MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by LJ126 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:34 pm

Kommander wrote:
LJ126 wrote:If the curiousity is in regards to what a "rack grade" AR-15 is, it's a vanilla A2 rifle, or carbine, shooting military type ammunition. View MIL-C-71186 for accuracy standards, for both rifles and ammunition. "Rack grade" is a way of describing any used military weapon in serviceable, functional condition - as it would be found on a rack, in a locker, or mounted in a squad car.
I am not sure how relevant this is to private purchase weapons that are not subject to the rigors of military use. Personally the mag price alone is enough to keep me away from the Mini, but others can do as the please.
It is part of my reply to Dr.Fab, as an attempt to define terms. Definitions and validity of facts were brought into question, so I clarified.

As an aside, Tapco magazines for the Mini-14 aren't much more expensive than PMags, and function just fine.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by praharin » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:47 pm

LJ126 wrote:
Kommander wrote:
LJ126 wrote:If the curiousity is in regards to what a "rack grade" AR-15 is, it's a vanilla A2 rifle, or carbine, shooting military type ammunition. View MIL-C-71186 for accuracy standards, for both rifles and ammunition. "Rack grade" is a way of describing any used military weapon in serviceable, functional condition - as it would be found on a rack, in a locker, or mounted in a squad car.
I am not sure how relevant this is to private purchase weapons that are not subject to the rigors of military use. Personally the mag price alone is enough to keep me away from the Mini, but others can do as the please.
It is part of my reply to Dr.Fab, as an attempt to define terms. Definitions and validity of facts were brought into question, so I clarified.

As an aside, Tapco magazines for the Mini-14 aren't much more expensive than PMags, and function just fine.
You mean this?
A series of 10 rounds fired
from each carbine at a range of 91.4 meters shall be within the
extreme spread and targeting area (heavy outline) specified in
Figure I when the front and rear sights are set as follows. The
normal rear sight peep (sight rotated fully rearward) shall be
used with the rear sight set centrally in the slot for windage
9MIL-C-71186(AR)
within plus or minus twelve (12) clicks. The top edge of the
front sight post flange shall be set flush to .030 inch below the
bottom surface of the front sight slot. Ammunition shall be
Government standard H855, 5.56MM ball cartridges conforming to
Drawing 9342868 and shall have been certified by the Government
to be of a quality that will have an average horizontal and
vertical standard deviation of 3.4 inches to 4.0 inches at 600
yards as measured in accordance with MIL-C-63989.
Well, that's pretty convoluted. They don't even list an MOA accuracy, but the Beloved Corps bestowed upon me that a shooter should be capable of 7moa with any rifle they are handed at the very worst (or we had to worry). How many people are honestly 3moa shooters (making the M16 a 4moa rifle, by extreme spread) from field positions? I know for a fact that I, and many others, have gone 10 for 10 on a 20" silhouette target at 500 yards with a "rack grade" rifle from the sling supported prone position. Remember, that's with an "inaccurate" chrome lined chamber and bore.

If you want to further tout the Mini's superiority, I suggest you read the "endurance" portion of the document you suggested. The spec states no more than 9 total malfunctions in 6000 rounds

https://www.ar15.com/content/webPDF/m4a1milspec.pdf

See also: "Interchangeability" Can your Mini do that?
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Toothpick Jim » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:38 pm

If I could only own one .223 I would go with a AR.

But since that aint the case, I really enjoy owning and shooting my Mini 14. Anyways,.... Minis have nicer looking wood! :wink:

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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Kommander » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:16 pm

LJ126 wrote:As an aside, Tapco magazines for the Mini-14 aren't much more expensive than PMags, and function just fine.
Never used Tapcos Mini mags but their AK mags were the only one I have had issues with in my AK. I eventually sold them all in '08 during the first panic for a nice profit. After that I can't really be bothered to try their mags again though some of their other stuff has worked ok for me.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by jor-el » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:18 pm

Please note that Tapco has gone through a couple of iterations in Mini-14 magazines


Image
This is a first gen, all plastic. Yeah, not so reliable.

Image
Here's a Second Generation, with the metal reinforcement where the mag latched to the rifle. They also thickened the mag walls for more strength.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:33 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:In an emergency situation where fire/heat is necessary for survival... something in suburban-middle-class America that is more likely than a fire fight or combat situation... the Mini-14 can be used for firewood.

Let's see your plastic M4-gery do that... how's that for being "practical"??
Finally! Something the Mini is good for! :rofl:
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:41 am

Mountainsquid wrote:And type of ammo matters to a jury too. If you have a PMR-30 good luck trying to explain to a jury why you had to shoot someone 20 times before he dropped.
Gotta disagree.

You shoot to stop the threat, right?


(Obviously it's a different situation if you deliberately choose a less-effective weapon for the specific purpose of "getting to unload" on somebody. If it's all you've got, or the closest at hand, make it work.)
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by eeb » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:49 pm

Yes, you shoot to stop the threat. Good luck explaining that to a jury that might range from zero experience with guns (who believe a single 22lr hit to the chest will kill you before you hit the ground), to latent, previously unexpressed anti-gun tendencies (hopefully your lawyer will have weeded out any rabid anti-gun fanatics). And if you're being tried for a justifiable act of self-defense, the prosecutor is likely feeding any anti-gun feelings.

But when the rubber meets the road, you do what you have to do, and hope for the best.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:55 pm

Woo, bring on the FUD.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Stercutus » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:20 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Mountainsquid wrote:And type of ammo matters to a jury too. If you have a PMR-30 good luck trying to explain to a jury why you had to shoot someone 20 times before he dropped.
Gotta disagree.

You shoot to stop the threat, right?


(Obviously it's a different situation if you deliberately choose a less-effective weapon for the specific purpose of "getting to unload" on somebody. If it's all you've got, or the closest at hand, make it work.)
Prosecutors and media everywhere are going to disagree with you. Were excessive number of shots fired? is a question that comes up in nearly every police shooting, looked at and analyzed. It is no different with non-police. Tell me how many examples you want to see...
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:30 pm

eeb wrote:Yes, you shoot to stop the threat. Good luck explaining that to a jury that might range from zero experience with guns (who believe a single 22lr hit to the chest will kill you before you hit the ground)
Simple. Shot once. Dude kept coming at me. Still a lethal threat, still fearing for my life. Shot again. Dude didn't stop. I'm afraid. Shoot again.

And so on. Backed up by physical evidence of the same, of course. If they think a single 22lr hit to the chest will kill you before you hit the ground, and this guy is hit by something bigger, and keeps presenting a threat, then this guy must be some sort of hulk/terminator hybrid, right? ( ;) ) So multiple shots would definitely not be excessive. I'm lucky to have survived.

Game. Set. Match.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:31 pm

Stercutus wrote:Prosecutors and media everywhere are going to disagree with you.
The law agrees with me.

An adequate defense attorney and actual evidence will convince the jury of such.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by jor-el » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:39 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
eeb wrote:Yes, you shoot to stop the threat. Good luck explaining that to a jury that might range from zero experience with guns (who believe a single 22lr hit to the chest will kill you before you hit the ground)
Simple. Shot once. Dude kept coming at me. Still a lethal threat, still fearing for my life. Shot again. Dude didn't stop. I'm afraid. Shoot again.

And so on. Backed up by physical evidence of the same, of course. If they think a single 22lr hit to the chest will kill you before you hit the ground, and this guy is hit by something bigger, and keeps presenting a threat, then this guy must be some sort of hulk/terminator hybrid, right? ( ;) ) So multiple shots would definitely not be excessive. I'm lucky to have survived.

Game. Set. Match.
Would only be of concern in the NYC region where the previous police commissioner established a ‘three shots and assess‘ rule.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Stercutus » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:35 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Prosecutors and media everywhere are going to disagree with you.
The law agrees with me.

An adequate defense attorney and actual evidence will convince the jury of such.
$50 for a box of good ammo vs $50K for a good lawyer. Your call.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by praharin » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:07 am

Stercutus wrote:
$50 for a box of good ammo vs $50K for a good lawyer. Your call.
Does that ammo come with a 3 shot stop guarantee? Do they pay for the lawyer if it doesn't work out?

Seriously though, what are you trying to argue here? The prosecutor will have to prove shots were excessive. If you don't shoot any anchoring shots, you'll will be able to justify all of them because they were just.

You seem to be picking apart a strawman defense, using the PMR30 as an example.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:15 am

Just pointing out that a bunch of shots to drop a target are going to be viewed as excessive.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by praharin » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:20 am

Stercutus wrote:Just pointing out that a bunch of shots to drop a target are going to be viewed as excessive.
At what point should I stop shooting and allow Mr Badguy to do his thing?
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:09 am

praharin wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Just pointing out that a bunch of shots to drop a target are going to be viewed as excessive.
At what point should I stop shooting and allow Mr Badguy to do his thing?
You are missing the point.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by LowKey » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:50 am

Stercutus wrote:
praharin wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Just pointing out that a bunch of shots to drop a target are going to be viewed as excessive.
At what point should I stop shooting and allow Mr Badguy to do his thing?
You are missing the point.
No, he isn't.

However many shots are necessary to stop the threat are by definition not excessive.

ex·ces·sive
ikˈsesiv/
adjective
adjective: excessive

more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate.



If the defender has a weapon in .22LR (FSM help him) and needs to put 30 rounds into the attacker to make him stop then those 30 rounds were necessary.
If the defender has a weapon in .50Alaskan and stops the perp with one shot, one shot was necessary.

As a previous poster stated, as long as the shoot was justified and you didn't use an anchor shot the law is on your side. Will you spend lots of time in court? Maybe. You may spend the same ammount of time in court with a one (or two) shot stop if the prosecutor is anti-gun gung-ho enough to try to argue excessive force in a case where 30 shots were required.

Your argument is predicated on a procecutor with an anti-gun bias, not on an arbitary round count. An anti-gun prosecutor is going to go after you even if you fired only one round and claim that any leathal force was excessive.
If that's the type of DA/prosecutor that you have in your area....get rid of him/her. They're elected, are they not? If that fails....vote with your feet.
Last edited by LowKey on Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by eeb » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:50 am

True. By that logic, Grandpa's old timey Mini14 won't have any advantage over junior's tacticool AR, as long as proper fire discipline is observed.

Also, Google "Landline Magazine, self defense", I don't have time to post a link now, but they have an article on a related case.
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by praharin » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:15 am

LowKey wrote:....vote with your feet.
Do you mean by kicking him in the teeth? :P
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:44 am

Stercutus wrote:
praharin wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Just pointing out that a bunch of shots to drop a target are going to be viewed as excessive.
At what point should I stop shooting and allow Mr Badguy to do his thing?
You are missing the point.
Pot, kettle.
(Obviously it's a different situation if you deliberately choose a less-effective weapon for the specific purpose of "getting to unload" on somebody. If it's all you've got, or the closest at hand, make it work.)
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:48 am

praharin wrote:
LowKey wrote:....vote with your feet.
Do you mean by kicking him in the teeth? :P
Well, that could be against the law in some cases, so probably not.
Besides, you know that sharks have multiple rows of teeth--what good would it do? :crazy:
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Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by praharin » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:53 am

Stercutus wrote:
praharin wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Just pointing out that a bunch of shots to drop a target are going to be viewed as excessive.
At what point should I stop shooting and allow Mr Badguy to do his thing?
You are missing the point.
I get your point. An overzealous DA may try to hold the number of rounds against me. If that isn't your point, please fill me in.

My point is, I don't care. If I choose to fire fewer shots than necessary (although as many as necessary is NOT excessive, by definition) I probably won't live to hear the DA say "He shot the exact number of shots he should have. Too bad it didn't work. Oh well, off to the golf course, because everyone is dead, so my job is done."
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