting rifle look evil than something that the media repeatably refers to as a "weapon of war".

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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Stercutus » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:09 am

A Mini-14 will do anything a AR-15 will for most home/property defense distances. It really will.
That is a much less ludicrous claim and has an element of truth to it.
I'm not talking about "when it hits the fan". I'm talking about hearing a noise in the backyard and your dumb ass goes out to check it out and ends up popping someone instead of investigating from a window and calling LE as needed.
Maybe. Except for the whole checking for bad guys from my window part. You go first, make sure the coast is clear.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by LJ126 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:02 am

You know what I see? A bunch of AR-15 aficionados getting butthurt at the idea that there is competition to their weapons, or that maybe something else might work just fine.

Doctorfab quoted me, yet missed the key word of the first sentence: practical. 'Practical purposes' doesn't include a barrel swap, nor for 99% of black rifle owners involve the use of a can. An adjustable gas block isn't a practical concern for users, either. A rack grade AR-15 generally won't shoot a 6" 300 yard group with irons either (4 MOA is typical.)

Want a Mini-14 that shoots 6.8 or 7.62x39? Get that variant of rifle. They're out there. Maybe y'all have heard of them.

Practical purposes, people. Nothing makes someone sound like a mall ninja more than pointing out niche factors or capabilities and treating them as if they were more important than they actually are.

The ability to swap uppers, and the low cost of magazines are the two reasons why I like the AR-15. That's it. Otherwise, I'd be plenty happy with a Mini-14 instead.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mikeyboy » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:03 am

Stercutus wrote:
A Mini-14 will do anything a AR-15 will for most home/property defense distances. It really will.
That is a much less ludicrous claim and has an element of truth to it.
I'm not talking about "when it hits the fan". I'm talking about hearing a noise in the backyard and your dumb ass goes out to check it out and ends up popping someone instead of investigating from a window and calling LE as needed.
Maybe. Except for the whole checking for bad guys from my window part. You go first, make sure the coast is clear.
Granted Mountainsquid is sort of correct. Most true home defense situations will probably be within 25 yards at the most. Shooting beyond that distance, even in a rural setting gets beyond personal self defense and into something else.

That said MOST minis have more of a shotgun spread beyond 50 yards. Some newer models or ones that have been mod'ed with an accu-strut (while shooting premium ammo) can have tight-ish groups, but still something along the lines of an AK-47, usually grouping 3" at best and nothing like an AR or even a Kel Tec Su-16. This is coming from honest opinions from owners and hard core fans of the mini.

I hate to post his youtube videos, but Nutnfancy did a long winded review of the newer mini-14, and even though he is a serious fanboy of the rifle his non-benched groups had seriously wide "UFO" shaped. Sorry but an un-mod'ed original pencil barreled Mini that shoots 5.56 or 7.62x39, having a shotgun spread at 50 and 100 yards is downright frustrating. Going back to liability, in a Self defense shooting, you are ultimately responsible for ever round you fire. If you aim is true, you don't want to still end up missing with a rifle and end up hurting a innocent bystander. The rifle is still fine for self defense, but the Mini is no tack driver, nor is it going to be as accurate as an AR.

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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:42 am

LJ126 wrote:You know what I see? A bunch of AR-15 aficionados getting butthurt at the idea that there is competition to their weapons, or that maybe something else might work just fine.

Doctorfab quoted me, yet missed the key word of the first sentence: practical. 'Practical purposes' doesn't include a barrel swap, nor for 99% of black rifle owners involve the use of a can. An adjustable gas block isn't a practical concern for users, either. A rack grade AR-15 generally won't shoot a 6" 300 yard group with irons either (4 MOA is typical.)

Want a Mini-14 that shoots 6.8 or 7.62x39? Get that variant of rifle. They're out there. Maybe y'all have heard of them.

Practical purposes, people. Nothing makes someone sound like a mall ninja more than pointing out niche factors or capabilities and treating them as if they were more important than they actually are.

The ability to swap uppers, and the low cost of magazines are the two reasons why I like the AR-15. That's it. Otherwise, I'd be plenty happy with a Mini-14 instead.
Shut it down guys. Shut it all down. Suppressors aren't practical and multiple uppers are practical. Changing calibers isn't practical. Shut down the multimillion dollar market for uppers and upper parts, that's all impractical tacticool bullshit. Also forget all those drills, apparently rack-grade M4geries are only capable of 4 MOA. Fuck if I know how all my service rifles managed to routinely hit a silhouette at 500yd, or the 10" orange marker disk at the same distance with a 4MOA rifle.

Sarcastic mockery aside, you're doing the thing where you use a non-specific descriptor again. That's called a weasel-word, and you should probably avoid them if you want to be taken seriously.

For instance, what is a 'rack-grade' AR? What defines it, or did you just mean 'rifles that shoot 4MOA.'

6.8 SPC Minis aren't made any more, and the Mini-30s aren't flying off the shelves either. There are none in Blackout or Grendel, there are no HBAR varmint models, and SBRing one would be a chore, to say the least. The mags cost 2-3x what AR mags cost, which is significant for a wear item, the barrels aren't cheap either, which is a concern if you shoot a lot. They are almost impossible to suppress, and it's not as though you can buy a complete gun rehab kit for $250 and replace all the wear-parts if you shoot out the barrel. I haven't yet seen a Mini-14 that would run steel-cased ammo. These may not be practical concerns for you, but that does not mean they are impractical for everyone.

You are not the arbiter of what is practical or impractical. For someone who wants or needs to shoot suppressed (suppressed hunting in what, 30 states now?) that ability is practical.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by LJ126 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:14 am

1prac·ti·cal
\ˈprak-ti-kəl\
adjective
: relating to what is real rather than to what is possible or imagined
: likely to succeed and reasonable to do or use
: appropriate or suited for actual use

Real. Reasonable. Appropriate. Likely. Look at how many people do the things I pointed out as not practical concerns and apply the above definition. Do those things happen? Sure. Do many of us do it? Very few - the niche market folks.

If the curiousity is in regards to what a "rack grade" AR-15 is, it's a vanilla A2 rifle, or carbine, shooting military type ammunition. View MIL-C-71186 for accuracy standards, for both rifles and ammunition. "Rack grade" is a way of describing any used military weapon in serviceable, functional condition - as it would be found on a rack, in a locker, or mounted in a squad car.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Stercutus » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:24 pm

I haven't yet seen a Mini-14 that would run steel-cased ammo.
My old one would. Of course it also would shuck the brass 30-40 feet to the right. If I ever took it to a range I literally had to take the rightmost position every time or whoever was over there would get rained with brass. Dented the hell out of the cases too, did not matter what kind of brass it was.
Granted Mountainsquid is sort of correct. Most true home defense situations will probably be within 25 yards at the most. Shooting beyond that distance, even in a rural setting gets beyond personal self defense and into something else.
For example defense of others. Who the hell wants to trust a 4 MOA weapon for defense of others at 50 yards under stress? It would be bad enough to accidentally shoot an innocent bystander; what about your wife?
You know what I see? A bunch of AR-15 aficionados getting butthurt at the idea that there is competition to their weapons, or that maybe something else might work just fine.
Or maybe you also have people who have owned and shot those weapons over the years and given up in frustration at the futility of it all. Everything has it's time and place and hour. For the Mini-14 that was during the AWB years when old Bill sold out gun owners so he could keep pimping his gun. Those days are long behind us. While the newer made guns are worlds better than the old ones they still suck. My Minis are all gone now. I sold the last one for a pretty penny during the last panic. The best of the lot it still did not hold a candle to my worst performing AR so it made sense to let it go and buy something pretty when the prices crashed (like they did a few months ago). Can't say I miss it all.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by jor-el » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:20 am

I think it was brought up on the Perfect Union boards of the novelty that this

Image

http://www.ruger.com/products/ar556/models.html

is in direct competition with this

Image

http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14Tac ... odels.html

BTW,
there are no HBAR varmint models
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by minengr » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:11 am

Mountainsquid wrote:
minengr wrote: Sorry, but if my life is on the line, I'm pretty sure my thoughts are going to be about saving my ass, not what it will look like to a jury.
A Mini-14 will do anything a AR-15 will for most home/property defense distances. It really will. And even then they aren't going to magically become Lemons out past 10 yards.
Never said it wouldn't. However, I'm not planning to run out and buy one on the remote chance I'll need to look better in the eyes of a jury.
Mountainsquid wrote:
minengr wrote:And you probably should consider the legal consequences of everything you do when it comes to taking another person's life.
A justified shooting is just that regardless make, model, or type of ammo given they are all legal.
If you fuck up even a little in the escalation of force, then how the weapon looks may make the difference between life in prison or something substantially less.

And type of ammo matters to a jury too. If you have a PMR-30 good luck trying to explain to a jury why you had to shoot someone 20 times before he dropped.
It seems I should have been more clear in my previous post. I wasn't talking about strange sounds in the backyard at night or a heated argument with a random stranger. I'm suggesting that if someone breaks into my home and appears to have deadly intentions, I plan to defend myself. I can't foretell the future, and there are infinite hypothetical scenarios possible. If it "hits the fan" and there is no time to plan, I am suggesting, the weapon and ammo I pick most likely will be determined by proximity. If I've determined deadly force is necessary, what I can "get into play" to save my live will have more bearing than "don't grab the AR cause it might look bad" or "I can't use that mag because it has reloads".

You can "what if" this till you tire of typing. Most of your comebacks assume I fuck up. Well what if I don't? What if that noise I hear in the house turns out to be a knife wielding psycho, he's already killed six other people that night and now is running down the hall straight at me? In that situation I'm grabbing whatever is closest and I'm shooting until there is no longer a threat. Yes, it is an insane scenario. However, I believe it proves my point. In that crazy I will not be later thinking "I shouldn't have grabbed the AR, it might look bad to the jury".

All that is just a really long way of saying if deadly force is 100% justified, what's used to defend yourself, with reasonable explanation, won't matter to a jury.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mountainsquid » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:21 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: I haven't yet seen a Mini-14 that would run steel-cased ammo.

Wait, seriously? Mine ran the last 100rds or so of Brown Bear that I had just fine. Were you using Tapco mags or something?

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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mountainsquid » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:39 am

Mikeyboy wrote:
I hate to post his youtube videos, but Nutnfancy did a long winded review of the newer mini-14,

Everything he does is long-winded. :v:

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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Kommander » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:28 am

LJ126 wrote:If the curiousity is in regards to what a "rack grade" AR-15 is, it's a vanilla A2 rifle, or carbine, shooting military type ammunition. View MIL-C-71186 for accuracy standards, for both rifles and ammunition. "Rack grade" is a way of describing any used military weapon in serviceable, functional condition - as it would be found on a rack, in a locker, or mounted in a squad car.
I am not sure how relevant this is to private purchase weapons that are not subject to the rigors of military use. Personally the mag price alone is enough to keep me away from the Mini, but others can do as the please.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:57 am

In an emergency situation where fire/heat is necessary for survival... something in suburban-middle-class America that is more likely than a fire fight or combat situation... the Mini-14 can be used for firewood.

Let's see your plastic M4-gery do that... how's that for being "practical"??
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by eeb » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:14 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:In an emergency situation where fire/heat is necessary for survival... something in suburban-middle-class America that is more likely than a fire fight or combat situation... the Mini-14 can be used for firewood.

Let's see your plastic M4-gery do that... how's that for being "practical"??
Will it be functional after you burn the stock? That's assuming you have the original wooden stock on it. I would assume that most of middle-class America has plenty of other stuff (junkmail, yard debris, Rembrandts,) to burn, the toothpick attached to their defense weapon/grocery getter should be far down the list. But if you insist on burning your rifle, don't forget you can get wooden AR furniture now, too.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:44 am

eeb wrote:
JeeperCreeper wrote:In an emergency situation where fire/heat is necessary for survival... something in suburban-middle-class America that is more likely than a fire fight or combat situation... the Mini-14 can be used for firewood.

Let's see your plastic M4-gery do that... how's that for being "practical"??
Will it be functional after you burn the stock? That's assuming you have the original wooden stock on it. I would assume that most of middle-class America has plenty of other stuff (junkmail, yard debris, Rembrandts,) to burn, the toothpick attached to their defense weapon/grocery getter should be far down the list. But if you insist on burning your rifle, don't forget you can get wooden AR furniture now, too.
You use a wooden stock as a toothpick?? You must be from West Virginia (buh dum dumm.... get it, they have no teeth!!!)
Wooden stock on an AR?? It's like having sex with a sister... oh wait, West Virginia... nevermind....


You know what else is so PRACTICOOL about a Mini 14... let's say it's the ZPAW, and you're out strolling around, and happen upon some buckeyes or walnuts or chestnuts or an other large shelled nut, and you think, "boy, would I like to get some food". Well guess what, you have a Mini 14 so you can just bust that nut using the bolt to crunch the shell. Try doing that with an AR with its puny little ejection port. There is no way you could bust a nut with an AR ejection port....

Mini = 2 AR = 0
They see me trollin', they hatin'.... keyboardin' tryna catch me typin' dirty
Halfapint wrote:There are some exceptions like myself and jeepercreeper.... but we are the forum asshats. We protect our positions with gusto
zero11010 wrote:The girlfriend is a good shot with a 10/22.
Her secondary offense will be nagging.

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Stercutus
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Stercutus » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:23 am

I'd burn all my old 10/22 stocks before I would start in on the Mini stock. IIRC they weighed about the same. However, I need the Mini stock to put back on before I show it to the jury for my trial after taking down looters come to steal my fire so I can get a shorter sentence.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

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Mikeyboy
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mikeyboy » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:04 am

jor-el wrote:I think it was brought up on the Perfect Union boards of the novelty that this

Image

http://www.ruger.com/products/ar556/models.html

is in direct competition with this

Image

http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14Tac ... odels.html

BTW,
there are no HBAR varmint models
Image
Yep...makes me wonder what Ruger is thinking. Maybe the Mini-14 sells well at the current price point driven in part, like others have already said, because it the gun of choice for buyers in "unfriendly" gun states like CA.

However I just think of the fluctuations in price just over the last 10 years. For example a bottom shelf AR-15 could have been bought for about $600 in 2005, today its about the same price for what I think is a better quality AR. In 2005 a Glock 19 was around $500, today a gen 4 G19 is just under $550 and Gen 3 are still $500. Even the Ruger 10/22 sold for around $180 to $200 in 2005 and today you can still buy a base model 10/22 for a hair over $200. Granted the prices on all these guns fluctuated with the panics but they came back to about the same level baring a bit of a bump for inflation. However Ruger mini-14 sold for under $500 for the longest time, even after the re-tooling and re-styling between 2004 and 2008 the Mini-14 stayed under $600...then the panics came and the prices jump to +$800. There has been a modest drop but nothing reasonable yet.

This also makes me think of my other theory. Maybe for Ruger it may be easier and potentially more profitable to make the AR-556 and selling them at $600 to compete directly with the S&W Sport AR. Having a Mini-14 selling at $600 would just muddle the works since the Mini is not in direct competition with any S&W rifle. Maybe Ruger wants to keep the Mini-14 out there at its current price point for those who want (or forced by local gun laws) something that is non-AR like. Its just the price you would have to pay to get a friendly looking semi-auto rifle. However I wonder if the Mini is a thorn on Ruger's side. If there are no more gun panics, and no more worries of an AWB would Ruger just let the Mini go the way of the Dodo bird and slowly fade away.

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