A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

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A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Domino » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:59 pm

There has been a lot of discussion on Pistol Calibered Carbines lately that has been inevitably followed by tons of comments on how worthless they when compared to other rifles. While I am definately in the camp of "use a real rifle when you need a rifle", I still see a very real practical application for the S2k and similar type guns. Particularly as weapons for smaller individuals or family members that may not shoot guns as much as the some people here.

So, the intent in this thread is to demonstrate how these weapons are best employed and what their strengths and weaknesses are. I welcome everyones input as long as it stays civil and people keep on topic, so I'll start it off with a few points in the order of importance.

1.) Accuracy V.S. Handguns : Simply put, long guns are much easier to shoot accurately than handguns for pretty much everyone. I practice a lot with pistols but shouldering a rifle and having a solid two handed hold REALLY helps when laying rounds on target regardless of range. So PCC's are more accurate in the practical world than handguns, just like any other rifle. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is not living in reality.

2.) Cost : Most PCC's are inexpensive compared to other rifles and handguns making them great truck/car or handout weapons. However If the PCC is too expensive, it becomes hard to justify when you can get a good rifle instead like an AK, SKS, AR-15, or similar.

3.) Size and Weight : In the case of the S2k, it is so lightweight and compact I don't think there is really too much to compare it to. Dimensions are 16X8" folded, a nice 30" Unfolded, and 4 lbs unloaded. There is no real rifle that comes even close that is not an NFA item. As such, it can go places many other rifles can't and it can deliver more accurate firepower than a standard handgun. However it is important to note, NO PCC is a replacement for a good self-defense handgun. Again, If the PCC is too heavy than it becomes hard to justify when it compares to the weight of an AK or AR-15.

4.) Logistics : With the S2k and many other PCC's, they use the same ammunition and magazines as popular handguns. If you already have handguns that utililize the same magazines and ammunition than it simplifies logistics and reduces cost when compared to the alternative. Not a HUGE deal but a noteworthy one nonetheless and it might make sense for someone who is trying to equip as many people as possible on a budget.

So in conclusion, the S2k (or similar PCC's) is a good weapons for vehicles, backpacks, and for arming friends/family members on a budget. They can offer more accurate firepower when compared to just a handgun and they have plenty of ability to take out threats out to 150 meters. Aside from that they do not replace handguns or rifles (in a rifle caliber) by any means and anyone who is serious about firearm prepartions will aquire those first before a PCC. As long as you understand these limitations you cannot go wrong with having a PCC or two around.

And I just found this great review of the S2k by Hickock45 that came out last month. This video demostrates my #1 point of accuracy beautifully and everyone should watch it if they are on the fence about the S2k OR believe PCC's to be worthless in general. This guy is also a very accomplished pistol shot (shooting Glocks at 200 Meters) and he still seems to find a lot of value in the Sub 2000.

Last edited by Domino on Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by the_klenzer » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:38 pm

It's a toolbox. You put in the tools for the job.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Stercutus » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:10 pm

the_klenzer wrote:It's a toolbox. You put in the tools for the job.
In your case it was the best fit. The gun you have being better than the one you don't.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Turtlewolf » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
the_klenzer wrote:It's a toolbox. You put in the tools for the job.
In your case it was the best fit. The gun you have being better than the one you don't.
the_klenzer wrote:It's a toolbox. You put in the tools for the job.
Amen to both! Personaly I may be going with a .44 magnum Rossi Ranch Hand refit with a real buttstock next camping season, if I do it will be the first time in over 20 years I haven't taken one of my shotguns and will require extensive retraining!
Oh, in Canada the Rossi Ranch Hand is a non regulated firearm so requires no special paperwork just so our southern boys/girls know that I'm not talking about breaking any laws here!
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by bennyG19 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:31 pm

If I could find one around here I'd buy it. They are about as common as unicorns at local gun stores.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:44 pm

OKay, I didn't want to poop up other PCC threads but I'll interject my opinion here.
I believe the 300 Black Out has destroyed the need for a PCC. Because with the right loads, the 300BO acts just like a pistol caliber carbine. The ones that use Glock mags cost as much as an AR in 300BO.
Here are, in my view, the advantages of the 300 over a 9mm. It's built on the proven AR platform, most PCC are proprietary designs. It use the proven and affordable AR mags. With a simple switch of ammo it will perform like a rifle, no PCC can do this. The 300BO with subsonic ammo is very light recoiling.
Yes, the 300BO is about 2 lbs heavier on average but the trade off in reliability and durability is worth it, IMO. Yes, 9mm ammo for blasting is cheaper but for most premium hollow points it's a dollar a round. Sub sonic 300 is $0.71 a rd. More or less the same in price but a 300 subsonic performs better further.

Welp, there's my arguement against them. While I like them, I personally believe there are better designs. If you like them cool. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of theirs.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by the_klenzer » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:04 am

Blacksmith wrote:
the_klenzer wrote:It's a toolbox. You put in the tools for the job.
In your case it was the best fit. The gun you have being better than the one you don't.
I really just wanted a chance to quote DeNiro in Ronin. :)
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by ashwednesday » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:45 am

Pcc isn't that much lighter.
Can't be had in full auto, where at least the pistol cal rounds could be used.to advantage in short distance encounters. Controllability in full auto is a legit pcc advantage.
Has to meet minimum barrel length requirements, so really not any better for small space fighting. Ditto the overall length.
AR takes down in half with push of two pins.
...all of the advantages over a rifle are negated by Legislation.
So might as well have a rifle.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Turtlewolf » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:43 am

Regular Guy wrote:OKay, I didn't want to poop up other PCC threads but I'll interject my opinion here.
I believe the 300 Black Out has destroyed the need for a PCC. Because with the right loads, the 300BO acts just like a pistol caliber carbine. The ones that use Glock mags cost as much as an AR in 300BO.
Here are, in my view, the advantages of the 300 over a 9mm. It's built on the proven AR platform, most PCC are proprietary designs. It use the proven and affordable AR mags. With a simple switch of ammo it will perform like a rifle, no PCC can do this. The 300BO with subsonic ammo is very light recoiling.
Yes, the 300BO is about 2 lbs heavier on average but the trade off in reliability and durability is worth it, IMO. Yes, 9mm ammo for blasting is cheaper but for most premium hollow points it's a dollar a round. Sub sonic 300 is $0.71 a rd. More or less the same in price but a 300 subsonic performs better further.

Welp, there's my arguement against them. While I like them, I personally believe there are better designs. If you like them cool. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of theirs.
If you build your AR in .300 BO for subsonic loads you need a specific rifling twist, if you are shooting the supersonic 7.62x39 Russian equivalent loads you need another rifling pitch to get the most out of it as well. Savage canceled thier .300 BO project because there was no happy middle groung rifling twist that would work according to thier accuracy requirements for a firearm.
So what you are actualy suggesting is a proven platform (that is actualy still pointless to own for some of us because of legislative restrictions or simply dislike) in a niche cartridge that realy is not actualy a do it all in one gun, any 6.5mm or even the 6.8 in an AR is better by far IMHO than the specialty .300 BO.
BTW I think the Blackout is neat, but it is almost more of a specialty cartridge than even the .450 Bushmaster (which in it's own right is still interesting but not so much as the .458 SOCOM).
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Stercutus » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:49 am

ashwednesday wrote:Pcc isn't that much lighter.
Can't be had in full auto, where at least the pistol cal rounds could be used.to advantage in short distance encounters. Controllability in full auto is a legit pcc advantage.
Has to meet minimum barrel length requirements, so really not any better for small space fighting. Ditto the overall length.
AR takes down in half with push of two pins.
...all of the advantages over a rifle are negated by Legislation.
So might as well have a rifle.
One of your statements is incongruous and another is untrue.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by ashwednesday » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:22 pm

Please elaborate.
"Flawlessly". Every time I see this word in a thread, I brace myself for bullshit. Around half the time I end up feeling vindicated.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by DarkAxel » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:15 pm

ashwednesday wrote: AR takes down in half with push of two pins.
I anted to address this one in the other thread, but it got locked before I could. Lets examine the steps needed to get a folded S2K and a broke down AR into the fight.

S2K: Unfold. Lock.
AR: Remove pins from lower or upper, insert upper, replace pins. (this is assuming you stored the takedown pins in the rifle).

Now with all of the stress that comes with getting shot at, which do you think would be easier? Unfolding a rifle and locking it, or having to mess around with the smallish takedown pins on an AR. An AR isn't built to be put together while bullets are flying. Sure, a person could train themselves to put an upper and lower together under stress, but that takes training time away from more important aspects of gunfighting: Namely fighting.

I hear this "The AR breaks down easily" argument all the time when people bring up the Sub 2000, but when you really examine it, it doesn't hold water. There are many reasons to choose an AR over the Sub 2000. This isn't one of them.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Stercutus » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:41 pm

ashwednesday wrote:Please elaborate.
If it "can't be had" then how could it be "advantage"?

SBRs are available most places, they just cost more.

Perhaps you are overlooking sub machine guns? These seem to be what you are thinking but are prohibitively expensive for all but the most resourceful.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by nimdabew » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:53 pm

PCC's are great if you want small and quiet. Not very many other reasons why I would want one though. my next long arm "fun gun" is a 9mm AR-15 with a can on it FWIW. 147's out of a 7" barrel and a can = win.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:47 pm

I ouldlike to see a comparison of someone trying to assemble an AR out of a pack, and unfold a sub 2000 out of a pack. I don't believe I'd want to do either under fire, but being extremely familiar with the AR, I bet I could do it plenty fast. Recap: if you're getting show at, neither one is fast.

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A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Spd164 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:51 pm

DarkAxel wrote:
ashwednesday wrote: AR takes down in half with push of two pins.
I anted to address this one in the other thread, but it got locked before I could. Lets examine the steps needed to get a folded S2K and a broke down AR into the fight.

S2K: Unfold. Lock.
AR: Remove pins from lower or upper, insert upper, replace pins. (this is assuming you stored the takedown pins in the rifle).

Now with all of the stress that comes with getting shot at, which do you think would be easier? Unfolding a rifle and locking it, or having to mess around with the smallish takedown pins on an AR. An AR isn't built to be put together while bullets are flying. Sure, a person could train themselves to put an upper and lower together under stress, but that takes training time away from more important aspects of gunfighting: Namely fighting.

I hear this "The AR breaks down easily" argument all the time when people bring up the Sub 2000, but when you really examine it, it doesn't hold water. There are many reasons to choose an AR over the Sub 2000. This isn't one of them.
Do you own an AR?

The takedown pins are captured in the lower receiver, so without trying really really hard the pins are going to be in the receiver regardless.

Also, if you are waiting until you get shot at to retrieve your folded or disassembled long gun from wherever you stored it, then unfold or assemble it, load it, and get it in the fight it is my humble opinion that you've lost at being properly prepared.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by ashwednesday » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:59 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
ashwednesday wrote:Please elaborate.
If it "can't be had" then how could it be "advantage"?

SBRs are available most places, they just cost more.

Perhaps you are overlooking sub machine guns? These seem to be what you are thinking but are prohibitively expensive for all but the most resourceful.
Point being, it would be an advantage if it were obtainable within reasonable means, but since it isn't...
Yes, a submachine gun. Which would be too much trouble for me to obtain.
I have a KelTec Sub2000, got it in trade for a SW Sigma .40 I had $200 into. I just don't see them as the ultimate. It's an overlong submachine gun with no full auto, or it's a rifle that doesn't shoot very far with modest ballistic performance at distance. Everyone talks up the ammo / mag commonality- it I already have a tool that launches .40 or 9mm rounds and I have room for a whole other tool I'm going to bring something that fires rifle cal bullets, not a bigger heavier version of what I already have.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:07 pm

Turtlewolf wrote:
Regular Guy wrote: :words:

Welp, there's my arguement against them. While I like them, I personally believe there are better designs. If you like them cool. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of theirs.
If you build your AR in .300 BO for subsonic loads you need a specific rifling twist, if you are shooting the supersonic 7.62x39 Russian equivalent loads you need another rifling pitch to get the most out of it as well.

Seems FN has figured it out because @ 50m mine fires both at POA.

Savage canceled thier .300 BO project because there was no happy middle groung rifling twist that would work according to thier accuracy requirements for a firearm.

Welp, maybe they should have tried harder. :P

So what you are actualy suggesting is a proven platform (that is actualy still pointless to own for some of us because of legislative restrictions or simply dislike) in a niche cartridge that realy is not actualy a do it all in one gun, any 6.5mm or even the 6.8 in an AR is better by far IMHO than the specialty .300 BO.

Balls. 6.5 and 6.8 don't run subsonic. The 300 is now produced in more loads than the 6.5 and 6.8 combined. Both the 6s are niche, the 300 is now being produced by the big names, S&W, Remington, etc. Hardly niche. Neither of the 6s act like a pistol caliber either. Sorry, they don't.

BTW I think the Blackout is neat, but it is almost more of a specialty cartridge than even the .450 Bushmaster (which in it's own right is still interesting but not so much as the .458 SOCOM).
You dab the 300 as a niche then bring up the 45 calibers? There is no mainstream companies making the 458 and only one company makes the 45BM.

I stand by my original statement, the 300 can perform as a pistol caliber and a rifle on a proven mainstream platform.
ETA: Both the 6s use proprietary mags as well making them clownshoes. Proprietary mags that are jinky as well.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:16 pm

RG: Canada is a different case, with the mag limits for centerfire stuff. Still, max on centerfire pistols is what, 10?

The Sub2000 strikes me as standard KelTec fare, it does nothong well, but does several things cheap, and if you insult it, owners will come out of the woodwork to tell you how wrong you are, facts be damned. It's the modern Mosin-Nagant. It's not a great option, or even a good one, but it's a cheap compromise and plenty of folks are fine with that.

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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Stercutus » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:06 pm

Balls. 6.5 and 6.8 don't run subsonic. The 300 is now produced in more loads than the 6.5 and 6.8 combined. Both the 6s are niche, the 300 is now being produced by the big names, S&W, Remington, etc. Hardly niche. Neither of the 6s act like a pistol caliber either. Sorry, they don't.
Do too. You should read this:

http://bisonarmory.com/6-8mm-subsonic/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't agree with their entire argument but there is some merit in there.

6.5G is more of a longer range round. Running it subsonic would be an exercise in futility.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by DarkAxel » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:06 pm

Spd164 wrote:
DarkAxel wrote:
ashwednesday wrote: AR takes down in half with push of two pins.
I anted to address this one in the other thread, but it got locked before I could. Lets examine the steps needed to get a folded S2K and a broke down AR into the fight.

S2K: Unfold. Lock.
AR: Remove pins from lower or upper, insert upper, replace pins. (this is assuming you stored the takedown pins in the rifle).

Now with all of the stress that comes with getting shot at, which do you think would be easier? Unfolding a rifle and locking it, or having to mess around with the smallish takedown pins on an AR. An AR isn't built to be put together while bullets are flying. Sure, a person could train themselves to put an upper and lower together under stress, but that takes training time away from more important aspects of gunfighting: Namely fighting.

I hear this "The AR breaks down easily" argument all the time when people bring up the Sub 2000, but when you really examine it, it doesn't hold water. There are many reasons to choose an AR over the Sub 2000. This isn't one of them.
Do you own an AR? Dude, I was in the Army.

The takedown pins are captured in the lower receiver, so without trying really really hard the pins are going to be in the receiver regardless. Last AR I used, the pins came completely out. It was a custom build, though

Also, if you are waiting until you get shot at to retrieve your folded or disassembled long gun from wherever you stored it, then unfold or assemble it, load it, and get it in the fight it is my humble opinion that you've lost at being properly prepared. Shit happens, dude, and sometimes you don't get any warning before bullets start flying. Putting an AR together or opening up the Sub 2000 before bullets start flying kinda defeats the purpose of having a concealable carbine, doesn't it? In a Get-Home situation, open carrying a carbine of any flavor will be kinda obvious. Fact of the matter is, someone like Doc Torr could probably get an AR into the fight pretty fast because he's a marine. The average joe? maybe not so much.
Like Doc Said, I'd like to see videos comparing the time it takes the average joe to get both weapons ready to fire. I'd say the joe with the Sub 2000 will be in the fight faster, simply because there are fewer steps and it's less complicated.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the AR system, and there's no question that I'd prefer to have a rifle caliber carbine in my hands in just about every situation I can think of, but I just hate to see the Sub 2000's advantages dismissed based on questionable logic. As for the rifle itself, I think the fact that the rifle can fold up into a small package and can be deployed quickly are it's ONLY advantages, though (vs. rifle).

Vs. Pistol? Most of that is already covered up-thread. Pistols have a kinda steep learning curve, and it takes less training to make someone proficient with a PCC than with a Glock 22. Sure, more training will negate that advantage, but some people would be satisfied with just being proficient with a compact PCC like the Sub2000, and concentrate on training for other equally important prep areas. You don't need to be highspeed to be prepped firearm-wise.


EDIT: I think I should qualify that the last AR I used WAS NOT an issue weapon, but a custom build a friend did for me.
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Caenus » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:15 pm

FWIW, Savage dropped the 300 because they wanted it to shoot 1moa out of the same barrel, suppressed and unsuppressed. That's kinda hard to do and not what it was designed to do. 3 moa at 100 running suppressed is better than a PCC with more energy at 100 than a 9mm has at the muzzle and the supersonics run 2-3 moa with the same barrel unsuppressed...with a 10" barrel at that.

So better than a PCC and equivalent to an AK. I think it would be a much better all around gun for a bugout than a PCC and still gives you carbine performance if you need it, although is does take time to remove the suppressor and flip the switch for the gas system and switch mags.

Ammo is easy to find although 9mm and 5.56 will likely always be cheaper, not that 300 is exotically priced.

It is appropriate to bring up the 300 in PCC discussions when comparing other options IMO.
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Stercutus
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Stercutus » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:18 pm

Caenus wrote:
Ammo is easy to find although 9mm and 5.56 will likely always be cheaper, not that 300 is exotically priced.
All true, but which would you rather send at a serious threat? (9mm vs 300)

5.56 is so superior to 9mm there is little to argue there.
These days of dust
Which we've known
Will blow away with this new Son

But I'll kneel down wait for now
And I'll kneel down
Know my ground

Caenus
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Re: A case for the S2k (and other PCC's in general)

Post by Caenus » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:23 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
Caenus wrote:
Ammo is easy to find although 9mm and 5.56 will likely always be cheaper, not that 300 is exotically priced.
All true, but which would you rather send at a serious threat? (9mm vs 300)

5.56 is so superior to 9mm there is little to argue there.
Definitely 300 at any range either would be used for (300 vs 9mm) It would be nice to have a quiet, suppressed carbine with an OAL the same as a standard 16" AR or S2K. I was about to build an AR in .45 ACP or 9mm to suppress, then ran across the 300. It will be my next build and probably replace my 14.5" AR as my truck/camping gun.

Ill likely build a second 300 for the wife and those will be our B/O guns.
"If guns kill people, then I can blame mispelled words on my pencil." - Larry the Cable Guy

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