MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30 (Now with Pictures of M1 Garand)

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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:47 pm

Turtlewolf wrote: Nice try, those were generaly aimed at the Mini 30 vs MAK 90 and were relevent in thier full context.
Taking them out of context for your own agenda dosen't change what the original text said, if you don't understand it that is your own personal issue-not mine.
My bad, I didn't realize they were "out of context"......Since all I did was "copy & paste". :ooh:
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by 400 Grains » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:12 pm

Turtlewolf wrote:I don't hate the Garand, it just amazes me that the USA did so well with a firearm based on out dated European technology that had been largely abandoned pre WW1. Even the Garand trigger pack is identical to a French design from about 1917, but that is probably the best part of the firearm from an engineering stand point. Considering the bass akwards technology the average DI was saddled with in WW2 I can only imagine what they could have done with the state of the art designs from Germany! In all honesty the same trigger pack is in the MAK, maybe grab the TAPCO trigger upgrade? Could increase your shooting as most Russian triggers I've used just plain out suck donkey dooey, but do always work!
Das Sheep wrote: Garands were outdated in WWII? Um, not really sure I follow that. The Garand was a far better rifle for the battle fields of WWII then the Kar98, Lee, or Mosin. Sure it was not as accurate as them, but the ability to fire 8 bullets in about the time any of those could fire 1 was a pretty powerful advantage.

Also what state of the art designs in Germany? Germany had amazing officers, excellent training and good missiles that were super neat and had a very limited impact on the war. America had way better planes and England had better tanks at the start of the war, with the Soviets having far and above better tanks throughout the entire war. Germany had a LOT more tanks then Poland or France, and Stalin killed most his officers, which gutted his Logistics capability and command and control, otherwise the war on the eastern front would have been reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally short because the Soviets would have wrecked the Nazi's.

The Garand is not many things, but it was easily the best battle rifle in WWII. Easily.


Anyway: I think the mini-30 is a nice gun. AK's are pretty unbeatable in terms of reliability though.

Turtlewolf wrote:Das Sheep, do your own research and stop taking other fan bois word for fact.
This thread is not for Garand debate.
Uhhh... say what?

Das Sheep merely corrected your ignorant statements about the Garand, and it's place in WWII. You got it exactly reversed.

The Garand was the best and most modern battle rifle in general issue during the war. Most other combatants were using bolt action rifles of WWI or earlier vintage.

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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:28 pm

Shoe Daddy wrote:Anyone have ANY suggestions as to what I can do or try to make this thing at least hit paper?
As has been mentioned, start at 25m, then hit the 50m line if it would help, then go to 100m.

Be sure you stick with the same ammo through all of this, and try to stay with the same lot number. Milsurp ammo varies greatly, and most of it is rated around 4moa by the manufacturers. Run 4moa ammo in a 4moa rifle, and I think that puts you around 8moa(others will correct me if I'm wrong :lol: ), so inside a 9" paper plate at 100m. Good enough for defense, and certainly no worse than a Mini-30.

What kind of sight adjustment tool do you have? I've heard the c-clamp tools are lousy, but I have one like this(link) that's awesome.
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If you still have trouble, try it with good ammo, or take it to an Appleseed Shoot. You'll get some good marksmanship training, and chances are good that someone there can unfuck whatever the issue is. Let us know how this goes for you.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Shoe Daddy » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:55 pm

Im gonna give it a run on the bench this weekend. I have also decided to trade it for a AR, Saiga 12 or 20, M1 Garand, or a Romanian PSL. Been looking real hard at a PSL since i already have a shit load of x54R. IF and I mean IF, I can get the damn thing to shoot straight, I might keep it. The AK has never really got me all hot and bothered to begin with and now seems to be a good time to look for a replacement for my bug out rifle. I'll try and get a range report in over the weekend. Also I blame all grammar errors and spelling on my phone.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Das Sheep » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:02 pm

Turtlewolf wrote:Das Sheep, do your own research and stop taking other fan bois word for fact.
This thread is not for Garand debate.

OT: the stock kit the OP has looks pretty darn good on his MAK90.
I love world war II history and have probably read better then 50 books on the subject and likely hundreds of articles, documentaries and history channel shit. Heck I even got into painting little toy models of my favorite tanks and painting miniatures for WWII miniature games like Bolt Action and Flames of War, even if I don't actually play those games because I find the people who do to be insufferable.

Anyway.

Saying that a bolt action rifle with 5 or so rounds invented in the last decade of the 19th century or first decade of the twentieth century is more advanced then a semi-automatic 8 round rifle which fires a comparable round makes me really question not only your knowledge of history but also your basic understanding of combat or guns period. Of course this is coming from someone who thought Germany had the best tech of world war II, so I guess maybe you should like, read a book on history, and not just get your knowledge of the period from Company of Hero's and Saving Private Ryan.

The Mini-30 and the AK are both based on tried and true guns. Both are great weapons. I think an AK wins for the simple reason that they are very easy to break down and clean and magazines are pretty darn common. Both guns are pretty reliable. For your AK, the sight might need to be adjusted as someone pointed out. Getting the gun to put holes in the center of the paper at close range and using the linked tool to adjust your sites until they are poking holes in the middle of the paper is great advice. Alternatively sell your current AK at the vastly inflated current market price (yah free market) and when prices drop again, just buy a Mini-30 and an AK or two with the money you made off your current rifle.

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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Shoe Daddy » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:14 pm

The M1 Garand had plenty of influence since the SVT-40 popped up shortly after the Garand made an appearance and was soon followed by the G43.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Browning 35 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:27 pm

Das Sheep wrote:Also what state of the art designs in Germany? Germany had amazing officers, excellent training and good missiles that were super neat and had a very limited impact on the war. America had way better planes and England had better tanks at the start of the war, with the Soviets having far and above better tanks throughout the entire war. Germany had a LOT more tanks then Poland or France, and Stalin killed most his officers, which gutted his Logistics capability and command and control, otherwise the war on the eastern front would have been reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally short because the Soviets would have wrecked the Nazi's.
He might be referring to this...
  • The Blitzkrieg combined armored and aircraft tactics which allowed German armor to gain ground very rapidly and keep the enemy off balance. Before this it was trench warfare all the way.
  • Their infantry training which Col. Grossman (the author of 'On Killing' and 'On Combat') has estimated led to firing rates of 50% for all German troops compared to 10-15% for everyone else.
  • The Gewehr 43 semi-automatic rifle
  • The Sturmgewehr 44, the first true assault rifle (some might argue that the M1 Carbine beat it out by a year).
  • The MG34 which was the first general purpose machinegun.
  • The MG42 general purpose machinegun, one of the best ever and light years ahead of what everyone else was using.
  • The Junkers Ju 87 dive-bomber
  • Their tanks were better then all the other Allies except for the Soviet T-34.
  • The Germans developed the first jet, the Messerschmitt Me 262.
  • The V-1 and V-2 rockets which were so ahead of their time that we used them as part of Americas and the Soviet space programs in the late 50's and early 60's.
  • The Zielgerät ZG-1229 Vampir infrared gun sight, giving the German Military night vision years before most Americans had ever dreamed of such a thing.
  • In terms of the Atom Bomb the German almost beat us with their Uranverein, or Uranium Club. The Uranium Club had just as strong a start as the Manhattan Project.
The Germans got beat by by Russian blood and manpower, British and American bombing and Lend-Lease, not through any lack of technology.

At any rate the AK-47 was only inspired by the StG-44 in concept and the MAK-90 is a Chinese copy of that and the Mini-14 isn't the Garand, so rather than re-fight WWII we could just stick to the topic.

Btw...I ordered one of those AK sight tools as they're supposed to be awesome, haven't gotten it yet.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by 400 Grains » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:52 pm

Shoe Daddy wrote:The M1 Garand had plenty of influence since the SVT-40 popped up shortly after the Garand made an appearance and was soon followed by the G43.
The Russians had fielded more than a million SVT's before the G43 came about in response to it. And of course the StG44 came around far too late.

Most German soldiers carried a state of the art rifle into WWI. Not into WWII.

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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Das Sheep » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:15 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
Das Sheep wrote:Also what state of the art designs in Germany? Germany had amazing officers, excellent training and good missiles that were super neat and had a very limited impact on the war. America had way better planes and England had better tanks at the start of the war, with the Soviets having far and above better tanks throughout the entire war. Germany had a LOT more tanks then Poland or France, and Stalin killed most his officers, which gutted his Logistics capability and command and control, otherwise the war on the eastern front would have been reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally short because the Soviets would have wrecked the Nazi's.
He might be referring to this...
  • The Blitzkrieg combined armored and aircraft tactics which allowed German armor to gain ground very rapidly and keep the enemy off balance. Before this it was trench warfare all the way. - Yes, Germany had the best, in my opinion, training and an excellent group of officers, overall.
  • Their infantry training which Col. Grossman (the author of 'On Killing' and 'On Combat') has estimated led to firing rates of 50% for all German troops compared to 10-15% for everyone else. - Yep. Germans had great tactics and training. Mentioned this in my first post on this.
  • The Gewehr 43 semi-automatic rifle - Was a rip off of the SVT-40 and SVT-38 which they encountered while fighting the Soviets, who had already realized that the Mosin badly needed to be replaced, and that semi-automatic rifles (like the Garand!) were the future of warfare. It was also produced in pretty limited quantities, and by the time it saw service the cream of the German crop of soldiers were fertilizing Russian fields.
  • The Sturmgewehr 44, the first true assault rifle (some might argue that the M1 Carbine beat it out by a year). - A revolutionary weapon that was 4 years late to the fight.
  • The MG34 which was the first general purpose machinegun. - Let me introduce to John Browning. He invented some guns a few decades prior to the MG34, and some of those machineguns are still in use today, abit with some updates. The MG34 was a very nice gun though.
  • The MG42 general purpose machinegun, one of the best ever and light years ahead of what everyone else was using. - Except the Americans and British, who had the Ma Duce, and other excellent inventions by JMB. Or the Maxim which the Ruskies had. Many NATO nations and UN nations, us included, still use the Ma Duce. And the 1911. And the browning Hi power. Oh JMB you were so freaking smart.
  • The Junkers Ju 87 dive-bomber - Was a great plane, but not super better then many other planes of the time. Americans had better CAS.
  • Their tanks were better then all the other Allies except for the Soviet T-34.- Name one German tank that in 1941 could, 10 against 1 with 100 free shots at 30 meters before the fight started defeat a KV-1 or KV-2 tank. Then Name one German tank that could, in 1941, survive a single shot from a KV-1 or KV-2 (or T-34) tank within 1000 meters. Hint: None of them. The German statagy for beating KV series tanks, until they got the Tiger (which was then promptly outclassed by the IS series tanks and various ISU/SU series tank hunters), was to hope they ran out of gas and ammo before the Germans ran out of tanks. Nearly all Russian tank losses in 1941 were from the tanks running out of fuel and/or ammo and being abandoned by their crews or them suffering a simple mechanical failure and having no parts to replace the broken stuff with because Stalin was an idiot and killed all his officers. The British Matilda II tank was also pretty much better then the Panzers, but had a crappy gun. Later American and British tanks had stabalizers so they could scoot and shoot at the same time.
  • The Germans developed the first jet, the Messerschmitt Me 262. - And Sega developed a super cool internet connectable game counsel called the Dreamcast. Like the German Jets, it was way ahead of its time and other tech of the period did not support it. The Me 262 had big engine problems, and most were grounded after a few missions because of a lack of repair parts. A revolutionary invention that did not ultimately play a big role in the war.
  • The V-1 and V-2 rockets which were so ahead of their time that we used them as part of Americas and the Soviet space programs in the late 50's and early 60's. - Super neat rockets. I agree that they were pretty awesome. The Soviets also had awesome rockets, though nothing like the V-2.
  • The Zielgerät ZG-1229 Vampir infrared gun sight, giving the German Military night vision years before most Americans had ever dreamed of such a thing. - Yep that was pretty nifty. America had WAY better portable comms. Everyone had some neat ahead of the times stuff.
  • In terms of the Atom Bomb the German almost beat us with their Uranverein, or Uranium Club. The Uranium Club had just as strong a start as the Manhattan Project. - If atomic bomb research was a game of horse shoes and almost counted then that woulda been super neat. As it is, Germany abandoned their project and we succeeded.[/list]

    The Germans got beat by by Russian blood and manpower, British and American bombing and Lend-Lease, not through any lack of technology. - I would counter with the Russians Got beat by Stalin being an idiot since in WWII they had better tech then the Germans in almost every area, from rifles to tanks to arty to mortars to so much else. But when all your officers are dead and your leader is pretty horrible at making logistics happen, what can you do. Also when Hitler invaded the Russian army was going through a modernization process, so many of them did not have ammo or training or parts for their new weapons (at least not in equanimity) and the old stuff was poorly maintained because they were expecting new arty, new tanks and new rifles. Had Stalin not killed something like 80,000 of his officers because of his own paranoia, including almost his entire staff corps, and had he not gutted his logistics and held back the modernization of his armies with stupid programs then Operation Barbarossa might have gone very differently.

    At any rate the AK-47 was only inspired by the StG-44 in concept and the MAK-90 is a Chinese copy of that and the Mini-14 isn't the Garand, so rather than re-fight WWII we could just stick to the topic.

    Btw...I ordered one of those AK sight tools as they're supposed to be awesome, haven't gotten it yet.

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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Czechnology » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:48 pm

So now that we've all shown that we've read a Time-Life series on WWII, can we shut up about the Garand, Tokarev, and Walther designed rifles of WWII?
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Turtlewolf » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:53 pm

Shoe Daddy wrote:Im gonna give it a run on the bench this weekend. I have also decided to trade it for a AR, Saiga 12 or 20, M1 Garand, or a Romanian PSL. Been looking real hard at a PSL since i already have a shit load of x54R. IF and I mean IF, I can get the damn thing to shoot straight, I might keep it. The AK has never really got me all hot and bothered to begin with and now seems to be a good time to look for a replacement for my bug out rifle. I'll try and get a range report in over the weekend. Also I blame all grammar errors and spelling on my phone.
The M1 Garand is the worst of the list you have thier, a firearm designed to require an en bloc clip was out dated prior to WW1 and the technology was largely abandoned except for the USA who ate it like flys on crap pan cakes. It is almost impossible to single load this firearm, it is dependant on specific ammunition (M2 ball) or it can seriously malfunction.
.30-06 is a good round but pricey, I'ld say if you want a bug out rifle avoid the Saigas as well, I love my shotguns but damn is the ammuntion expensive and heavy.
The PSL is good if you can get one, but remember you will at some point be humping this stuff.
Get an AR15 if you must, that is pick of the litter you listed.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by We'reWolf » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:21 pm

On topic- if the mak doesn't shoot right, id try it without thinking about it. I would want a gun that can be accurate. The Rugar is a good rifle and avoids the "evil" gun look, although if you want it to be a tacticool rifle you can do that too.
i gotta say this mini is pretty bad assImage
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by We'reWolf » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:29 pm

Shoe Daddy wrote:Im gonna give it a run on the bench this weekend. I have also decided to trade it for a AR, Saiga 12 or 20, M1 Garand, or a Romanian PSL. Been looking real hard at a PSL since i already have a shit load of x54R. IF and I mean IF, I can get the damn thing to shoot straight, I might keep it. The AK has never really got me all hot and bothered to begin with and now seems to be a good time to look for a replacement for my bug out rifle. I'll try and get a range report in over the weekend. Also I blame all grammar errors and spelling on my phone.
out of all those options i would go with the psl personally..
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Kutter_0311 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:51 pm

Shoe Daddy wrote:I have also decided to trade it for a AR, Saiga 12 or 20, M1 Garand, or a Romanian PSL.
Saiga 12 or 20? Really? Not a Saiga in 7.62? That's at least a 1-2moa rifle. Of course, 4moa ammo is still only going to go so far...
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Mr_Wiggles » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:26 pm

My mini 30 does 2 in groups sitting down with irons..........7 inch standing up

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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:34 pm

Mr_Wiggles wrote:My mini 30 does 2 in groups sitting down with irons..........7 inch standing up
What range?
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by 400 Grains » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:39 am

The redesigned Mini's shoot a lot better than the older ones on average. A 2 MOA gun is not out of the question with the newer series.

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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Shoe Daddy » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:48 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Mr_Wiggles wrote:My mini 30 does 2 in groups sitting down with irons..........7 inch standing up
What range?

Seriously, what range. I have seen the newer-14's throw a 5" group off a bench.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by RickOShea » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:51 am

I was shooting my Mini-30 and SKS-M just last weekend.

With SST and the better brass cased stuff, I could put eveything in a 1" square paster at 50 yards. Silver Bear SPs were right around the edges of the paster.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Turtlewolf » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:31 pm

RickOShea wrote:I was shooting my Mini-30 and SKS-M just last weekend.

With SST and the better brass cased stuff, I could put eveything in a 1" square paster at 50 yards. Silver Bear SPs were right around the edges of the paster.
Now this would be an interesting comparison as in stock form they are very similar (except for sights and OAL) rifles, how did the the SKS-M do or was it the same as the Mini 30?
I remember when you could pretty much buy C-cans of SKS-M, SKS-D or just SKS direct from China.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by mac66 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:37 pm

My 2 cents.

I was issued a Mini 14 for duty on occasion back in the early 1980s. I liked it a lot and decided to buy teh Mini 30 when they first came out so I could hunt deer with it. I still have it. It is reliable and accurate enough to have killed quite a few deer out to 150 yards.

I also have MAK 90 bought new back in the day and converted a few years ago. I have four other AKs including a couple Saigas.

If I had a choice to keep only one of the above, I would chose the Mini 30. I like AKs but they don't hold a candle to the MIni 30. I hear the new Tactical 30s are quite nice

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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Shoe Daddy » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:48 pm

I know I'm likely going to start a shit storm, but that's half the fun sometimes. Saturday was the local gun show (madhouse), with WASR 10's for $1200 and DPMS's for $1600, I figured I could cart my MAK around and see if I could wheel and deal. Apparently no one got the memo because the highest offer I got was $1000 flat with all of my ammo, mags, etc. So I decided to hold onto it and just take it home. While shopping on my way to the exit, I ran across a single vendor with a lone M1 Garand. It was love at first sight. I knew the ghosts of my ancestors were indeed smiling upon me and the vendor was very interested in my MAK! After 30 minutes of dealing, I am now the proud owner of a M1 Garand manufactured by International Harvester. On my way home, I thought I would have pangs of guilt for leaving my AK, but I can honestly say "Nope". I lucked into that AK for a steal, and I was able to turn a $450 investment into a $1350 rifle!
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by Turtlewolf » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:06 pm

Shoe Daddy wrote:I know I'm likely going to start a shit storm, but that's half the fun sometimes. Saturday was the local gun show (madhouse), with WASR 10's for $1200 and DPMS's for $1600, I figured I could cart my MAK around and see if I could wheel and deal. Apparently no one got the memo because the highest offer I got was $1000 flat with all of my ammo, mags, etc. So I decided to hold onto it and just take it home. While shopping on my way to the exit, I ran across a single vendor with a lone M1 Garand. It was love at first sight. I knew the ghosts of my ancestors were indeed smiling upon me and the vendor was very interested in my MAK! After 30 minutes of dealing, I am now the proud owner of a M1 Garand manufactured by International Harvester. On my way home, I thought I would have pangs of guilt for leaving my AK, but I can honestly say "Nope". I lucked into that AK for a steal, and I was able to turn a $450 investment into a $1350 rifle!
No shitstorm from me, you got what you evidently wanted in reality.
With any luck that vendor isn't laughing his ass off because you traded him a perfectly good AK for a cobbled together parts gun that spits out charger clips half loaded or worse has a badly repaired op rod that was bent because they were shooting non M2 ammunition.
Of course even if it is a quality sample it wieghs over 9.5lbs empty, requires the lame charger clips, requires either modification or just shoot M2 ball, but it has a good sight system, good cartridge, nice length for a full power battle rifle and it is solid enough firearm that you can crack heads all day with the butt.
Pictures? I do like looking at the rifle that survived one major war and a police action based on technology that was abandoned forty years before it was created.
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Re: MAK-90 vs. Ruger mini 30

Post by crypto » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:38 pm

Seriously dude, take your garand hate out of here and go shit up someone elses thread.
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