Best SHTF Rifle for the money

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Best semi-auto SHTF Rifle for the money

AR Style Rifle - Direct Impingement
68
40%
AR Style Rifle - Gas Piston
11
6%
AK Style Rifle 7.62x39
28
16%
AK Style Rifle 5.54x39
8
5%
Ruger Mini-14
5
3%
Ruger Mini-30
0
No votes
Kel Tec SU-16
3
2%
Steyr Aug or similar style 5.56 clone
0
No votes
FN FS2000
0
No votes
Springfield M1a or M-14 clone
4
2%
FN-FAL
3
2%
Kel Tec RFB .308
0
No votes
AR-10
2
1%
HKG3 / CETME
4
2%
Saiga .308
2
1%
M1 Garand
2
1%
M1 Carbine
1
1%
Other
30
18%
 
Total votes: 171

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VeniVidiVici
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:19 pm

AnonEmouse wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
VeniVidiVici wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Still waiting to hear why thousand-yard competition shooting is important in a SHTF rifle.


It is a 1000 yard round and bucks win better than 5.56 nato. Just like I claimed.
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: Shooting known distance when the only pressure is competition and you can make wind adjustments on the fly and only have to worry about making steel ding or punching a hole in paper is a far sights different from real world shooting, but if you haven't done real world shooting I can see how it would alter your opinion.
BTW: My 1000+ yard range is my back yard and I've never punched paper on it.
IF it being a thousand-yard round isn't applicable to the scenario, then why keep bringing it up? 338 Laoua bucks wind and does distance much better than the M14 ever will, but it doesn't fit the scenario.

Nobody is getting butthurt, we're wondering why you keep bringing up competition distance shooting in a SHTF rifle thread.




Some rough math for y'all..............given a 200 yard zero..........

.223/5.56 3000fps ,62 grain............................drop at 1k yards.................45 moa or just over 471 inches , energy remaining will be right at the 125 ftlbs mark.

.308 , 155 grain Palma loading , 2800 fps...........drop at 1k yards ( from a 200 yard zero).............52.25 moa or 548 inches , energy left at target.............290 ftlbs.

And we haven't even gotten to the mils versus moa debate.
Looks like a trash .308 load to me.
7.62x51mm , 175 gr Siera Matchking HPBT, 2580 fps.......drop at 1k yards ( from a 200 yard zero).............-36.1 or -378.1 inches,
energy left at target.............601.8 ftlbs.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ You must be using a shorty barrel.
still waiting for the part where I said anything about 1k in shtf. :lol:
edit dyslexia ftl
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:32 pm

VeniVidiVici wrote:
AnonEmouse wrote: Looks like a trash .308 load to me.
7.62x51mm , 175 gr Siera Matchking HPBT, 2580 fps.......drop at 1k yards ( from a 200 yard zero).............-36.1 or -378.1 inches,
energy left at target.............601.8 ftlbs.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ You must be using a shorty barrel.
still waiting for the part where I said anything about 1k in shtf. :lol:
edit dyslexia ftl




BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA...................... don't know much about Palma competition do you. That's a statement not a question.

I've read your stuff , *you* won't be able to tell me anything as regards 7.62 x 51 that I don't already know , nor will you be likely to come up with a load I haven't loaded and chronoed *myself*.

It rather seems that you completely missed the whole point in favor of playing at being " butthurt" at someone stating a few realities for you. You are AWARE that Palma is limited to .308 and .223 are you not? You are AWARE that under many of the sets of rules and organisational bodies Palma ammunition is the standardised 155 grain I spoke of are you not? You are AWARE that Palma requires the use of iron ( micrometer) sights , are you not?

And by the way , how you mange3d to f*** up with the JBM ballistics calculator I haven't a CLUE , but your calcs and math are wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy in error.

200 yard zero , 175 grains , start at 2600 fps.................637 inches of drop at a 1000 yards , just under 61 moa. That's a rough calc but very , very close.

See , here is the difference between you and I. I actually shoot F class , Palma and heavy gun...............you....obviously not so much.

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:33 pm

VeniVidiVici wrote:
AnonEmouse wrote: Looks like a trash .308 load to me.
7.62x51mm , 175 gr Siera Matchking HPBT, 2580 fps.......drop at 1k yards ( from a 200 yard zero).............-36.1 or -378.1 inches,
energy left at target.............601.8 ftlbs.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ You must be using a shorty barrel.
still waiting for the part where I said anything about 1k in shtf. :lol:
edit dyslexia ftl




BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA...................... don't know much about Palma competition do you. That's a statement not a question.

I've read your stuff , *you* won't be able to tell me anything as regards 7.62 x 51 that I don't already know , nor will you be likely to come up with a load I haven't loaded and chronoed *myself*.

It rather seems that you completely missed the whole point in favor of playing at being " butthurt" at someone stating a few realities for you. You are AWARE that Palma is limited to .308 and .223 are you not? You are AWARE that under many of the sets of rules and organisational bodies Palma ammunition is the standardised 155 grain I spoke of are you not? You are AWARE that Palma requires the use of iron ( micrometer) sights , are you not?

And by the way , how you mange3d to f*** up with the JBM ballistics calculator I haven't a CLUE , but your calcs and math are wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy in error.

200 yard zero , 175 grains , start at 2600 fps.................397 plus inches of drop at a 1000 yards , 37.9 moa moa. That's a rough calc but very , very close. keep in mind that it's only .51 b.c over 2800 , under 2800 and down to the 2k level it's .49.

See , here is the difference between you and I. I actually shoot F class , Palma and heavy gun...............you....obviously not so much.


And her's the kicker to the above little screed of yours , at this time Sierra also offers both the 168 and 180 Matchkings , both of which perform better than the 175.
Last edited by AnonEmouse on Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:36 pm

AnonEmouse wrote:
VeniVidiVici wrote:
AnonEmouse wrote: Looks like a trash .308 load to me.
7.62x51mm , 175 gr Siera Matchking HPBT, 2580 fps.......drop at 1k yards ( from a 200 yard zero).............-36.1 or -378.1 inches,
energy left at target.............601.8 ftlbs.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ You must be using a shorty barrel.
still waiting for the part where I said anything about 1k in shtf. :lol:
edit dyslexia ftl




BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA...................... don't know much about Palma competition do you. That's a statement not a question.

I've read your stuff , *you* won't be able to tell me anything as regards 7.62 x 51 that I don't already know , nor will you be likely to come up with a load I haven't loaded and chronoed *myself*.

It rather seems that you completely missed the whole point in favor of playing at being " butthurt" at someone stating a few realities for you. You are AWARE that Palma is limited to .308 and .223 are you not? You are AWARE that under many of the sets of rules and organisational bodies Palma ammunition is the standardised 155 grain I spoke of are you not? You are AWARE that Palma requires the use of iron ( micrometer) sights , are you not?

And by the way , how you mange3d to f*** up with the JBM ballistics calculator I haven't a CLUE , but your calcs and math are wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy in error.

200 yard zero , 175 grains , start at 2600 fps.................637 inches of drop at a 1000 yards , just under 61 moa. That's a rough calc but very , very close.

See , here is the difference between you and I. I actually shoot F class , Palma and heavy gun...............you....obviously not so much.
:lol: At my elevation and atmospheric conditions the bullet performs just like I said it does. Nice to see someone jump off the deep end though. Quite funny.

ETA: Like I said, I NEVER punch paper. *unless to zero*

ETA2: Corrected #s for the butthurt crew.
3605.0 ft
Humidity47%
Wind SpeedSW 10 mph
Barometer30.03 in (1011.9 mb)
Dewpoint60°F (16°C)
Visibility10.00 mi
Heat Index82°F (28°C)




0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2585.2 2.266 2596.5 0.000 0.0 ***
100 2.2 2.1 0.6 0.6 2432.1 2.132 2298.0 0.120 21.1 20.1
200 -0.0 -0.0 2.6 1.2 2284.1 2.002 2026.9 0.247 43.5 20.8
300 -8.9 -2.8 6.1 1.9 2141.2 1.877 1781.3 0.383 67.3 21.4
400 -25.3 -6.0 11.1 2.7 2003.6 1.756 1559.7 0.527 92.8 22.2
500 -50.4 -9.6 18.0 3.4 1871.7 1.640 1361.0 0.682 120.1 22.9
600 -85.5 -13.6 26.8 4.3 1744.5 1.529 1182.4 0.848 149.3 23.8
700 -132.0 -18.0 37.7 5.1 1622.9 1.422 1023.3 1.027 180.7 24.7
800 -191.7 -22.9 51.1 6.1 1509.2 1.323 885.0 1.218 214.5 25.6
900 -266.8 -28.3 66.9 7.1 1404.6 1.231 766.5 1.425 250.7 26.6
1000 -359.4 -34.3 85.4 8.2 1310.3 1.148 667.1 1.646 289.7 27.7
1100 -472.3 -41.0 106.7 9.3 1227.7 1.076 585.6 1.883 331.4 28.8
1200 -608.4 -48.4 130.6 10.4 1157.9 1.015 520.9 2.135 375.7 29.9
1300 -770.3 -56.6 157.1 11.5 1100.7 0.965 470.7 2.401 422.6 31.0

She's good out to 1200. Plug in your Palma bench shooting load. It should perform better in real world conditions. :wink:

ETA3: Wind is made up, we are near 25mph here but, I set it at 10mph.
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:55 pm

VeniVidiVici wrote:
AnonEmouse wrote:
VeniVidiVici wrote:
AnonEmouse wrote: Looks like a trash .308 load to me.
7.62x51mm , 175 gr Siera Matchking HPBT, 2580 fps.......drop at 1k yards ( from a 200 yard zero).............-36.1 or -378.1 inches,
energy left at target.............601.8 ftlbs.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ You must be using a shorty barrel.
still waiting for the part where I said anything about 1k in shtf. :lol:
edit dyslexia ftl




BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA...................... don't know much about Palma competition do you. That's a statement not a question.

I've read your stuff , *you* won't be able to tell me anything as regards 7.62 x 51 that I don't already know , nor will you be likely to come up with a load I haven't loaded and chronoed *myself*.

It rather seems that you completely missed the whole point in favor of playing at being " butthurt" at someone stating a few realities for you. You are AWARE that Palma is limited to .308 and .223 are you not? You are AWARE that under many of the sets of rules and organisational bodies Palma ammunition is the standardised 155 grain I spoke of are you not? You are AWARE that Palma requires the use of iron ( micrometer) sights , are you not?

And by the way , how you mange3d to f*** up with the JBM ballistics calculator I haven't a CLUE , but your calcs and math are wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy in error.

200 yard zero , 175 grains , start at 2600 fps.................637 inches of drop at a 1000 yards , just under 61 moa. That's a rough calc but very , very close.

See , here is the difference between you and I. I actually shoot F class , Palma and heavy gun...............you....obviously not so much.
:lol: At my elevation and atmospheric conditions the bullet performs just like I said it does. Nice to see someone jump off the deep end though. Quite funny.

ETA: Like I said, I NEVER punch paper. *unless to zero*




I fucked the b.c. , I'm still correct though and you've still missed the point. And I've gotta laugh at your assumptions and the facts of that " I never punch paper" chest beating bullshit.

Especially given your location , I was *born* in Victoria , don't try to bullshit another Texan who knows the terrain , and don't try to tell me that every time you shoot a thousand yards down there that there is meat on the other end. Furthermore if you're such a magical shot , then show up at an F Class shoot , you should be handily able to outshoot all those mere " paperpunchers" , hell Tubbs and the rest should have nothing on you at all should they?

How much time you figure you have to dope your glass before that hog moves?

Quite simply . you're attempting to blow smoke up folks skirts here , you're not going to blow any up mine. You're just another fanboi attempting to appear to be something you're not to a buncha folks on a survival forum , and now you're butthurt when someone called you on your bullshit.

Yahhhhh , you " never punch paper" ROTFLMAO at that one , yep all those guys " punching paper" at Lewis McChord , Bragg etc.etc. to the tune of a thousand rounds a week to stay in shape are just " paper punchers" and you're just so much better than them , yup Tierney , Tubbs , Ballard , Bob Brock etc.etc..............yeah they're just mere tyros compared to you.........

Now go pound your chest some more and try to impress some folks , it ain't aFLYING with me.

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:59 pm

AnonEmouse wrote:
I fucked the b.c. , I'm still correct though and you've still missed the point. And I've gotta laugh at your assumptions and the facts of that " I never punch paper" chest beating bullshit.

Especially given your location , I was *born* in Victoria , don't try to bullshit another Texan who knows the terrain , and don't try to tell me that every time you shoot a thousand yards down there that there is meat on the other end. Furthermore if you're such a magical shot , then show up at an F Class shoot , you should be handily able to outshoot all those mere " paperpunchers" , hell Tubbs and the rest should have nothing on you at all should they?

How much time you figure you have to dope your glass before that hog moves?

Quite simply . you're attempting to blow smoke up folks skirts here , you're not going to blow any up mine. You're just another fanboi attempting to appear to be something you're not to a buncha folks on a survival forum , and now you're butthurt when someone called you on your bullshit.

Yahhhhh , you " never punch paper" ROTFLMAO at that one , yep all those guys " punching paper" at Lewis McChord , Bragg etc.etc. to the tune of a thousand rounds a week to stay in shape are just " paper punchers" and you're just so much better than them , yup Tierney , Tubbs , Ballard , Bob Brock etc.etc..............yeah they're just mere tyros compared to you.........

Now go pound your chest some more and try to impress some folks , it ain't aFLYING with me.
:lol: Never said anything against paper punchers. It's just boring to me. I prefer shooting steel mostly. Not interested in match shooting either. You didn't fact check before you started ranting and that's why you got asshurt.
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by Maverick299 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:59 pm

637 inches of drop at 1000?!?!?!?! Hope that was a typo.

Here's my load data for the 168 gr Matchkings that I shoot.

993' elevation
75 degrees
65% humidity
Zero Incline
Zero wind
2667 muzzle velocity
2620 muzzle energy
Retained velocity at 1000 1232fps
Retained energy at 1000 566 ft-lbs

10.45 MRAD adjustment which = 376"

And by the way, I don't know any precision shooters that zero at 200. They zero at 100 and make corrections with the turrets or the reticle per their load dope. Typically with a 20 MOA angled scope mount.

VVV's load data looks very similar to mine.
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:12 pm

VeniVidiVici wrote:



ETA2: Corrected #s for the butthurt crew.
3605.0 ft
Humidity47%
Wind SpeedSW 10 mph
Barometer30.03 in (1011.9 mb)
Dewpoint60°F (16°C)
Visibility10.00 mi
Heat Index82°F (28°C)




0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2585.2 2.266 2596.5 0.000 0.0 ***
100 2.2 2.1 0.6 0.6 2432.1 2.132 2298.0 0.120 21.1 20.1
200 -0.0 -0.0 2.6 1.2 2284.1 2.002 2026.9 0.247 43.5 20.8
300 -8.9 -2.8 6.1 1.9 2141.2 1.877 1781.3 0.383 67.3 21.4
400 -25.3 -6.0 11.1 2.7 2003.6 1.756 1559.7 0.527 92.8 22.2
500 -50.4 -9.6 18.0 3.4 1871.7 1.640 1361.0 0.682 120.1 22.9
600 -85.5 -13.6 26.8 4.3 1744.5 1.529 1182.4 0.848 149.3 23.8
700 -132.0 -18.0 37.7 5.1 1622.9 1.422 1023.3 1.027 180.7 24.7
800 -191.7 -22.9 51.1 6.1 1509.2 1.323 885.0 1.218 214.5 25.6
900 -266.8 -28.3 66.9 7.1 1404.6 1.231 766.5 1.425 250.7 26.6
1000 -359.4 -34.3 85.4 8.2 1310.3 1.148 667.1 1.646 289.7 27.7
1100 -472.3 -41.0 106.7 9.3 1227.7 1.076 585.6 1.883 331.4 28.8
1200 -608.4 -48.4 130.6 10.4 1157.9 1.015 520.9 2.135 375.7 29.9
1300 -770.3 -56.6 157.1 11.5 1100.7 0.965 470.7 2.401 422.6 31.0

She's good out to 1200. Plug in your Palma bench shooting load. It should perform better in real world conditions. :wink:

ETA3: Wind is made up, we are near 25mph here but, I set it at 10mph.



Your calcs are off for the Sierra 175 matchking , and AGAIN you sidestep the issue of setting your dope in a field environment , don't even bother with an attempt to argue the point. I *guide* for a part of my living up here and tell you what , from a 200 yard zero by the time you've cranked in 34 moa ( using your calcs) and your wind correction for the given wind that sheep or eLK HAS MOST LIKELY moved , if you get my drift.

I'm still laughing at you slagging off Palma and it's competitors , folks how hit their mark with micrometer sights and that " shitty load".

And you've still completely missed the point that both Doc f and I have made , along with the corollary point that a rifle set up for a thousand yards has little to do with a MBR oriented platform , the correction factors , the time involved , ranging the target accurately and a whole host of other factors, including the adjustment range in moa or mils of the specific glass in use.

But hey what would all those " mere paper punchers" know about ballistics anyway. By the way , how many .308s ya seeing in F-Class , Heavy and light rifle nowadays? Kkkkeeeeeerrriiiiist on the proverbial crutch but you .308 fanbois are deluded ( of course now you'll run off about the M24 AND m40 platforms............)

Bottom line , the thousand yard mark doesn't even enter into the original question of this thread , nor do your fanciful tales of your prowess. Get back to me when you're dusting off the various 6.5 and .284 boys in F class..................you ARE able to do that aren't you? Them being just " paperpuncers" and all.......

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by eeb » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:14 pm

To interrupted the 1000 yd pissing match, I went for the D.I. AR as there are a lot of parts and a reasonable amount of ammo around here. Plus I've seen photos of hmong fighters running well used M16s some 35 yrs later, pretty shtf in my opinion, probably not subjected to regular maintenance.
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:22 pm

AnonEmouse wrote:

Your calcs are off for the Sierra 175 matchking , and AGAIN you sidestep the issue of setting your dope in a field environment , don't even bother with an attempt to argue the point. I *guide* for a part of my living up here and tell you what , from a 200 yard zero by the time you've cranked in 34 moa ( using your calcs) and your wind correction for the given wind that sheep or eLK HAS MOST LIKELY moved , if you get my drift.

I'm still laughing at you slagging off Palma and it's competitors , folks how hit their mark with micrometer sights and that " shitty load".

And you've still completely missed the point that both Doc f and I have made , along with the corollary point that a rifle set up for a thousand yards has little to do with a MBR oriented platform , the correction factors , the time involved , ranging the target accurately and a whole host of other factors, including the adjustment range in moa or mils of the specific glass in use.

But hey what would all those " mere paper punchers" know about ballistics anyway. By the way , how many .308s ya seeing in F-Class , Heavy and light rifle nowadays? Kkkkeeeeeerrriiiiist on the proverbial crutch but you .308 fanbois are deluded ( of course now you'll run off about the M24 AND m40 platforms............)

Bottom line , the thousand yard mark doesn't even enter into the original question of this thread , nor do your fanciful tales of your prowess. Get back to me when you're dusting off the various 6.5 and .284 boys in F class..................you ARE able to do that aren't you? Them being just " paperpuncers" and all.......
If the calcs are off then I'll send in an error report to JBM. Not bothering with the rest since it's not something I've brought up. Hunting? Never mentioned. Competing in matches? Also not mentioned. If you want to argue with yourself that's fine. Great entertainment.
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by eeb » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:27 pm

Hunting isn't part of the equation in a shft scenario? How you gonna eat, after your MREs are gone?
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:31 pm

eeb wrote:Hunting isn't part of the equation in a shft scenario? How you gonna eat, after your MREs are gone?
How could you possibly read that post and get that out of it?
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by eeb » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:39 pm

Just arguing with myself. Aren't you entertained?
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:41 pm

eeb wrote:Just arguing with myself. Aren't you entertained?
:lol: :clap:
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:51 pm

Maverick299 wrote:637 inches of drop at 1000?!?!?!?! Hope that was a typo.


Typo and forget to enter proper B.c. for the 175 matchkings.


Here's the point *again* , how many folks are shooting glass with the necessary range of adjustment , mounted on the proper rails etc?

Here's the math , this applies to the 155 Scenar , the 155.5 Bergers and the old 155 Matchking , out of a 27 tube I see 3000fps with any of 'em but this is based on the 2800 mark most folks will see out of a 24 inch tube................b.c. for all of them runs around the .46 mark ( G7 b.c.) , the best bullets , in carefully prepped and loaded cases , weighed charges.......... etc.etc.

200 yard zero gives 349.4 inches of drop at a 1000 , which is a 33.4 moa come up.

500 yard zero is still 258.4 inches of drop at 1000 and a come up of 24.7 moa and will be a shade under 11 inches high at 100 yards and right under 20 inches high at 250 yards.

Are y'all getting my point yet? Think about your dope time in a stress situation.

By the way , the above loads , usually built with Varget (48 grains) or N150 ( 43 grains or more) go .24 to .38 moa at 100 out of a BAT actioned , Bartlein barreled bench rifle.

Within the context of this debate , the 7.62 battle rifles aren't capable on consistent 1000 yard accuracy , this is a fact. It's not their niche and never was , and the shooters who are so capable are few and far between even given the proper platform setup in the proper way.

What do *I* demand out of my M1A1 , FAL or the Garand? Acceptable 500 yard accuracy , beyond that I'll utilise something else or bug the hell out of the situation.

By the way , my hunting clients , most get told from the jump that they won't be allowed to take a plus 500 shot , we'll stalk closer. Unless you spend a *great* deal of time on the range punching paer and dinging steel , or a great deal of time in the p-Dog fields or turning Ground squirrels into red mist at distance most folks have no business taking such shots , wounding game animals is irresponsible.

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:01 pm

VeniVidiVici wrote:
If the calcs are off then I'll send in an error report to JBM. Not bothering with the rest since it's not something I've brought up. Hunting? Never mentioned. Competing in matches? Also not mentioned. If you want to argue with yourself that's fine. Great entertainment.



And now I *know* you're full of shit. You " never paperpunch" yet there is always something at the end of your trajectory. You're clueless as regards how many rounds a week *actual* shooters put down range just to stay in shooting shape.

Non Hunter , non competitor , non paperpuncher................but you're this world class magical shot at a 1000 and over with a .308 /7.62 x 51....................... " sniff , sniff ,sssnnnniiiiiifffffffffff".....................is that the redolent aroma of male bovine excremental leavings I detect wafting about?

Hmmmm , lets see here ,I got my Elk , 2 Antelope , a Muley and a pretty damned good Sheep this last season...................come on up and I'll put you on some coyotes and some P-Dogs at a thousand yards , we'll find out if you're as good as you say you are , and I'll even provide the food and make Moose Chili.

And hey exploding ground squirrels at 400 or so should be a walk in the park for you..............right?

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:23 pm

AnonEmouse wrote:
VeniVidiVici wrote:
If the calcs are off then I'll send in an error report to JBM. Not bothering with the rest since it's not something I've brought up. Hunting? Never mentioned. Competing in matches? Also not mentioned. If you want to argue with yourself that's fine. Great entertainment.



And now I *know* you're full of shit. You " never paperpunch" yet there is always something at the end of your trajectory. You're clueless as regards how many rounds a week *actual* shooters put down range just to stay in shooting shape.

Non Hunter , non competitor , non paperpuncher................but you're this world class magical shot at a 1000 and over with a .308 /7.62 x 51....................... " sniff , sniff ,sssnnnniiiiiifffffffffff".....................is that the redolent aroma of male bovine excremental leavings I detect wafting about?

Hmmmm , lets see here ,I got my Elk , 2 Antelope , a Muley and a pretty damned good Sheep this last season...................come on up and I'll put you on some coyotes and some P-Dogs at a thousand yards , we'll find out if you're as good as you say you are , and I'll even provide the food and make Moose Chili.

And hey exploding ground squirrels at 400 or so should be a walk in the park for you..............right?
:lol:
Is the non hunter statement coming from voices in your head? Because it's not something I've said. I ignored it since it's obvious you are fanatical about your hunting/competition "exploits."

For the record, I don't shoot animals for fun and wouldn't fit in at a "guided" hunt with guys from the burbs wanting to prove how country they are. :lol: As I've said before, I shoot steel on my own property 95% of the time, the occasional coyote/hog for asset protection, and yes *gasp* I hunt if I want some variety in my diet. My favorite hunting caliber? *gasp* 45-70 with a black powder load.

Favorite gun? Probably a Parker SxS 12 gauge. Not the M24/M40 bolt like you expected me to defend. I'd never buy a .308 bolt gun. I prefer .30 Newton.

ETA: Post up the "correct" numbers for 175gr HPBT Matchkings so I can submit them to JBM. :mrgreen:
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:09 pm

VeniVidiVici wrote: Is the non hunter statement coming from voices in your head? Because it's not something I've said. I ignored it since it's obvious you are fanatical about your hunting/competition "exploits."

For the record, I don't shoot animals for fun and wouldn't fit in at a "guided" hunt with guys from the burbs wanting to prove how country they are. :lol: As I've said before, I shoot steel on my own property 95% of the time, the occasional coyote/hog for asset protection, and yes *gasp* I hunt if I want some variety in my diet. My favorite hunting caliber? *gasp* 45-70 with a black powder load.

Favorite gun? Probably a Parker SxS 12 gauge. Not the M24/M40 bolt like you expected me to defend. I'd never buy a .308 bolt gun. I prefer .30 Newton.

ETA: Post up the "correct" numbers for 175gr HPBT Matchkings so I can submit them to JBM. :mrgreen:


Oh now I'm a " fanatic" , that's rich coming from a " I never punch paper" clown such as yourself. And that " guys from the burbs" shows your dramatic lack of knowledge of whereof you speak.

You've become nothing more than a chihuahua yapping behind a fence , and now one with a quasi PETA type rhetoric to boot " I don't hunt for fun".

And .45-70..............you really don't want to go there with me , I spend a good portion of the year out of Larsens Bay , where there are more Brownies than anyplace else save across on the Katmai and my choice of DLP rifle is a '95 Guide Gun in .45-70.

And " add to the diet"....pppuuulllllleeeeeeease , if you're living bush you'll have no "diet" if you don't hunt and fish. But then your sort thinks meat comes in a package at Krogers.

And the .30 Adolph Express?(orignal name of the .30 newton) Pullleeeaaassseeee , it's archaic and outperformed by *ANY* of the .30 magnums by a significant degree.

And then we move on to " I'd never buy a .308 bolt rifle" so let me get this straight , you're yapping on and on about the performance of .308 in a distance setting yet you don't even shoot the chambering? Somehow that figures.

In closing , far from bragging on " exploits" ( which YOU have consistently done throughout this debate) I have put up *direct experience* with the chambering in question , you ....not so much. But hey " ringing steel" is significantly different than " punching paper".......sure it is , I believe you , sure I do.

And 'ringing steel' is significantly different/better experience than correctly placing a slug so as to accomplish killing the target animal as cleanly and quickly as possible......................yeah I buy into that one too.

I'll say what I damn please about Texas and Texans since I'm a native of the state , it's folks like yourself whose EGO needs a damn enema that gives other folks a negative view of the state.

Now run along and ring your steel , me I think I'll drag out the .22-243 middlestead and dink some ground squirrels. I'll be at a match down thataway in August with a bunch of other "paperpunchers" , come on out and show us all up and teach us how to shoot , they're even gonna have a gong set up at 1760 , I'm sure you'll go ten for ten on that one and win the F Class thousand yard event along with light gun and heavy gun , hell you should even ace out the railgun bunch.

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:26 pm

Oh VVV.....here ya go , and ****DIRECTLY**** from my logs , not JBMs calc application..........

175 matchking , winchester brass , 41.3 grains of h335 ,210m primer , c.o.l 2.81 inchs ......2565 fps out of a 24 inch Savage ( utilising an " ordinary rifle instead of one of my bench rifles)


500 yard zero.

13.3 inches high at 100

22 high at 200

23.5 high at 300

16.7 high at 400

on at 500

305 inches low at 1000 yards

**** 200 yard zero ****

2.3 high at 100

on at 200

9.5 low at 300

55 low at 500

415 low at 1000 yards

Remainder energy at 1000 yards 522 ftlbs , remainder velocity at 1000 1168 fps , flight time to 1000 1.785 seconds.

Non corrected for wind , mean temp 60 degrees , mean barometer 29.2 , non corrected for altitude considerations.


Now deal with it.

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by Maverick299 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:56 pm

I'm not even sure what the hell the argument is anymore. That your ballistics are slightly different or that your ballistics are the only correct ones or that you are the best shooter and hunter around and have better equipment and more money wrapped up in glass than anyone else has in their safe? If you want to impress some people go on over to snipers hide and start telling those guys whats what.
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:07 pm

Maverick299 wrote:I'm not even sure what the hell the argument is anymore. That your ballistics are slightly different or that your ballistics are the only correct ones or that you are the best shooter and hunter around and have better equipment and more money wrapped up in glass than anyone else has in their safe? If you want to impress some people go on over to snipers hide and start telling those guys whats what.
I think it went from "the M14 is the best SHTF rifle for the money because it can be configured and used for long-distance competition shooting" to "NO I KNOWS MORE BOUT CHUTE DAN YOU."

It's been a laugh, let me tell you.
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by AnonEmouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:53 pm

Maverick299 wrote:I'm not even sure what the hell the argument is anymore. That your ballistics are slightly different or that your ballistics are the only correct ones or that you are the best shooter and hunter around and have better equipment and more money wrapped up in glass than anyone else has in their safe? If you want to impress some people go on over to snipers hide and start telling those guys whats what.


Where did I *ever* state that I was the best at anything? Find that and quote it. I gotta laugh at your comment about Snipers Hide since of course I'm on there. Why don't YOU and VVV come one over and he can run his crap over there , it'll make this seem *real* mild.. Gotta laugh at your comment on equipment since of course you're grasping at straws , equipment makes a difference.

And back to the point , folks looking towards an MBR shouldn't be worried about thousand yard performance , refer back to what both DocF and myself have stated as regards doping out your glass......

Everybody and their dog claims to be a thousand yard "shot" , very few folks actually are , in point of fact a good many folks can't even SEE a man in cover at a thousand yards.

And yeah I have a lot of money tied up in glass and the rifles it sets on , what's your point? I've also got the common sense to choose the proper horse for the given course , and when the confrontation/situation dictates a MBR it's assuredly not at 1000 yards.

Ironic that you accuse me of chestbeating in light of some of the rhetoric spouted.


Oh and the Vortex glass you cited , not bad for mid range but you're damn straight it doesn't hold up to U.S.Optics , S and B , Nightforce the higher end Leupolds , Swarovski , Zeiss or Huskemaw and others when you start to really get out there.

Anyway the point has been consistently missed , the 1k yard mark shouldn't even enter the equation as regards an MBR , and " paperpunching" is damn good practice and there is no difference between it and ringing the gong. Golly gee whiz but competitions such as Benning , Gastonia etc us paper targets............guess those guys just can't "shoot' since it's paper 'eh.

I think I've made my point , whether you and VVV are butthurt or not.

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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:03 pm

Maverick299 wrote:I'm not even sure what the hell the argument is anymore. That your ballistics are slightly different or that your ballistics are the only correct ones or that you are the best shooter and hunter around and have better equipment and more money wrapped up in glass than anyone else has in their safe? If you want to impress some people go on over to snipers hide and start telling those guys whats what.
There is no argument which is why it's so funny. I made a comment in passing as to why 7.62 was better than 5.56 to me when another poster talked about the cost. In fact, in my first post I recommended 5.56 for people w/o long range needs.
AnonEmouse wrote:Oh VVV.....here ya go , and ****DIRECTLY**** from my logs , not JBMs calc application..........
Now deal with it.
:lol: Unless you were shooting under identical conditions as the ones I posted the difference is expected and not an error. How can a competition/Palma shooter not know this? What were the conditions in your log?

Are you stupid or trolling?
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Re: Best SHTF Rifle for the money

Post by Maverick299 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:32 pm

AnonEmouse wrote:Oh VVV.....here ya go , and ****DIRECTLY**** from my logs , not JBMs calc application..........
Now deal with it.



:lol: Unless you were shooting under identical conditions as the ones I posted the difference is expected and not an error. How can a competition/Palma shooter not know this? What were the conditions in your log?

Are you stupid or trolling?
Exactly. 100 feet of elevation in the desert with 4% humidity out of a 28" barrel is entirely different than shooting uphill in the mountains at 70% humidity with a 24" barrel. Factor in some wind and any distance shooter worth his salt knows that whatever dope they have for their load/rifle might change from day to day and it sure as hell will change from rifle to rifle in different area's of the world.

I think we have flushed out a troll
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