80% lower receiver??

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80% lower receiver??

Post by Nightwing » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:11 pm

So with all the pain in the ass sell splurge going on, I got to thinking how hard would an 80% receiver really be? I have easy access to a press ( located at my fathers house) I realize I need to purchase a kit. Was looking around and 80% receivers were in stock every where I looked. Cost would be about $200.00 + time. I can get one that is anodized so I don't have to worry about rattle can afterwards. I was curious if anyone has any experience in this area and can provide some expertise. Is is worth it all said and done ( the time it takes and the fact that you have a non serialized lower)?
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by Browning 35 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:57 pm

If you have access to a mill and a jig it seems relatively straight forward. It's the initial cost of those things that's always killed it for me.

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=484783

The results seems to depend on you. If you got an A+ in shop, you're familiar with these type of tools and have some attention to detail you'll do fine.

Up until now it's been easier and cheaper to just buy a lower and that's what I've always done. Never done this. With the current craziness I can see groups of friends/family getting together to diffuse some of the cost of the tools and jig and doing these as garage projects.
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by cauldron » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:51 pm

There are places that sell the %80 receiver and for an extra amount, will have a 'build party'. You show up, learn how to use the CNC, pay for the instructions, and use the CNC yourself. The company I found in California does 1911 and AR frames.

Ten people buying the needed tools would cut the price down, and then the tools make the rounds till all the guns are built.

I'd love to make an AK or an AR from scratch, just because...

and by 'scratch' I mean an %80 receiver and a CNC!

As far as I know... You can build as many as you like, as long as YOU build them without help, and you don't intend to ever sell it, but I'm not a lawyer...
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by Wildeman_13 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:06 pm

To add to what caludron said, right now there is no question that "build it yourself" refers to you even if all you do is push the button to start the CNC process. However, there is some grey area in the mass produced shops that have you walk in, lift the hood, place your pre-purchased 80% blank into the CNC machine, close the hood, and press a button. There are smaller groups that hold build parties where someone uses a drill press and template or a smaller hand controlled CNC machine to finish the rest of the 20%. There is no question that you are the one making the final build here. Again, the mass run CNC shops are legal right now. But I see them coming into question of how much are you really building if all you do is mount it and push a button on a computer controlled CNC cutter head.

And you CAN sell it, you just have to engrave a serial number into it and sell it through whatever is normally legal in your state. There might be additional paperwork that needs to be done as well so do some google'ing on that if/when the time comes.
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by Nightwing » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:03 pm

I was thinking about the form and a drill press I don't have access to a CNC machine.
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by zombieresponder » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:19 pm

Wildeman_13 wrote:To add to what caludron said, right now there is no question that "build it yourself" refers to you even if all you do is push the button to start the CNC process. However, there is some grey area in the mass produced shops that have you walk in, lift the hood, place your pre-purchased 80% blank into the CNC machine, close the hood, and press a button. There are smaller groups that hold build parties where someone uses a drill press and template or a smaller hand controlled CNC machine to finish the rest of the 20%. There is no question that you are the one making the final build here. Again, the mass run CNC shops are legal right now. But I see them coming into question of how much are you really building if all you do is mount it and push a button on a computer controlled CNC cutter head.

And you CAN sell it, you just have to engrave a serial number into it and sell it through whatever is normally legal in your state. There might be additional paperwork that needs to be done as well so do some google'ing on that if/when the time comes.
No, you can't sell it. As an individual, you do not have a manufacturer's FFL, and there is no process by which you are able to record and report the required information to ATF. If the receiver was purchased as 100% complete, then you are not the manufacturer and this would not apply.
Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?
With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]
From http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/general ... ufacturing

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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by Wildeman_13 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:02 pm

zombieresponder wrote:No, you can't sell it. As an individual, you do not have a manufacturer's FFL, and there is no process by which you are able to record and report the required information to ATF. If the receiver was purchased as 100% complete, then you are not the manufacturer and this would not apply.
Yes... you can.

Code: Select all

Letter from the US Department of Justice, Nov 9, 2004
A non-licensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need NOT be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR 478.92 (formerly 178.92)
From http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE- ... -11-09.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Like I said... if you manufacture the firearm yourself and keep it, no serial number needed. You CANNOT make a firearm with the intent to sell it without a manufactures FFL license. But if you decide to give it to your kids, or sell it to your brother, then it MUST be engraved with the serial number and information as required by the above quoted LAW for FFL manufacturers. Then it can be transferred as legally required as per your State/Local laws.
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by Strunk-tactical » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:45 pm

Try Stunk-tactical [dot] com

Raw and anodized available.
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by Paladin1 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:28 pm

Wildeman_13 wrote:
zombieresponder wrote:No, you can't sell it. As an individual, you do not have a manufacturer's FFL, and there is no process by which you are able to record and report the required information to ATF. If the receiver was purchased as 100% complete, then you are not the manufacturer and this would not apply.
Yes... you can.

Code: Select all

Letter from the US Department of Justice, Nov 9, 2004
A non-licensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need NOT be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR 478.92 (formerly 178.92)
From http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE- ... -11-09.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Like I said... if you manufacture the firearm yourself and keep it, no serial number needed. You CANNOT make a firearm with the intent to sell it without a manufactures FFL license. But if you decide to give it to your kids, or sell it to your brother, then it MUST be engraved with the serial number and information as required by the above quoted LAW for FFL manufacturers. Then it can be transferred as legally required as per your State/Local laws.
Mmm, based on my research into this, this is not quite true.

You are right on the money right up to the point of "transferring" it. No matter how, or to whom, if you make a firearm and sell, trade, barter, or in any other manner "transfer" the weapon to someone else, you are a manufacture and must have a license. (along with a serial number)

You could make thousands of guns for yourself, but not for anyone else. Your quote from a 2004 letter appears to be addressing the serial number issue.

From the current ATF website:

May I lawfully make a firearm for my own personal use, provided it is not being made for
resale?

Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer’s license under the GCA
provided they are not for sale or distribution and the maker is not prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non
sporting semiautomatic
rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as set forth in regulations in 27 C.F.R. 478.39. In
addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. An
application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing
that the firearm is being made for the official use of a Federal, State, or local government agency (18
U.S.C.
§ 922(o),(r); 26 U.S.C. § 5822; 27 C.F.R. §§ 478.39, 479.62, and 479.105)
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by Stercutus » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:37 pm

There are places that sell the %80 receiver and for an extra amount, will have a 'build party'. You show up, learn how to use the CNC, pay for the instructions, and use the CNC yourself.
These are back in the maybe not so legal category. The ATF is saying that if you don't do all the work yourself (including set up and programing the machinery) then a third party is helping you make it.
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by Wildeman_13 » Thu May 02, 2013 11:58 am

Paladin1 wrote:Mmm, based on my research into this, this is not quite true.

You are right on the money right up to the point of "transferring" it. No matter how, or to whom, if you make a firearm and sell, trade, barter, or in any other manner "transfer" the weapon to someone else, you are a manufacture and must have a license. (along with a serial number)

You could make thousands of guns for yourself, but not for anyone else. Your quote from a 2004 letter appears to be addressing the serial number issue.

From the current ATF website:

May I lawfully make a firearm for my own personal use, provided it is not being made for
resale?

Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer’s license under the GCA
provided they are not for sale or distribution and the maker is not prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non
sporting semiautomatic
rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as set forth in regulations in 27 C.F.R. 478.39. In
addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. An
application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing
that the firearm is being made for the official use of a Federal, State, or local government agency (18
U.S.C.
§ 922(o),(r); 26 U.S.C. § 5822; 27 C.F.R. §§ 478.39, 479.62, and 479.105)
This is a grey area that is addressed by the letter I referred to in the pdf link. (From http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... -11-09.pdf)
You are not milling the 80% lower for resale. You are milling it into a firearm for YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE. Totally legal and NOT requiring a serial number in any fashion. If we agree on that part, then this is where it gets grey.

At what point are you deciding that you no longer want that AR lower and wish to sell or transfer it? A week? A month? A Year? 10 years?
Doesn't matter. Your ORIGINAL intent was to make a firearm for YOUR personal use. This is what is being referred to in the PDF. Once you decide that you no longer wish to own the firearm, you must then follow specific procedures to uniquely mark/identify it for "sale" or transfer. NOW is when you must engrave a serial number onto the lower. Then you can transfer it as per your states laws.

People are doing it in CA all the time. CADOJ knows about it and their only concern so far has been to ensure that the person doing the milling into a firearm is the same person who will own the firearm after completion. As long as they are one and the same, CADOJ doesn't care that it doesn't have a serial number. Go to sell/transfer it? Now they care. Mark it, sell/transfer it, it is now "entered" into the DOJ DROS system.
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by MacWa77ace » Thu May 02, 2013 2:20 pm

Paladin1 wrote:
From the current ATF website:

May I lawfully make a firearm for my own personal use, provided it is not being made for
resale?

Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer’s license under the GCA
provided they are not for sale or distribution and the maker is not prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic
rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as set forth in regulations in 27 C.F.R. 478.39. In
addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. An
application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing
that the firearm is being made for the official use of a Federal, State, or local government agency (18
U.S.C.
§ 922(o),(r); 26 U.S.C. § 5822; 27 C.F.R. §§ 478.39, 479.62, and 479.105)
This doesn't really limit what the OP is trying to accomplish.

1) Technically he IS making a semi automatic sporting rifle. But this doesn't even matter because...
2) He will not be assembling it from more than 10 IMPORTED PARTS
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Re: 80% lower receiver??

Post by the_alias » Thu May 02, 2013 2:27 pm

Stunk-tactical wrote:Try Stunk-tactical.com

Raw and anodized available.
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