A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:40 pm

Why do you insist on acting as if telling you your gun is a poor choice is "looking down on you". Are you your gun? No, it's a fucking tool. If someone tells you Snap-On is better than Craftsman, do you feel like they're insulting you personally if you own Craftsman tools?

If the OP did not want to argue about the merits of a PCC, I suggest he shouldn't have posted a thread called "A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)". Responding to his "case" is not trolling.

If being told you're wrong hurts your feelings, don't express your opinion in a public place. People might disagree with you.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:56 pm

A threadjack?

So, when someone makes claims about several platforms that are untrue, or seem suspect, then makes claims about the tactics, situation, and employment of said platforms, correcting those based on experience is a threadjack? Did ou miss the places where TDW and I both said "yes, this is a alid use of a PCC, but the Sub2k is less than ideal compared to all these other PCC platforms" or did you read the first page and the last page and then post?

Feel free not to post or post at your leisure, but understand that bullshit don't fly, and most claims that seem off will be investigated. As gravedigger4 put it, don't lead people, especially new people astray with misinformation,
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by jamoni » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:07 am

Any of you guys going to lose sleep or not get laid if I lock this trainwreck of a thread down?
I mean, seriously, this boils down to "buy one if you want, don't if you don't." Sheesh.
JoergS wrote:Realistically, I think I can launch a nine pound chain saw at 50 fps from a shoulder mounted rubber powered bazooka...
squinty wrote:I reserve the right to yell "Dookyhole!" - or it's Hebrew equivalent if such a thing exists - whilst dispensing a barrage of palm strikes at my opponent.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by TDW586 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:15 am

jamoni wrote:Any of you guys going to lose sleep or not get laid if I lock this trainwreck of a thread down?
I mean, seriously, this boils down to "buy one if you want, don't if you don't." Sheesh.

Essentially, yes, that is what it boils down to. It's not really hostile or anything, I don't necessarily think you need to lock it, but I don't think anyone will cry over it if you do.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Domino » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:25 am

Doc Torr wrote:So, when someone makes claims about several platforms that are untrue, or seem suspect, then makes claims about the tactics, situation, and employment of said platforms, correcting those based on experience is a threadjack? Did ou miss the places where TDW and I both said "yes, this is a alid use of a PCC, but the Sub2k is less than ideal compared to all these other PCC platforms" or did you read the first page and the last page and then post?
And this happened when exactly???

And as soon as you guys quit jerking each other off, do you mind if we move on cause the thread is going to get locked? :lol:

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by jamoni » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:31 am

It occurs to me that threads like this are just another manifestation of man's innate desire to control others versus his innate desire to not be controlled.
"I WILL REASON LOUDER UNTIL YOU ARE SMART ENOUGH TO THINK JUST LIKE ME!!!!"
"I WILL REFUSE TO AGREE BECAUSE FREEEEEEDDDDDOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!!!!"
Gets old, you know?
JoergS wrote:Realistically, I think I can launch a nine pound chain saw at 50 fps from a shoulder mounted rubber powered bazooka...
squinty wrote:I reserve the right to yell "Dookyhole!" - or it's Hebrew equivalent if such a thing exists - whilst dispensing a barrage of palm strikes at my opponent.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:34 am

TDW586 wrote:
run faster wrote:Just because youre a douche canoe snob, and don't like it doesnt mean it doesnt fill the needs of others

I was going to say "hey, good point man, like I said there are niche uses, people who cannot handle a larger rifle being one". Why do you have to throw insults in and ruin a perfectly good point?
nimdabew wrote:PCC's are great if you want small and quiet. Not very many other reasons why I would want one though. my next long arm "fun gun" is a 9mm AR-15 with a can on it FWIW. 147's out of a 7" barrel and a can = win.
Like I said in the other thread, the Sub2000 does nothing optimally, but it does several things on a budget, and gains its following much like the Mosin.
Off the cuff. It's been said in other threads too. Shit, I said in here and the other that the price of decent Uzi clones keeps me from getting one as a truck gun.

Now, move on to what? And you can leave the "circle jerk" comments out if you're trying to keep the thread alive. I agree there's not much left to be said.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by praharin » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:44 am

Domino wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:So, when someone makes claims about several platforms that are untrue, or seem suspect, then makes claims about the tactics, situation, and employment of said platforms, correcting those based on experience is a threadjack? Did ou miss the places where TDW and I both said "yes, this is a alid use of a PCC, but the Sub2k is less than ideal compared to all these other PCC platforms" or did you read the first page and the last page and then post?
And this happened when exactly???

And as soon as you guys quit jerking each other off, do you mind if we move on cause the thread is going to get locked? :lol:
It happened several times in at least one of the recent posts. I'm not on a computer, so I wont be looking any up. The S2K has 2 things going for it IMO. It's the cheapest and it folds in half. As a function of being cheap, it has shitty sights. You could add your RDS of choice, but then it no longer folds in half. TANSTAAFL. I still think the SU16 would be a better choice, since it shoots a rifle round and can fold with an optic on it. It also folds in half (nearly) and is pretty inexpensive. The PLR16 SBR route tempts me on occasion. But all told an AR SBR isn't a lot more money and can come in 300 :twisted:

When KT perfects the 300BLK SU16 SBR I'll get in line. Until then I'll lust after the Honey Badger :clap:

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by the_klenzer » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:56 am

Now that I'm a Sub2k owner, there is one and only one thing that the Sub2k does better than any other rifle...
Fit in a bag.

If that's not in your top 2 criteria for picking a gun, it shouldn't be in the conversation.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:05 am

You know a flaw I see in these folding guns, as in folding action, is that opens the receiver and allow foreign debris in. Say you take your S2K out and when you unfold it your jacket/pack/dirt gets caught in the action. Now you have to un-bugger that while in someone is getting funky with you.
A gun with a folding stock or a collapsible stock would still be able to operate with the stocks in a less than optimal position.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by 400 Grains » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:18 pm

Here2Learn wrote: "Good morning world! Another glorious day. I have so much going for me in life! I get to go on ZS and tell all of the PCC guys that their opinions are wrong!"
Really, I think it's more like "Oh crap, another sucky day. I have to explain the differences between a PCC and a real rifle to someone else again".....
Here2Learn wrote:Here is an idea, if you don't like PCCs and you only have a negative opinion of them, why don't you not go to the threads where people want to discuss them and go to the AR/AK threads? Kinda like you shouldn't go to a sports car forum to talk about pick up trucks.
A better analogy would be if sports car owners went to the ranch work thread, and suggested their sports cars were a good substitute for a pickup truck on the ranch....

Here2Learn wrote:I've mentioned it before somewhere else but I'll say it again ..If it all comes down to an AK or AR being "IT", Why can I find so many opinions elsewhere that the 10/22 is THE prepper/survival/TEOTWAWKI rifle? I mean it certainly isn't an AR or an AK. Oh, thats right.. all of those people are misguided. They obviously havn't come here to talk to the real experts.
Likely they haven't gone anywhere and talked to anyone....

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by shiddymunkie » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:49 am

the_klenzer wrote:Now that I'm a Sub2k owner, there is one and only one thing that the Sub2k does better than any other rifle...
Fit in a bag.

If that's not in your top 2 criteria for picking a gun, it shouldn't be in the conversation.

I think you're on to something here. A sub2k is a simple way to have a shoulder-fired weapon (and all that entails) that readily fits into a bag, can be deployed quickly, and is inexpensive. The a SRB AR is the better choice in my opinion, but it's usually several times the cost of a sub2k and is a bit more complicated to get the setup right. Additionally, some states like CO don't allow NFA items be concealed, which means you'd have to be careful about how you would transport a SBR as a GHB gun. If you want it "ready to go" while being transported, you may have legal issues depending on what state you are in.

So if you want simple, light, small, quickly-deployable, and inexpensive...why not the Keltec SU-16 carbine instead of the sub2k? They are about the same price, about the same size, and about the same weight...yet shoots a much more capable round. The only advantage a sub2k has over the su-16 is that it's 16" when folded as compared to 25". So, unless your means of transporting this firearm simply can't accommodate the extra 9" of the folded SU-16, the su-16 is the superior choice all around.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Gunmetal Crew Chief » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:36 pm

Not the worst weapon, not the best. I think if you feel its a good tool for you, then use it...if not, then dont. Its all good either way. I have a friend who buys and sells guns almost weekly, its because he has to try them out first before he knows if he likes them. Some stay, some dont. Maybe you should try it out, and see if you like it, if not..it goes bye bye. If so, it stays in the toolbox.
No need to get hurt over gun choices...theres plenty. Why not consider a Savage 42? Theyre nice...not a PCC, but still nice.

Keep in mind when you read, you are reading mostly opinions. Its no big deal...you cant agree with everyone. Get what works for you.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by ashwednesday » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:34 am

I grew up shooting a Savage 24. Bought a Baikal over/under with a 12 gauge barrel and .223 barrel, seemed a useful tool, easy to maintain with a lot of flexibility.I only mention it because the last poster mentioned the Savage 42.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by firerat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:41 am

My EDC is a P-11, which takes S&W 5909 mags. So does a Sub2k (however illusive)

I'd like to get a Sub2k for my GHB. I got a chance to fire one a few weeks back and I really liked it. The main reason: I'm far more accurate with it than my pistol.

Interchangeable mags, small enough to fit in my bag, more accurate (for me) than my pistol, and not to pricey either.

Makes a good case for me.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by tarafore » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:42 am

Regular Guy wrote:OKay, I didn't want to poop up other PCC threads but I'll interject my opinion here.
I believe the 300 Black Out has destroyed the need for a PCC. Because with the right loads, the 300BO acts just like a pistol caliber carbine. The ones that use Glock mags cost as much as an AR in 300BO.
Here are, in my view, the advantages of the 300 over a 9mm. It's built on the proven AR platform, most PCC are proprietary designs. It use the proven and affordable AR mags. With a simple switch of ammo it will perform like a rifle, no PCC can do this. The 300BO with subsonic ammo is very light recoiling.
Yes, the 300BO is about 2 lbs heavier on average but the trade off in reliability and durability is worth it, IMO. Yes, 9mm ammo for blasting is cheaper but for most premium hollow points it's a dollar a round. Sub sonic 300 is $0.71 a rd. More or less the same in price but a 300 subsonic performs better further.

Welp, there's my arguement against them. While I like them, I personally believe there are better designs. If you like them cool. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of theirs.
I have a question. And I'm not really trying to be a smartaleck. But the last time I bought a Sub2k, I paid $400 out the door (9mm, Glock mags). Can you get .300 BO AR's for that? If so, where? The ones I've seen have been twice that or more.

I personally think that PCC's have very limited practical purposes:

1) Useful for people who are too small/young/old/etc. to handle a full-sized gun (or who have physical disabilities that prevent them - the Sub2K is about twice as light & handy as any AR I've owned).

2) Relatively cheap guns to keep around as "handouts" to friends who may show up in an emergency. This is pretty unlikely, all around, and if your friends are able-bodied adults, you'd be better served stocking up SKS's.

3) The S2K is so small and concealable that it might have some specialized purpose, dependent upon the individuals' circumstances. I agree that there are SBR solutions that would probably fit that bill as well, but they might be out of the price range of the person.

Of these, 2 and 3 are iffy. Only 1) is really solid. A person with a physical disadvantage (whether it's from being a child, elderly, injured, or whatever) needs a gun more than anyone, and they need one they can handle.

That said, I sold my Sub 2K because I didn't really have a use for it. I may pick another one up in the future, because they are fun guns. As far as fun guns that aren't tactical-practical go, I'm looking at a flintlock next.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:12 am

tarafore wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:Welp, there's my arguement against them. While I like them, I personally believe there are better designs. If you like them cool. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of theirs.
I have a question. And I'm not really trying to be a smartaleck. But the last time I bought a Sub2k, I paid $400 out the door (9mm, Glock mags). Can you get .300 BO AR's for that?
You can't. Cheapest I've seen on a 300 was $799. However, mags are $10 and Glock mags are $20-25. So add in the cost of 10 mags it's $899 for the 300 and $600 for the Sub2k. And here's another factor, since you're discussing this as a fighting rifle. Where are you going to get parts? My 300 BO is almost 100% compatible with all other ARs AND 100% of the parts can be bought off the shelf, are widely and readily available from 100's of sources. This is a factor for fighting guns, sorry, and it's a big one. Furthering this line of thought, is the Sub2K AT ALL fight proven? I've never seen one at a carbine course. People tout these guns but I've yet to see a single one at a carbine course, whether I was present or not. That tells me that it probably can not finish.
1) Useful for people who are too small/young/old/etc. to handle a full-sized gun (or who have physical disabilities that prevent them - the Sub2K is about twice as light & handy as any AR I've owned).
You're going to have the old/disabled pulling tiggers, really? My daughter is 8 but started shooting around 7. She's fine with a 22, if we're going to take this arguement to ad nauseum, a 22 LR is a better choice because it's even lighter, and cheaper.
2) Relatively cheap guns to keep around as "handouts" to friends who may show up in an emergency. This is pretty unlikely, all around, and if your friends are able-bodied adults, you'd be better served stocking up SKS's.

So, a almost 9lbs gun is better?

3) The S2K is so small and concealable that it might have some specialized purpose, dependent upon the individuals' circumstances. I agree that there are SBR solutions that would probably fit that bill as well, but they might be out of the price range of the person.
I don't think that Sub2K is all that concealable, but that's just me.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by MaconCJ7 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:33 am

Regular Guy wrote: You're going to have the old/disabled pulling tiggers, really? My daughter is 8 but started shooting around 7. She's fine with a 22, if we're going to take this arguement to ad nauseum, a 22 LR is a better choice because it's even lighter, and cheaper.
I take issue with that. Yes, I would. Hopefully they would never have to, but if they needed to, I would want them to be armed. If I have a sub2k readily on hand, they would be fine with it. In a perfect world of no evil, none of us would need arms for self defense. A perfect world we do not have.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:40 am

MaconCJ7 wrote:
Regular Guy wrote: You're going to have the old/disabled pulling tiggers, really? My daughter is 8 but started shooting around 7. She's fine with a 22, if we're going to take this arguement to ad nauseum, a 22 LR is a better choice because it's even lighter, and cheaper.
I take issue with that. Yes, I would. Hopefully they would never have to, but if they needed to, I would want them to be armed. If I have a sub2k readily on hand, they would be fine with it. In a perfect world of no evil, none of us would need arms for self defense. A perfect world we do not have.
Poor phrasing and out of context. What I meant to say was if you're concerned with a low cost firearm specifically for disabled/old why have a 9mm Sub2K? I was attempting to say a 22LR would be a better, IMO, option. Lower recoil, cost, etc with the 22LR are better and the capacity out of a rifle with the 22LR is almost as good as the 9mm, espcially with ball ammo. I gel tested a 22LR vs a 9mm FMJ and they are virtually the same.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by JTNieman » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:47 am

Regular Guy wrote:
MaconCJ7 wrote:
Regular Guy wrote: You're going to have the old/disabled pulling tiggers, really? My daughter is 8 but started shooting around 7. She's fine with a 22, if we're going to take this arguement to ad nauseum, a 22 LR is a better choice because it's even lighter, and cheaper.
I take issue with that. Yes, I would. Hopefully they would never have to, but if they needed to, I would want them to be armed. If I have a sub2k readily on hand, they would be fine with it. In a perfect world of no evil, none of us would need arms for self defense. A perfect world we do not have.
Poor phrasing and out of context. What I meant to say was if you're concerned with a low cost firearm specifically for disabled/old why have a 9mm Sub2K? I was attempting to say a 22LR would be a better, IMO, option. Lower recoil, cost, etc with the 22LR are better and the capacity out of a rifle with the 22LR is almost as good as the 9mm, espcially with ball ammo. I gel tested a 22LR vs a 9mm FMJ and they are virtually the same.
Yea? What was the expanded projectile diameter of .22lr, and penetration? What was the expanded bullet diameter and penetration of 9mm?

What were the results?

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:55 am

JTNieman wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:I gel tested a 22LR vs a 9mm FMJ and they are virtually the same.
Yea? What was the expanded projectile diameter of .22lr, and penetration? What was the expanded bullet diameter and penetration of 9mm?

What were the results?
Yea. The FMJ 22 didn't expand as much as it tumbled/mushroomed. Penetrations was about 14-16" out of 16" barreled 10/22. The 9mm FMJ pushed completely through the block and I couldn't find it. I saw no evidence of expansion or tumbling. It just pushed straight though. The 9mm rifle was the Ruger PC9. The 22LR wound looked worse to me. This was awhile ago so I don't have pics.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by JTNieman » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:57 am

Regular Guy wrote:
JTNieman wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:I gel tested a 22LR vs a 9mm FMJ and they are virtually the same.
Yea? What was the expanded projectile diameter of .22lr, and penetration? What was the expanded bullet diameter and penetration of 9mm?

What were the results?
Yea. The FMJ 22 didn't expand as much as it tumbled/mushroomed. Penetrations was about 14-16" out of 16" barreled 10/22. The 9mm FMJ pushed completely through the block and I couldn't find it. I saw no evidence of expansion or tumbling. It just pushed straight though. The 9mm rifle was the Ruger PC9. The 22LR wound looked worse to me. This was awhile ago so I don't have pics.
Was this standard 10% gelatin? Did you BB test it? Trying to compare to other gel tests with standard gel.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:04 am

JTNieman wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:
JTNieman wrote:
Regular Guy wrote: Yea. The FMJ 22 didn't expand as much as it tumbled/mushroomed. Penetrations was about 14-16" out of 16" barreled 10/22. The 9mm FMJ pushed completely through the block and I couldn't find it. I saw no evidence of expansion or tumbling. It just pushed straight though. The 9mm rifle was the Ruger PC9. The 22LR wound looked worse to me. This was awhile ago so I don't have pics.
Was this standard 10% gelatin? Did you BB test it? Trying to compare to other gel tests with standard gel.
It was 10%. Yes, BB was 4" so it was a little thin. At the time it was comparable to the findings of others. A 22 LR out of a pistol was not impressive but the extra barrel length of the 10/22 really helps or it seems to me. This was one of my first tests years ago and may not have been the best one I've ever done however it was close to the findings of others. Super scientificatlly valid, no. A good exercise/learning experience for me, yes.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Turtlewolf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:20 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
TDW586 wrote:It's like talking to a fucking wall. :lol:
I just pretend users like that on't bother reading entire posts, preferring to look for keywords and make snap judgements based on that. I reiterate my correlation between the Mosin Nagant owners and Sub 2000 owners. And Hipoint lovers.

Shaddup I have a Sig now.
Now now, don't lump us Mosin Nagant people up with the Plastic Fantastic crowd!
One of these days you might visit in an Alberta winter (probably not, it keeps a lot of people south-I love it just for that!) and I'll show you why the Mosin Nagant has a legitimate place in the world even if it is small and in 75% of situations there is something better.
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Save a life, delete a Face Book account today.
You can drop your knife, loose your rifle but keep an eye on your axe.
Humanity does not survive alone.

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