.410 self defense shotgun ?

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Mikeyboy
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.410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by Mikeyboy » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:11 am

So I have young kids and elderly in my group. I was playing with the idea of having a few .410 shotguns available as a handout weapon for self defense.

At say 1 to 25 yards, using .410 buck you think it would be enough for SD?

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by ultra magnus » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:44 am

Mikeyboy wrote:So I have young kids and elderly in my group. I was playing with the idea of having a few .410 shotguns available as a handout weapon for self defense.

At say 1 to 25 yards, using .410 buck you think it would be enough for SD?

I would be inclined to favor a semi auto 22 for this I think.

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by DaveTrader » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:43 pm

I started shooting trap at age 12 with a 12ga Rem 870 with a 24-28in barrel. Now at 32, I'm 5'7" 140, as a college freshman I was 5'7" 110, so I must have been all of 5'0 and 75 pounds at 12. 12ga was no problem for me with 1 and 1/8oz of lead going 1200fps. I would say give them a 12ga with low recoil loads. I know I am glad I started trap with a 12 and not 410. I can't imagine shooting clays as a kid with that little 410 shell.

All the recoil and weight disappears when you see those birds shattering.

I guess it depends on how little the kids are and how old the seniors are. If you insist on a shotgun, I would say 12ga. 410 does not seem very effective to me. If 12ga is too much, then I would say 223 rifle. If they are not able to handle 223, maybe they are too young or old to be in a gun fight.

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by Illini Warrior » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:04 pm

to answer your question ... no .... h@ll no .... a decent load for self defense is 00Buck .... you get 9 pellets in a 12 gauge shell vs 2 pellets in a 410 .... shell prices is thru the roof for anything other than trap loads .... just not worth it

it's also an age & size consideration .... you can't really begin to think about arming anyone under 12 or so .... at that age a boy should be able to handle a 12 gauge .... get a youth model and also pick up slip on butt adjusters ....
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by AS556 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:47 pm

Another vote for semi auto .22.

If you want .410 use slugs, not buck.

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by Dooms » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:53 pm

.410 slugs out of an ~18" barrel shotgun are definitely an adequate self-defense load. They launch a ~109gr projectile at about 1700ft-sec. That's similar to what some 110gr .357 magnum loads do. The downside then becomes capacity, typically only 5+1 capacity. Again, oddly similar to, a typical .357 magnum revolver.

With that said........Personally, I'd probably want something with a bit more capacity. A 16" .357 magnum or .45 colt lever action used to be a great choice, offering more punch and much greater capacity than the previously mentioned .410. However, with the way things are right now, good luck finding either (at least at a reasonable price).

If I'm stuck buying a 5+1 shotgun, then I would go with at least a 20ga. Much better than .410 and most people can easily handle a 20ga. Typical 2 3/4" buckshot loads for the 20ga are #3 buckshot, which is perfectly adequate for home defense where the distances are relatively short. For longer distances, 20ga rifled slugs are available that launch a 3/4 ounce (320+ grain) hunk of lead at 1500+ feet per second. That's three times the weight at nearly the same muzzle velocity of the .410 bore.

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by Sins » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:03 pm

Mikeyboy wrote:So I have young kids and elderly in my group. I was playing with the idea of having a few .410 shotguns available as a handout weapon for self defense.

At say 1 to 25 yards, using .410 buck you think it would be enough for SD?
When you said "handout weapon" I immediately began to think of bad scenarios. I can't think of one where you could pass out weapons like you weren't prepared to go to battle. Surely not anything like an everyday home invasion.
If your thoughts of the scenario where you would require passing out weapons are anything like mine. .... I don't think .410 or semi .22 would do the trick

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by Sworbeyegib » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:30 pm

There are worse self defense weapons to be had than a .410 shotgun, but there are also much better for what you are looking for.

I think a 9mm PCC, such as a sub2000 or the hi point would give be much better suited. Of course you have to decide that if these are people that should be handling a firearm to begin with. IMO, if you are handing a firearm over for self defense, the person using said gun should not just have a basic knoledge of use, they should have decent trigger time and the mentality that if need be, they could use it against someone. My suggestion is take them out shooting with a bunch of guns, and see what they can or cant handle. You might be surprised.

If you were to use .410, I would suggest slugs instead of buckshot. Actually I would suggest finding low recoil 20 or 12 gauge buckshot to be the best bet. In fact I think there was a thread on here with someone who made their own low recoil loads.
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by greenbeetle » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:34 pm

2 1/2" .410 000 buckshot 5 pellets





3" .410 buckshot 5 pellets


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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by MacAttack » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:15 am

Unless you already have the .410 do not waste your cash on one.

Just get a 20gauge for the same price. Its more than twice the weapon and the kick can be reduced a lot by choosing the correct load and adding a pad.

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by Finch » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:24 am

12 gauge with reduced recoil loads

if it must be a shotgun

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by TravisM.1 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:31 am

Why not a 20g?
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by aus.templar » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:32 am

.223 don't kick too much and is a lot better than .410

If you don't have the finances to shell out on many ARs then pump 12gauges with reduced recoil loads are a heap better than .410... Other than that I'll echo the .22 semi auto rifle route.

For your purpose I suggest .223 ARs if the users have the option for regular training. 12gauge (reduced recoil buck) pumps if there is minimal time for training, then .22 semi's then a few other things before .410
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by Finch » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:33 am

aus.templar wrote:.223 don't kick too much and is a lot better than .410

If you don't have the finances to shell out on many ARs then pump 12gauges with reduced recoil loads are a heap better than .410... Other than that I'll echo the .22 semi auto rifle route.

For your purpose I suggest .223 ARs if the users have the option for regular training. 12gauge (reduced recoil buck) pumps if there is minimal time for training, then .22 semi's then a few other things before .410
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by aus.templar » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:37 am

Finch wrote: i like the cut of your jib
Thank you, I polish my jib regularly
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by ben1022 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 am

410 makes a fine SD gun. couple it with a Taurus judge and not only will you have a long gun but a shot as well that fire the same ammo. 410 ammo is cheap= buy more, lite =more you can carry, and versitile = more uses (ie hunting, SD, practice, ect) With ammo such as 00 buck, PDX, Hornady (NEW TO THE MARKET AND AWESOME), birdshot, dragons breath, flechett (spelled it wrong i know), bolo, ect. You'll be set for a while.
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by ben1022 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 am

410 makes a fine SD gun. couple it with a Taurus judge and not only will you have a long gun but a shot as well that fire the same ammo. 410 ammo is cheap= buy more, lite =more you can carry, and versitile = more uses (ie hunting, SD, practice, ect) With ammo such as 00 buck, PDX, Hornady (NEW TO THE MARKET AND AWESOME), birdshot, dragons breath, flechett (spelled it wrong i know), bolo, ect. You'll be set for a while.
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by aus.templar » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:29 am

ben1022 wrote:410 makes a fine SD gun. couple it with a Taurus judge and not only will you have a long gun but a shot as well that fire the same ammo. 410 ammo is cheap= buy more, lite =more you can carry, and versitile = more uses (ie hunting, SD, practice, ect) With ammo such as 00 buck, PDX, Hornady (NEW TO THE MARKET AND AWESOME), birdshot, dragons breath, flechett (spelled it wrong i know), bolo, ect. You'll be set for a while.

Above I recommended .223

You state that .410 is cheap, light and versatile (hunting, SD, practice)

.223 is cheaper than .410
.223 is lighter than .410
.223 can be used to hunt (I've used on rabbits, dogs, foxes and have been told of blokes in USA using it to take game up to the size of deer however that is illegal in my AO), it's good for SD being the main battle-calibre of everything from Police Tactical-Response units up to military special forces and everything and everyone in between, and practice well .223 is cheap enough (if you can find it at the moment haha) however you can get .22LR drop in BCG and mags that function in AR systems. So that's even cheaper to practice with.
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by White Bear » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:35 am

Finch wrote:
A small women or a child could operate and handle an AR-15 better any day of the week.
That's what I was going to say. Although I do believe the official weapon of child soldiers is the AK.
I'm a normal guy with nothing to hide.

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by ben1022 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:51 am

Above I recommended .223

You state that .410 is cheap, light and versatile (hunting, SD, practice)

.223 is cheaper than .410
.223 is lighter than .410
.223 can be used to hunt (I've used on rabbits, dogs, foxes and have been told of blokes in USA using it to take game up to the size of deer however that is illegal in my AO), it's good for SD being the main battle-calibre of everything from Police Tactical-Response units up to military special forces and everything and everyone in between, and practice well .223 is cheap enough (if you can find it at the moment haha) however you can get .22LR drop in BCG and mags that function in AR systems. So that's even cheaper to practice with.
I was refering to other shotgun loads, other than 410. Also comparing 223 and 410 is like comparing apples to coconuts. Not sure where the original poster is located, but here in the USA because of the current "gun ban" scare, 223 is nearly impossible to get, and if you can find it, it costs nearly $50 U.S. for 50 rounds. heck 22lr is $40 for a box of 325 (federal). yeah 223 is more managible for kids, but, lets face it, moving targets (rabbits, birds, ect) are dam hard to hit with a 223. plus as of right now, 410 is plentiful in the USA and regardless of ban scares, 410 doesnt have any real chances of being banned here in the USA so prices will continues to be cheap.
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by TDW586 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:00 am

Oh, good, a well thought out, reasonable recommendation of the Taurus Judge paired with a .410 shotgun as an all purpose firearm set. That's not silly and pointless at all, great advice.

Thanks for taking the time to post that, and for typing your posts out so neatly and carefully.

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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by ImBatman223 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:38 am

DaveTrader wrote:I know I am glad I started trap with a 12 and not 410. I can't imagine shooting clays as a kid with that little 410 shell.
I started shooting trap with a single shot .410, it really makes you appreciate the 20 and 12 gauge a hell of a lot!

.410 is more expensive than 20 gauge, plus 20 gauge is still good for taking game and a youth action pump is a wicked shotgun. nice and light meaning they can actually carry it around, plus you're not sacrificing too much "stopping power".
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by Finch » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:10 am

White Bear wrote:
Finch wrote:
A small women or a child could operate and handle an AR-15 better any day of the week.
That's what I was going to say. Although I do believe the official weapon of child soldiers is the AK.
cause they are cheap :)




A taurus judge is under no circumstances a good self defense weapon. Dragons breath and other novelty rounds are just that novelties
ok well unless you are worried about snakes


I'm not going to get into some long drawn out nonsense about the judge but anyone that thinks its great read this

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: .410 self defense shotgun ?

Post by DaveTrader » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:50 am

...but here in the USA because of the current "gun ban" scare, 223 is nearly impossible to get, and if you can find it, it costs nearly $50 U.S. for 50 rounds. heck 22lr is $40 for a box of 325 (federal). yeah 223 is more managible for kids, but, lets face it, moving targets (rabbits, birds, ect) are dam hard to hit with a 223. plus as of right now, 410 is plentiful in the USA and regardless of ban scares, 410 doesnt have any real chances of being banned here in the USA so prices will continues to be cheap.
I wouldn't make serious firearms decisions based on temporary market panics, especially if that means choosing 410 when I want 223. If it means having to buy Norinco instead of Polytech or Daniels Defense instead of Noveske, that might be a different story.

Buying what is cheap or in stock when you want something else is always more expensive in the long run.

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