Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Hollis » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:43 am

crypto wrote:Don't shoot commercial .308 out of an ishapore enfield.

Good point. Old military rifles should be checked for headspace, etc.

Can you explain more about the commercial ammo. Hunting, with higher chamber pressures?

.308 NATO only?

Thanks ahead of time.

Google did not help much. I have a Ishapore in .308. I have had no problems as of yet and obviously do not want any. I have had head spacing issues with some other older rifles, like a Arisaka in 7.5
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by 00dlez » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:56 am

Following with interest. I've recently been developing a fantasy that I could scrounge up busted surplus guns or sporterized versions and dolling them up to flip them for a few bucks. (emphasis few) Mosins and 8mm Yugos or Spanish rifles have come to the top of my mind in my limited research.
A nice duracoat, pic rail, scope/bipod/sling, and you can get some neat looking oddities. Cost effective for performance? Most folks, as stated above, would probably rather just get a modern bolt gun. A $300 savage axis in .308, for most practical applications, would trump a mil-surp dollar for dollar... Plus parts/warranty/etc etc.


I think ammo availability/cost - both surplus and commercial - is an important consideration. Folks wanting collectable samples I feel like are far less concerned with an extra 10 cents a round or having to go online to buy more obscure calibers - they want the gun to have the gun in the condition its in more so that shooting it until the barrel is worn.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:00 pm

00dlez wrote:I've recently been developing a fantasy that I could scrounge up busted surplus guns or sporterized versions and dolling them up to flip them for a few bucks.
That requires a federal firearms license, specifically a license to manufacture.

Ref: https://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings ... 010-10.htm
Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.
Likewise, buying a firearm with the intent of reselling it for a profit also requires an FFL, and with it all the required local and state business licenses.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by 00dlez » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:10 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
00dlez wrote:I've recently been developing a fantasy that I could scrounge up busted surplus guns or sporterized versions and dolling them up to flip them for a few bucks.
That requires a federal firearms license, specifically a license to manufacture.

Ref: https://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings ... 010-10.htm
Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.
Likewise, buying a firearm with the intent of reselling it for a profit also requires an FFL, and with it all the required local and state business licenses.
Thanks - I know folks here err on the side of caution, and it serves as a good reminder to all. I guess I should have been more clear that my post hardly constituted a complete business plan and I of course intend to operate within the law... if I even decide its worth time/energy/resources.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by TacAir » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:33 pm

Mosin - best flashlight evah!
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Enfield - meh. If you can find the ammo, good for shooting livestock...

Mauser - the rifle that everyone copies, has copied or will copy....for good reason.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by crypto » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:35 pm

Hollis wrote:
crypto wrote:Don't shoot commercial .308 out of an ishapore enfield.

Good point. Old military rifles should be checked for headspace, etc.

Can you explain more about the commercial ammo. Hunting, with higher chamber pressures?

.308 NATO only?

Thanks ahead of time.

Google did not help much. I have a Ishapore in .308. I have had no problems as of yet and obviously do not want any. I have had head spacing issues with some other older rifles, like a Arisaka in 7.5

Well, I only had a sample size of one (my own rifle) but when I shot commercial .308 (federal hunting 168gr soft-points) I had some pretty dangerous brass swelling, they swelled up like sausage cases in a way that NATO surplus (South african battlepacks) did not. I think it was a combination of thinner case walls, and an overly roomy chamber. Either way, they looked like this:

Image

I think there's another picture somewhere with a bunch of them that looked like that next to some unfired federal and some fired SA surplus.

It skeeved me out and made me think a case head separation was imminent.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:41 pm

I have an Ishapore Enfield chambered in 7.62 Nato and I shoot 308 out of it all the time with no issues. The barrel is pristine I think people just look at the wood on them with all the dings and scratches and think it's about to fall apart but the metal is fine and the barrell is like new and it is very accurate. The Mosin I owned was cheap and fun to shoot but not that accurate. I have never owned a Mauser but I gotta think since pretty much all hunting guns are based off it that it's good. My vote goes for Enfield.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:10 pm

crypto wrote:
Hollis wrote:
crypto wrote:Don't shoot commercial .308 out of an ishapore enfield.

Good point. Old military rifles should be checked for headspace, etc.

Can you explain more about the commercial ammo. Hunting, with higher chamber pressures?

.308 NATO only?

Thanks ahead of time.

Google did not help much. I have a Ishapore in .308. I have had no problems as of yet and obviously do not want any. I have had head spacing issues with some other older rifles, like a Arisaka in 7.5

Well, I only had a sample size of one (my own rifle) but when I shot commercial .308 (federal hunting 168gr soft-points) I had some pretty dangerous brass swelling, they swelled up like sausage cases in a way that NATO surplus (South african battlepacks) did not. I think it was a combination of thinner case walls, and an overly roomy chamber. Either way, they looked like this:

Image

I think there's another picture somewhere with a bunch of them that looked like that next to some unfired federal and some fired SA surplus.

It skeeved me out and made me think a case head separation was imminent.
That tends to be a rifle-by-rifle issue. I can't speak for the Enfields, but the Spanish Mausers have the same mythos about kabooming, yet nobody seems to be able to produce a kaboomed rifle. There are people shooting commercial loads out of the 1916 Mausers without issues. Yours is way cooler, but IMO those 1916s are the new Mosins in terms of cheap milsurps with common ammo.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Hollis » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:22 pm

The only Mauser that I have heard bad things about where the Spanish ones.



BTW my oldest Mosins was made by Remington for the Csar. I have a Enfield made by Savage too.

Old firearms are cool but some are not in the greatest shape for shooting. Checking them out by a gunsmith would be a wise choice.

IIRC, military brass is thicker. I use to have a bunch of military 30-06 that I would modify for other calibers, they are thicker than commercial brass.

I have some old stuff that I shoot. '88 commission, Gewehr 98 w/ a engineer bayo. My oldest shooting is a 1818 Springfield.

On Old mauser one needs to check the barrel. Most have been rebarreled to the S barrel, new 8mm Mauser. The old 8mm Mauser bullet diameter is less. I have a '86 Turkish Mauser that has been rebarreled.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by LJ126 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:31 am

I have a Serbian made Zastava LK M70 in .30-06, and it's a straight-up Mauser 98 action with a modern trigger and safety. It's freaking awesome.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by 00dlez » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:51 am

Rather than re-hash the Spanish mauser debate, I'll just say this:

If you plan to shoot commercial .308 and want to do it Spanish mauser, just make sure it is an FR-8 (not an FR-7) and sleep easy. As always, have any weapon inspected by a gunsmith before use.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by crypto » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:45 am

I've got a FR-8. It's nifty.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by RickOShea » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:22 pm

I haven't blown-up my Ishapore 2A "Bastard Scout" yet.....so I'm going with that. :ooh:
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:34 pm

RickOShea wrote:I haven't blown-up my Ishapore 2A "Bastard Scout" yet.....so I'm going with that. :ooh:
Seriously that rifle...Savage needs to talk to you about a rifle to compete with the Ruger GSR.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Hollis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:26 pm

Oppps, I forgot how to post from photobucket.

Sorry
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:31 pm

(sigh) The "I use .308 and my gun ain't blow'd up yet" argument is just plain stupid. Seriously people? Really? The thing about the converted 7.62 small ring mausers and the Ishapor 7.62 enfields is that their actions are designed to run at about 45,000 PSI. Commercial .308 is usually runs at about 56,000 PSI. Does that mean it will instantly go off like a grenade? No. But it will put more stress on the metal than it is designed for. And that damage is cumulative. Considering that most of the rifles in question are at least 60 years old, and some of the mausers can be pushing 100, do you really, really want to keep pushing your luck just to save a few bucks? Especially when Walmart has cheap 7.62x51 ammunition? It is your gun, and your face, so you make your own decision. Personally, I would pass. And I am the type of idiot who shoots 110 year old black powder ammunition out of 130 year old rifles for fun. That should tell you something.

As for which rifle of the three the OP mentioned, I would have to ask, what are we carrying it for? For many years, I alternated between a 91/59 Mosin carbine and a SMLE MkIII* short rifle as my trunk gun. Mostly because both were handy, and ammunition was cheap. As the .303 British in the white boxes by Winchester started to dry up, I went more and more to the Mosin. Not ideal, but it was easy to feed, and nothing would go wrong with it short of... well, I don't know. It takes talent to break a Mosin. However, if I were going to end up having to pick one single rifle to do everything from that list I would end up going with some form of mauser. The mosins are great, but the ergonomics on the Mauser are better. And both weigh less than the different flavors or Enfield rifles. Depending on the caliber, the ammunition is likely to cost more than the Mosin, but it may be cheaper than .303 British. Besides. I reload. So once I have the brass, it is almost the same cost to reload any of them. If the premise of the question is to pick one rifle to last you for the rest of your life, and do all the tasks you need a rifle to, I would actually go with a pre-war or early war Type 99 Arisaka. It has one of the strongest military actions ever made. The bore is chrome-lined. It has a peep sight. And the cartridge can be loaded anywhere from the .303 British levels up through very hot .30-06 levels. It doesn't weigh too much, it is a handy size, and it works about as well as any other mauser variant. My other choice would be one of the Mannlicher 6.5mm rifles. Either the 6.5x54 Greek models, or one of the Dutch 6.5x53R ones. The rounds are obscure. And the Dutch gun needs an en-bloc clip. But in terms of efficiency of the cartridge, and smoothness of the action, nothing else even comes close.

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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by crypto » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:20 pm

I dunno. Not all PSI are the same, monkeyboy.

I advised against it but I don't necessarily think the baseline pressure is the problem.

The 7.62x51 NATO spec is so old its pressure was measured using copper crush plugs, and is actually 50,000 CUP, not PSI. A long time ago people considered CUP and PSI interchangeable units but that hasn't been the case since technology offered us more accurate measurement devices (piezo strain gauges).

Conversely, the SAAMI spec for .308 Winchester, while it says 62,000 PSI, also says that 62,000PSI is equivalent to 52,000 CUP. So while it's a little higher, its not catastrophically higher. Which matches the relative ballistic data we already know between the two cartridges: If .308 were 20% higher pressure than 7.62x51, it would have dramatically higher velocities. But it doesn't, so we can conclude that the chamber pressure is only very moderately higher.


I've found this to be the most informative resource I've ever read on the topic:

http://how-i-did-it.org/762vs308/chamber.html

If you dont feel like reading it all, the basic gist of it boils down to headspace and case wall thickness.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by RickOShea » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:27 pm

crypto wrote:If you dont feel like reading it all, the basic gist of it boils down to headspace and case wall thickness.
Yeah, after reading some of the ".308 vs 7.62NATO" stuff, I checked the headspace on my 2A right after I got it.....then had it double-checked by a 'smith, just to be sure. :ooh:
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Hollis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:07 pm

RickOShea wrote: Yeah, after reading some of the ".308 vs 7.62NATO" stuff, I checked the headspace on my 2A right after I got it.....then had it double-checked by a 'smith, just to be sure. :ooh:

Wise choice. I would love to know the history of my old shooters. Imagine the story they could tell. Good reason to have them checked for shoot-ability and safety. We just don't know the their history.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by brothaman » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:12 am

Mauser. Especially if I can get one in 6.5 or 7mm. I'm finishing up a M91 Argy project now. That thing was shooting 2.5 inch groups with the Mil sight (after cleaning up the muzzle). I'm installing a peep and a better front sight.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Ookami86 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:47 am

I have several Mosins (including a Remington, a Chinese M53, and an Arsenal reworked M91/30), a pair of Swedish Mausers (one with an ATI stock, one original), and a sporterized Enfield. I like the Remington-made Mosin and the Mausers are surprisingly soft shooting, but when I want to take a long-range shot with minimal ammo use I reach for my Type 99 Arisaka.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:34 pm

(Facepalm). Sorry, I meant CUP, not PSI. I know they are different. I just retardedly typed the wrong one out of habit.

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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by hotlead » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:32 pm

Of the three, I think the SMLE is the superior battle rifle. Twice the onboard capacity, a very fast bolt once you get used to cock on closing, sights could be better but are perfectly fine for the purpose, plenty accurate, and .303 ball actually had a wooden plug in the nose giving great accuracy potential but also gave devastating terminal ballistics on soft targets. The only negative would be that of the three, the smelly is the only one susceptible to rim lock. If .303 was rimless, and it used receiver mounted peep sights, then I couldn't think of a more perfect bolt action battle rifle.

MNs are fun, I have a few, but certainly wouldn't be my first choice. The Mausers controlled feed fixed extractor precludes loading right into the chamber, for whatever that means to you. I'd like the option.

I vote SMLE.
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Re: Mosin vs. Enfield vs. Mauser--which and why?

Post by Slugg » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:56 am

I have an No4 Mk1 Enfield and Tula 91/30 mosin I believe. If money doesn't matter, I would choose the Enfield and buy as much ammo as I thought it could handle. for me .303brit is hard to find and a lot more expenisive so I tend to go with the mosin for that. My vote is the Enfield, but I don't see a problem with either and doubt you would ever say "dang, If I only had a mosin instead of an Enfield for this gunfight" or visa-versa.
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