Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by FrANkNstEin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:14 am

that would most likely be enough.

I've certainly seen it done before with very shallow rifling.

However, rifling wasn't mentioned in any shape, way or form before your post.... so i thought it would be prudent to explain what it will be without rifling...

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:59 am

The way I read the AoW description, I don't need rifling.

Quote:

"A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;"

My pistol is not designed to fire a shotgun shell. It is designed to fire a rimfire .22 cartridge.

Same for the famous 3d printed "Liberator" gun - legal, even though there's no rifling. It shoots .380 rounds.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by FrANkNstEin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:03 am

There are shotgun shells available for almost every handgun caliber though, including .22. Could be the reason most people who build homemade pistols in the US strongly suggest to put rifling in there, especially if you're gonna post in on the net.

It may sound silly, but i would'nt want to be the test case to find out wether the ATF or a judge will consider them snakeshot/ratshot rounds shells. With the printer guys, there might be more at play regarding the legality since they are a manufacturer as of late....

Well, your call

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:39 am

OK, I still don't think you can say I have DESIGNED it to fire a shotgun shell only because a laughable amount of .22s are shotgun rounds...

...but I can certainly scratch in a shallow rifling. Who knows, it might even increase accuracy.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:34 am

The thing is as ready as I can take it without breaking German law.

Means, the "barrel" isn't drilled (so it is just a bolt at this point), the breech face isn't installed, the firing pin isn't installed and the firing pin hole isn't drilled. In other words, this isn't a gun, it is a wooden toy.

The whole "barrel" part is exchangeable, so I can make barrels for different calibers. But I will also make one from plywood, stabilized with screws. That one excites me the most - a wooden gun, made with nothing but a bit of plywood, some nails and some screws, plus office rubber bands.

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by jamoni » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:54 am

They're pretty harsh on judging what constitutes rifling. A couple scratches won't do it. It needs to CLEARLY be effective rifling. I would go with four lands/grooves. I don't think two would be enough.
A rifling machine for a barrel that small should be easily within Joerg's capability.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:41 pm

You know, the guy I am doing this with said he can simply file the weapon with the FTA and pay the required tax. A rifling machine for a pistol that is used just for one video seems overkill.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by FrANkNstEin » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:25 pm

The thing is as ready as I can take it without breaking German law.

But you´d be breaking US law if you brought that to the USA without the right paperwork.

Means, the "barrel" isn't drilled (so it is just a bolt at this point), the breech face isn't installed, the firing pin isn't installed and the firing pin hole isn't drilled. In other words, this isn't a gun, it is a wooden toy.
Yeah. In Germany.

In the US, this would be the reciever. The reciever IS the gun in the USA, no matter if there´s no barrel or bolt in it.

Just like an AR15/M16 reciever that is nothing but a chunk of aluminium in Germany but considered "the firearm" in the US. Even when completely empty. Or better yet: compare it to a Glock Reciever. Can you buy one in Germany without a Gun Permit? No you can´t because on Pistols, it IS considered a major gun part and therefore not available over the counter.

Does that ring a bell?


I hate to be the nagging nancy again, but damnit: do your homework man. Your carefree ignorance about anything but the german laws in this INTERNATIONAL endeavor might be the winning ticket for a 10 year all inclusive vacation in a ClubFed Prison....

Just because you might be allowed to make it in the US, doesn´t mean you can just toss it in your luggage without doing the proper import paperwork for importing a firearm. Because that´s what you´d do if you just bring it along with you.

The "it´s a toy" approach might or might not work, if they detect it at all. The bottom line is: the shit that could happen when doing this range from "nothing happens" to "sitting at the airport for 8 hours before being arrested and tried for illegal importation of a firearm".



And don´t get me wrong: I simply don´t want you to get in trouble over what is essentially the same old zip-gun all of us have seen a hundred times over on Youtube before made in a hundred different ways (not in the exact configuration though), even with rubberbands as springs. Nothing new under the sun. Absolutely not worth to get into life changing trouble over it, so you should follow the letter of the law to the T.

Sorry for being such a Debbie Downer but someone has to say that stuff before you get hit by the book. :mrgreen:

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:57 pm

FrANkNstEin wrote:
The thing is as ready as I can take it without breaking German law.

But you´d be breaking US law if you brought that to the USA without the right paperwork.

Means, the "barrel" isn't drilled (so it is just a bolt at this point), the breech face isn't installed, the firing pin isn't installed and the firing pin hole isn't drilled. In other words, this isn't a gun, it is a wooden toy.
Yeah. In Germany.

In the US, this would be the reciever. The reciever IS the gun in the USA, no matter if there´s no barrel or bolt in it.

Just like an AR15/M16 reciever that is nothing but a chunk of aluminium in Germany but considered "the firearm" in the US. Even when completely empty. Or better yet: compare it to a Glock Reciever. Can you buy one in Germany without a Gun Permit? No you can´t because on Pistols, it IS considered a major gun part and therefore not available over the counter.

Does that ring a bell?


I hate to be the nagging nancy again, but damnit: do your homework man. Your carefree ignorance about anything but the german laws in this INTERNATIONAL endeavor might be the winning ticket for a 10 year all inclusive vacation in a ClubFed Prison....

Just because you might be allowed to make it in the US, doesn´t mean you can just toss it in your luggage without doing the proper import paperwork for importing a firearm. Because that´s what you´d do if you just bring it along with you.

The "it´s a toy" approach might or might not work, if they detect it at all. The bottom line is: the shit that could happen when doing this range from "nothing happens" to "sitting at the airport for 8 hours before being arrested and tried for illegal importation of a firearm".



And don´t get me wrong: I simply don´t want you to get in trouble over what is essentially the same old zip-gun all of us have seen a hundred times over on Youtube before made in a hundred different ways (not in the exact configuration though), even with rubberbands as springs. Nothing new under the sun. Absolutely not worth to get into life changing trouble over it, so you should follow the letter of the law to the T.

Sorry for being such a Debbie Downer but someone has to say that stuff before you get hit by the book. :mrgreen:
Wrong. That receiver hasn't been made a firearm yet, so it's not a receiver. Right now it's a model, a blank, whatever. I don't even know if it has the required 6oz of metal yet. It certainly doesn't have the proper place for the serial number or the manufacture/city/state required for a firearm receiver. That receiver can't be made into a firearm without some machining, so it's no more a receiver/firearm in the US than an 80% lower or a 2x4 is a receiver.

But I digress. He's going to be working with a manufacturer, so lets let the manufacturer deal with it. Or let ATF handle it, but if they declare that a firearm then the guy across from me at the gun show needs to start serializing the rubber-band-powered ping-pong ball shooters he sells that look a lot like those pictures.

ETA: Joerg, if you're really worried about it, unscrew the bolt and pack the two pieces separately. Still not a firearm.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:21 am

I think it gets really confusing...

If I can saw out a firearm from a plywood board, is the plywood board a firearm then?

At what point of the manufacturing process does a blank becomes the gun?

I will simply leave everything (physical) at home, just bring my know how to the US. Won't take long to saw the part out a second time.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Gingerbread Man » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:43 am

JoergS wrote:I think it gets really confusing...

If I can saw out a firearm from a plywood board, is the plywood board a firearm then?

At what point of the manufacturing process does a blank becomes the gun?

I will simply leave everything (physical) at home, just bring my know how to the US. Won't take long to saw the part out a second time.
I'm not sure when what becomes what or really when something becomes a firearm per ATF regs but the thing is neither does the TSA. It doesn't seem like it'd be worth the hassle or the hold up while they contemplate on what's in your possession. I'd suggest making blue prints and bringing those. It couldn't take that long to make one.

Hope that helps, remember, you're going to have a lot of on the ground help here by way of volunteers.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Boondock » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:48 am

JoergS wrote:The thing is as ready as I can take it without breaking German law.
That's a groovy zip gun. Nice concept.

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:33 pm

JoergS wrote:I think it gets really confusing...

If I can saw out a firearm from a plywood board, is the plywood board a firearm then?

At what point of the manufacturing process does a blank becomes the gun?

I will simply leave everything (physical) at home, just bring my know how to the US. Won't take long to saw the part out a second time.
It's not a firearm until it can be made to fire without machining. Otherwise an 80% lower would be a firearm.

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by FrANkNstEin » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:29 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
FrANkNstEin wrote:
The thing is as ready as I can take it without breaking German law.

But you´d be breaking US law if you brought that to the USA without the right paperwork.

Means, the "barrel" isn't drilled (so it is just a bolt at this point), the breech face isn't installed, the firing pin isn't installed and the firing pin hole isn't drilled. In other words, this isn't a gun, it is a wooden toy.
Yeah. In Germany.

In the US, this would be the reciever. The reciever IS the gun in the USA, no matter if there´s no barrel or bolt in it.

Just like an AR15/M16 reciever that is nothing but a chunk of aluminium in Germany but considered "the firearm" in the US. Even when completely empty. Or better yet: compare it to a Glock Reciever. Can you buy one in Germany without a Gun Permit? No you can´t because on Pistols, it IS considered a major gun part and therefore not available over the counter.

Does that ring a bell?


I hate to be the nagging nancy again, but damnit: do your homework man. Your carefree ignorance about anything but the german laws in this INTERNATIONAL endeavor might be the winning ticket for a 10 year all inclusive vacation in a ClubFed Prison....

Just because you might be allowed to make it in the US, doesn´t mean you can just toss it in your luggage without doing the proper import paperwork for importing a firearm. Because that´s what you´d do if you just bring it along with you.

The "it´s a toy" approach might or might not work, if they detect it at all. The bottom line is: the shit that could happen when doing this range from "nothing happens" to "sitting at the airport for 8 hours before being arrested and tried for illegal importation of a firearm".



And don´t get me wrong: I simply don´t want you to get in trouble over what is essentially the same old zip-gun all of us have seen a hundred times over on Youtube before made in a hundred different ways (not in the exact configuration though), even with rubberbands as springs. Nothing new under the sun. Absolutely not worth to get into life changing trouble over it, so you should follow the letter of the law to the T.

Sorry for being such a Debbie Downer but someone has to say that stuff before you get hit by the book. :mrgreen:
Wrong. That receiver hasn't been made a firearm yet, so it's not a receiver. Right now it's a model, a blank, whatever. I don't even know if it has the required 6oz of metal yet. It certainly doesn't have the proper place for the serial number or the manufacture/city/state required for a firearm receiver. That receiver can't be made into a firearm without some machining, so it's no more a receiver/firearm in the US than an 80% lower or a 2x4 is a receiver.

But I digress. He's going to be working with a manufacturer, so lets let the manufacturer deal with it. Or let ATF handle it, but if they declare that a firearm then the guy across from me at the gun show needs to start serializing the rubber-band-powered ping-pong ball shooters he sells that look a lot like those pictures.

ETA: Joerg, if you're really worried about it, unscrew the bolt and pack the two pieces separately. Still not a firearm.
it´s basically a working lower reciever. The Fire control group does work, all that´s missing is the barrel and the bolt.

One (the ATF) could argue it´s just like a 100% AR15 reciever or Glock reciever, and therefore, a firearm.

6oz of metal.... AFAIK, that´s like, a requirement for manufacturers or something. Just because, for instance, your AR15 reciever is 100% made out of wood, doesn´t mean that it´s not an AR15 reciever and subject to regulation. If you manufacturer something like that in the US, of course, no problem. But bringing something like that over from Europe, might be a problem!


I think it´s a very good idea to leave that thing at home, just to prevent any potential hassle with the TSA or ATF.

Better to be safe then sorry! Like i said, they could take the stance "oh it´s only an 80% reciever" or they could argue that "it´s a firearm as far as we´re concerned".

The main difference between that (complete) toy gun at the gun show and Joergs "toy gun" would be that Joerg explicitly stated that he will make it into a firearm. And have no doubt about it, the ATF and other Agencies ARE reading here and will pull those posts if neccesarry. (Hell, we do have at least one ZS member who does work for the ATF after all)
It's not a firearm until it can be made to fire without machining. Otherwise an 80% lower would be a firearm.
Sorry, i tend to disagree. An Ar15 reciever can not "fire" on it´s own and is still a "firearm" according to the US law. Add or even machine a barrel and a bolt, then it will fire. And still, the Lower Reciever is the firearm according to US law. Same with a pistol lower like a Glock Lower, it is the "restricted" part in the US while at the same time, you can buy as many barrels and slides as you damn well please as they are just pieces of metal according to your laws.

Joergs "reciever" is the same, it misses the bolt and the barrel, but the reciever itself would fire if these, in the US non regulated parts, would be added.

If it wasn´t that way, it´d be legal for Joerg and me to send or bring you shittons of M16 Full Auto recievers, after all, it´s only an 80% M16 according to this interpretation of the law.... Still we all know, dang, it would NOT be legal to do that. Even though an M16 reciever in most european countries, is just a chunk of metal and unregulated.....

The reason an 80% AR reciever is not a firearm is that (usually*) the fire control group does not fit in there without machining, it has nothing to do with no barrel and/or bolt/firing pin being present. (* yes, it could be the other way around too technically, if you had the FCG ready to go but the magwell etc. not finished, it would probably still be an 80% reciever. But since Joergs contraption does not have a mag, guess what: FCG ready to go would make it a 100% reciever imho. IF at all, it would be an 80% complete gun because the bolt/barrel are not machined out, but the reciever itself.... it´s a 100% reciever pretty much....)


And in this particular case, i would simply play it extra safe and not risk a big investigation where the ATF makes up their mind wheter Joergs wooden grip constitutes a firearm or not. Chances are 50/50 on this, in my opinion. They might let it slip or they might take the hardcore stance.

I think it´s a good idea to play it safe and make the reciever in the US, under oversight of the manufacturer he will be working with to prevent any possible trouble that might arise otherwise.

All it takes for it to go horribly wrong is a single agent thinking "damn´ that guy´s trying to smuggle in a Reciever" for the whole endeavor to go from fun and games to Nightmare.

*I* might be totally wrong, after all, it´s not my gun laws that we´re talking about. Maybe i missed something? I did read them though, more then once, and that´s what i get outta them and the practical shit that i witness....


While it´s a non starter nationally in most States of the US, as you´re allowed to make your own Lower without a serial number and whatnot, it´s a whole ´nother can of worms to import something like that on a whim without paperwork, IMHO. :?

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:57 pm

Mr Joerg,

These folk have their heart in the right place with their caution, but they are excessively cautious, at that. They mean well but most of them seem to have little knowledge of actual law in our country, and in their ignorance, insist you be well on the safer side than is necessary. While our ATF is sometimes as illogical as can be, your own logic in the plywood cut-out example is accurate enough. What you have is no more than a toy and does not come even close to being something that would raise eyebrows. Just put it in your checked baggage and not your carry-on bag, that travels with you in the cabin, when you fly.

If you're curious about checking out the existing laws on what our US laws define a firearm as being, the ATF website has some quoted sections from our Gun Control Act 1968 (GCA) and National Firearms Act 1934 (NFA)

For the sake of layman explanation, I'll refer to this page on their site:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/impo ... rearm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since what you have is no a receiver of a firearm, has never been a firearm, and cannot be made to chamber and expel a projectile from a cartridge through combustion, what you have is a hunk of wood, and not a firearm or even a firearm receiver. At this point, what I see if you have a rather ineffective pebble-launcher, and since you have an obvious history of making oddball rubber band powdered mechanisms, I see no reason to think that was anything but.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... 5300-4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Contains the gist of the US Code Chapter 44 text that governs our firearms definitions and restrictions. In Chapter 44 Section 921(a)(3) The term "readily convertible" does not include machining or even the drilling of holes, in this context, and applies more to the merely assembly of ready-made parts. If fabrication is required, it is not held as readily convertible.

Later, on page 76, we find more involved definitions for the purpose of identifying firearms in another context, which is classifying what /type/ of firearm a firearm is, once identified as being one. The barrel rifling spoken of earlier comes in to play here, in Section 5845; specifically Any-Other-Weapon, which is what they wish you to avoid unless you were to have a properly licensed FFL with appropriate SOT paid allow you to manufacture the firearm on his premise.

I think you'll find, though, that rifling a short barrel like that can be a matter of a simple jig and scraping tool that can easily take 0.005-0.015" off without all that much work. Alternatively, you could broach it, which, given the soft bolt steel, I think would be quite easy. The only trick to your fixture would be to control the twist of the broach as it is plunged into the barrel. A pipe with a helical slot cut into it can do this, but I understand you're trying to keep this rather simple in tools required. Maybe twisting the broach as you hammer it down would suffice - it doesn't have to be pretty :)

You sound like someone with an FFL and SOT has already offered to assist you, so instead of getting into classification differences of an AOW versus Pistol, I'd say just do whatever that gent suggests.

I just wanted to chime in and say that the reality of firearm law is nowhere near the doom-and-gloom some of these gents seem to indicate. What you have, really is just a hunk of wood, right now. Their ignorance or inexperience causes overcautious conjecture, is all.

I'm very pleased to see the progress so far and I eagerly await the final product! This is very interesting and entertaining.

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:05 pm

Frank: Look again. I said "without machining." That wodden toy with a hex bolt stick in one end cannot be made to fire as it is without drilling holes. Just like an 80% lower. He can't attach a pre-made barrel and fire it, because a pre-made barrel doesn't exist.

Again, by your logic the 2x4 next to me is a firearm, because right now I could turn it into what JoergS has with what's on my desk and the drill press in my garage, and the caulk gun hanging from my tool rack needs to go in the safe or get a "Sample: Not For Display" tag because right now it can be made to fire by just changing around a few springs and attaching a length of pipe for a barrel.

The TL:DR here is that I have the GCA and NFA handbooks next to me, JoergS is working with a manufacturer (07 with an SOT stamp, IIRC) and I'm not aware of your accreditation, but your logic is unsound. I'd be happily proven wrong if you have any sort of documentation to prove that JoergS's toy/mockup as pictures is anythign but a toy/mockup.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by jamoni » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:22 pm

What a lot of people aren't taking into account is that you do not have to be CONVICTED of a crime to be snatched off your flight, handcuffed, "thoroughly searched", and thrown in jail with a bunch of drunk fellows with very bad hygiene and a cornucopia of contagious diseases for an unspecified period of time. You just have to be ACCUSED.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by eeb » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:20 pm

Especially "danged furriners" :crazy: jk
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by crypto » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:57 pm

Dont ever assume shit like that or someone will be grabbing their ankles in PMITAP.

Joerg: you need to find some way to scribe rifling in any barrel you make, or its a shotgun under the law, and almost certainly a 'too-short' shotgun at that.

Rifle barrels need to be 16" long with an overall weapon length of 26", shotgun barrels need to be 18" long with an overall weapon length of 26".

Here is a good legality flowchart with respect to the National Firearms Act of 1934:

http://www.125gp.com/~jester/pics/gun/NFA-flowchart.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by FrANkNstEin » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:10 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Frank: Look again. I said "without machining." That wodden toy with a hex bolt stick in one end cannot be made to fire as it is without drilling holes. Just like an 80% lower. He can't attach a pre-made barrel and fire it, because a pre-made barrel doesn't exist.

Again, by your logic the 2x4 next to me is a firearm, because right now I could turn it into what JoergS has with what's on my desk and the drill press in my garage, and the caulk gun hanging from my tool rack needs to go in the safe or get a "Sample: Not For Display" tag because right now it can be made to fire by just changing around a few springs and attaching a length of pipe for a barrel.

The TL:DR here is that I have the GCA and NFA handbooks next to me, JoergS is working with a manufacturer (07 with an SOT stamp, IIRC) and I'm not aware of your accreditation, but your logic is unsound. I'd be happily proven wrong if you have any sort of documentation to prove that JoergS's toy/mockup as pictures is anythign but a toy/mockup.

Your 2x4 would be a 0% receiver. Because you would have to machine the FCG pocket as well as holes to fix the FCG into place. Joergs receiver does have all the wholes required for a fire control group as well as the FCG installed.

On Joergs thing the receiver/fire control group in themselves are working the way they are intended, trigger is pulled, hammer drops (or releases the bolt in this case like on an open bolt gun of course) , just like in a 100% AR15 Receiver.

And contrary to your caulk gun, this is intended to become a firearm and it has no other function then becoming a firearm.

The receiver itself in Joergs case, does not need any more machining. It´s the accessory parts required to make it work as a firearm that need the machining be done. But the US law does not care about your barrel, whether you buy it or make it yourself or whatnot (as long as it meets certain OAL´s for different guns of course) or bolt, it does only care about the receiver. A receiver that in this particular case, does not need any more machining. It´s done. It´s 100%

It does not matter IMHO if the barrel is not drilled or the bolt nonexistent as of now. As the US law does not care ONE bit about barrels or bolts. As far as US Law is concerned, these parts might as well not exist at all but that does´nt take away it´s definition of what constitutes the actual firearm by law, which is the Receiver. Be it a Glock, An AR, an AK47 or whatnot. On these guns, barrels and bolt don´t matter at all when it comes to the definition of a 100% receiver.

Because by the same logic you seem to be using on Joergs gun, i could legally send you and you could legally own a European de-milled M16 where only the barrel and the bolt do not function anymore or are replaced by dummies. But that doesn´t make the reciever an 80% reciever, or does it? It makes the thing a non working gun, but it does nothing to the status of the reciever.

It´s still the same darn reciever that the ATF considers a firearm or in this case, machine gun.

If you drill that M16 barrel yourself at a later date, does it make your unregistered reciever anymore legal? Or is it legal if you never drill the barrel at all? I don´t think so.

Or by the same logic, you could build any Full Auto Lower reciever you wish as long as no commercial product upper reciever or barrel or bolt will fit on there and you´d have to make it yourself. Just like Joergs non drilled hexbolt barrel or bolt.

But i don´t think that´s the case, or is it?


I am simply applying the same logic here as is commonplace in other guns where the legalities are well known. Unless whatever three letter agency ends up with the case totally goes upside down viewing this thing, contrary to everything else that´s out there, i don´t see a different outcome to this.

It could be different, but it would be nothing but a GAMBLE that could go horribly wrong for Joerg.



And yes, i´m especially taking into account that Joerg will have to pass through at least two airports with that thing. So while it may be absolutely no problem domestically, as you are allowed to make such a thing for yourself no matter if it´s 80%, 90% or 100% done, it could prove to be a big problem when Borders are involved.

Joerg posting under his real name and being easily findable won´t help him at all when some Agent spouts "we don´t believe you that this thing is a mockup or toygun, after all, i´ve found these posts on the internet from you Mr. Sprave where you explicitly state you are going to make a firearm out of this toygun and even shared the whole plan how you´re gonna do it". Constructive Intent, anyone?


As for my credentials or whatnot, i´m just a guy on the internet who thinks he has a pretty good understanding of basic firearms laws in some country foreign to him, due to simple interest. So take it for what it´s worth.



If, what i think is a 100% Reciever, and others think it´s only an 80% Reciever must be brought into the US in this configuration, i would advise to write the ATF Technical branch about it and get a letter from them saying what it is as far as they are concerned and transport it along with the "Thing". It would be the safest bet, but it would probably take too long.

The second safest bet would be to make that thing in the US and avoid the potential hassle of bringing it into the country as is at all.

Because it might be pretty clear cut when used/made domestically because as a homemade piece, there really is no clear cut that you would have to follow for it being legal. It is legal at all stages, be it 1% or 100%. But Importation is a whole ´nother can of worms and details will probably matter.


For example. I own SBR´s. These are legal in Austria. They are legal in the US. And still, i can´t IMPORT or otherwise bring them to the US for my personal use. There are no provisions to import such stuff into the US as a tourist. If i wanted to come hunting as a tourist, i would have no way to bring one of my SBR´s with me to hunt with or for simple range time. Doesn´t matter that SBR´s are legal in both countries, does not matter if there are places that allow hunting with SBR´s.

You simply can´t according to my investigation on the subject matter. The only loophole would be to register it as an SBR in the USA, which i would be willing to do. But you can´t register an SBR in the US as a foreigner as far as i found out. So, no dice.

This is just an example for restrictions upon import that many would not think of off the top of their heads, but they are in place.

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:37 pm

US law is not 100%. Some handguns (Ruger MK series among them) contain the FCG in the unregistered/unserialized portion.

But my point was that since the parts to make it a firearm don't yet exist, it cannot be a firearm anymore than my caulk gun can.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:53 pm

That frame will need machining to be functional. I am not THAT stupid.

The hole for the firing pin is not drilled, and it is not so easy to do that. It must be JUST at the right place.

Furthermore, the bolt face needs to be made (from steel or so) and somehow attached to the wood, otherwise the gun will not function.

These jobs are the most critical and complicated ones in the whole process.

All I made so far is a bunch of wooden parts. No metalwork.

In this condition, it is a toy gun, that is all. It is WAY easier to print out the parts for the Liberator 3D gun than to make a working gun out of the piece I have.

But as I said, I won't take it with me anyway. I'll play it safe and remake it in the US.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by FrANkNstEin » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:56 pm

I´m positive that you will heed all warnings expressed Joerg.

However, i want to point out:
The hole for the firing pin is not drilled, and it is not so easy to do that. It must be JUST at the right place.

Furthermore, the bolt face needs to be made (from steel or so) and somehow attached to the wood, otherwise the gun will not function.

These jobs are the most critical and complicated ones in the whole process.
US Law doesn´t care ONE BIT if these steps you describe are taken or not. It´s only your german laws that cares! Is that really so hard to understand? You mix up your laws with US laws and in the end... it´s simply no bueno! (It´s even retarded!)


How many times do i have to repeat it: US law does not care about this bullshit. PERIOD. NO. NADA. NIENTE. NEIN. it does NOT make a difference. :!: Holy shit, i feel like talking to retards......

Maybe German law does care about your goddamn firing pin hole. US Law is something completely different. For all the US law cares, you can bring as many "bolts" with the firing pin holes drilled and the "face" being made into the country as you like. Because it´s nothing but a junk of metal according to US law. (ITAR notwithstanding, but in general)

It´s a gun part according to german law. It´s a nothing according to US law. Therefore, the ATF/DHS/fill in any threee letter group that there is..... does not care about YOUR definition of "oh, my complete receiver.... it´s not a complete gun according to german law because i didn´t drill the firing pin hole and there´s no bolt face"...

Really`? What the fuck is so hard to understand about the USA having DIFFERENT Laws that say otherwise or do not care about your pesky little holes being drilled or not because they concentrate on a whole different part determining "gun or not".


I really don´t know what´s so hard to understand about it........ You know what, i will go away from this thread now. If it´s so hard to understand that your teeny weeny german definitions of the laws don´t mean a single thing when it comes to bring them to the US, then do whatever you want to do.

It´s not like i did not try to warn you, you make whatever you want out of it and try your luck.

These arguments you´ve written up there.... they won´t do ANYTHING for you in the USA... In Germany, Yes!, in the USA.... NO!
US law is not 100%. Some handguns (Ruger MK series among them) contain the FCG in the unregistered/unserialized portion.
Maybe unregistered (as almost any gun in the US except some in the less free states)

And still, NO dealer in the US will send you a Ruger MK Grip to your doorstep, it will always have to go through a FFL if out of state..... while you can let anyone simply ship an Ruger MK whatever upper right to your doorstep.

It may not be registered (in most of all places, and really, there is no "Register" to register it safe from a few individual states) but it is still the restricted part according to the law that may only be sold through an FFL private to private and with a mandatory NICS check if you buy it through your local FFL. Whereas one of those lightweight tactical uppers for the MK from these guys outta Boise, Idaho, can be recieved as a normal package right to your door, IIRC.

And don´t even start to tell us that you´ve recieed your MK frame differently. It might be possible, just like it´s possible to get an entire AR15 or even M16 in parts in Europe. Doesn´t make it anymore legal you know..... just because it happens.


So while when it comes to semantics (of upper/lower) you might be true, but what about simple praxis out on the street?

Obviously, I only know of the praxis out on the street from hearsay/reading too, of course. I don´t live in the US, as you know. So i might be wrong.

But tell me, isn´t it that way?

And please don´t understand me wrong, i might come off as the internet Polizei. While i really don´t give a shit whatever you have or do. All good in my book. It´s that several states that claim the right to tell their citizens/suspects what they can have or can´t have view it differently. And i´d hate for good people who didn´t mean anybody no harm to be caugth up in the way tooo complicated nets and traps of the law that has been spun around us with ill effects, is all.
Last edited by FrANkNstEin on Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:07 pm

Frank, you have demonstrated your lack of understanding of US firearms law. The grip is nonserialized, it is not a firearm for a Ruger MkII.

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/ ... 02414.aspx
BENEFITS:

No FFL required for purchase
While I'm at it, here's showign that upper recievers for the Mk series are the serialized potion, the firearm per ATF. http://www.rimfiresports.com/merchant.m ... ry_Code=TS
The Pac-Lite Upper Receiver is the serialized portion of the gun and federal law requires that Pac-Lites be shipped directly to a dealer with a Federal Firearms License (FFL).
You should go ahead and tell ATF their mistake, because Volquartsen makes a pretty penny selling those things. The trigger pack and bolt aren't serialized on my 10/22 either. On some MAC 10s, the only serialized portion is the bolt. I can't speak to whether having the firing pin hole drilled makes it less of a firearm than it already wasn't, but I'm willing to bet ATF would agree. The main point I want to get across is that your understanding of US firearms law is incorrect and you have some reading to do before you go on trying to educate anyone any further. The whole upper/lower bit only applies to certain firearms, and of those it does, it varies by firearm.
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