Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by jethroUSMC » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:08 pm

jethroUSMC wrote:
doc66 wrote:Chin wield? How the hell are you mounting the optic? I've never had to chin an EoTech. And Aimpoints are tougher than what? The battery life is a given, when one is running a dot and the other a hologram, the dot is going to have a longer battery life, since it is not projected. As far as tougher, I throw, I mean throw, my rifle all the time in classes (as does Dave) and I've never had an EoTech fail due to my abuse.
An EOtech ain't gonna take the heat on an ultimak. If it does it allows enough to get to the battery and kill it, I've seen it happen on at least 20 AK's in classes they go tits up dead. Different rail system and they might be fine. Aimpoint doesn't have that issue, as well as a huge increase in battery life. For the Eotech I will say I do like the reticle.

I don't see the Chin weld issue for an EOTech though much more than any optic including a variable scope with a Russian or US stock. The cheekweld is non existant on the AK platform for most without modifying the system with an adapter plate, going to an AR Milspec buffer tube and something like a CTR stock with cheekriser. But that's for a different purposed AK74.

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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by L1Z4RD » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:25 pm

Bug out Carbine, eh? I don't have much imput, but I'd like a bullpup AK. But, Ak's are pretty heavy.
I like bullpup everything. The trick is to carry something that'll be light and you can carry a good amount of ammo.
I LOVE my AK, I LOVE my AR, but if I'm gonna be humping gear for long distances, I'd stick with a .22lr. They're light and you can get high cap mags for them.
Of course, I'll always have my sidearm.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by Dogan » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:23 pm

L1Z4RD wrote:Bug out Carbine, eh? I don't have much imput, but I'd like a bullpup AK. But, Ak's are pretty heavy.
I like bullpup everything. The trick is to carry something that'll be light and you can carry a good amount of ammo.
I LOVE my AK, I LOVE my AR, but if I'm gonna be humping gear for long distances, I'd stick with a .22lr. They're light and you can get high cap mags for them.
Of course, I'll always have my sidearm.
Now something light and compact in 22lr like a Rem 597 with folder, variable scope and BUIS, coupled with a 597 built as a pistol would be just about perfect, IMHO.

I actually have a 597 Skorpion-style pistol planned for building in the future, completely as a companion to my sub-MOA 597 and my lightweight 597.

Yeah, I'm a 597 whore. But seriously: Accuracy, reliability, fairly light platform and common, light weight ammo- what more could you ask for?
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by ZomCon Sargeant » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:19 am

Very nice article. The Sig 556 is a fine weapon. Other options are the H&K416 in 5.56mm or the H&K 417 in 7.62x51mm (among others) which both come in several size barrel lengths. However carrying the 7.62x51mm ammunition will weigh much much more than the 5.56mm.

I have a Ruger Mini-30 that fires the 7.62x39mm and my mife a Ruger 10/22 and we have no problems with the weight of ammo. Both of those rifles can accept folding or retractable stocks.

I am a big fan of the FN SCAR, however I currently do not have the funds to aquire one.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by the_klenzer » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:23 pm

OP, good article, well thought out and well written. Not the perfect choice for everyone, but hard to argue against!

Wondering if anyone has considered the Tavor TAR-21?
* 5.56 bullpup
* 28" long
* 18" barrel

All the goodness of a full size rifle in a tiny package, battle tested, reliable, accurate enough for any bug out purpose. Easy to tuck out of sight, would fit in a tennis bag at your hip... I don't own one, but if I could only pick one bug out rifle, it seems to fit the bill perfectly. Kind of ugly though, not sexy like the OPs, choice.

Anyway, would love to hear the experts thoughts on it!

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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by squinty » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:20 pm

the_klenzer wrote:OP, good article, well thought out and well written. Not the perfect choice for everyone, but hard to argue against!

Wondering if anyone has considered the Tavor TAR-21?
* 5.56 bullpup
* 28" long
* 18" barrel

All the goodness of a full size rifle in a tiny package, battle tested, reliable, accurate enough for any bug out purpose. Easy to tuck out of sight, would fit in a tennis bag at your hip... I don't own one, but if I could only pick one bug out rifle, it seems to fit the bill perfectly. Kind of ugly though, not sexy like the OPs, choice.

Anyway, would love to hear the experts thoughts on it!

Image

If cost is taken into consideration, I'm taking a 10" VZ58. Actually, I'm probably taking that anyway.
I think it's dead sexy but not sure if anyone imports it into the US.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by BullOnParade » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:38 pm

squinty wrote:
the_klenzer wrote:OP, good article, well thought out and well written. Not the perfect choice for everyone, but hard to argue against!

Wondering if anyone has considered the Tavor TAR-21?
* 5.56 bullpup
* 28" long
* 18" barrel

All the goodness of a full size rifle in a tiny package, battle tested, reliable, accurate enough for any bug out purpose. Easy to tuck out of sight, would fit in a tennis bag at your hip... I don't own one, but if I could only pick one bug out rifle, it seems to fit the bill perfectly. Kind of ugly though, not sexy like the OPs, choice.

Anyway, would love to hear the experts thoughts on it!

Image

If cost is taken into consideration, I'm taking a 10" VZ58. Actually, I'm probably taking that anyway.
I think it's dead sexy but not sure if anyone imports it into the US.
I think, that is one of the few bullpups that are not prohibited in Canada (the semi-auto only model). If I found one, it would be in my safe, without a doubt.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by the_klenzer » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:01 pm

BullOnParade wrote: I think, that is one of the few bullpups that are not prohibited in Canada (the semi-auto only model). If I found one, it would be in my safe, without a doubt.
Lots of places to find one... if you have $3000 :)
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by BullOnParade » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:42 am

the_klenzer wrote:
BullOnParade wrote: I think, that is one of the few bullpups that are not prohibited in Canada (the semi-auto only model). If I found one, it would be in my safe, without a doubt.
Lots of places to find one... if you have $3000 :)
Well then I suppose my credit card is just lucky to have not seen one in person.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by azrael99 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:44 pm

i was wondering as a bug out rifle, what do you think of the VZ 858 with folding stock and 5 rounds mags and a clip pouch ?
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don't forget that we are restricted to 5 rounds magazines heres, even full size magazine are pinned so there is no point to have it. and it would be more compact and could keep a lower profile when been in couch position
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by BullOnParade » Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:57 pm

azrael99 wrote:i was wondering as a bug out rifle, what do you think of the VZ 858 with folding stock and 5 rounds mags and a clip pouch ?
Image
Image
Image
don't forget that we are restricted to 5 rounds magazines heres, even full size magazine are pinned so there is no point to have it. and it would be more compact and could keep a lower profile when been in couch position
If you're considering that, take a look at this thread:
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 09&t=83306

For half the price of the 858, you can pick up a modest rifle and 1400 rounds for that same rifle.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by azrael99 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:13 pm

when i though i chooses which one i should get between the 858 and the sks, someone ad a new reason to get the other.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by the_klenzer » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:08 pm

Get the VZ58, its a way better rifle than the SKS if you can spare the bucks. Lighter, faster, better ergonomics, waay smaller for travel with a folding stock. Lots of aftermarket parts if you want to blackticool it. I own 2 and would take them over almost any other nonrestricted rifle, one basic and one loaded with mods.

Edit, a fun option: you could get the CSA VZ58 in .223 and then an AR magwell adaper so you get the benefit of .223 and 10rd LAR 10rd mags (Cdn legal), though you lose the cheap surplus 7.62. Thatd be a hell of a bug out rifle, though $1000ish, and theres cheaper options like the SU16, though the VZ is a true battle rifle. Anyway, just a thought.

Here's my tricked to the tits VZ58L
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by azrael99 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:21 pm

i though about it but.............for the range i want to shoot, would the .223 be better than the 7.62X39 ? in term of accuracy and kinetic energy.
since i will shoot at a average of 100 yard and max 200 yard, the accuracy of both ammo is pretty close, but the 223 have a more straight fly. (i checked those pattern with the winchester website simulator. http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by the_klenzer » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:10 am

If we're still talking bug out rifles...
Of the reasons to pick one vs the other, bullet flight trajectory patterns would be pretty low on my list, especially at 100yds, which you're never going to engange anyone any further than while bugging out. I'd imagine most bug out conflict scenarios would be under 50yds. Just get a reliable gun and learn to shoot the hell out of it.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by PotatoMuncher » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:39 am

I like the blog, despite its points that I don't exactly agree with, but it was good. P

Prefrably, I'd take my modified Golani with me as a bug-out firearm, but that ain't happening. She's beautiful, but she's a big girl.

Realistically, I'd take my .40cal Sub-2000. I love that little sucker to death.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by tuckmaster1 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:51 pm

If you're on a budget the hi-point 995ts is a pretty good choice for those "close encounters" or a last resort gun

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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by MacAttack » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:01 am

I love the VZ58.

I just wish they would have made it take standard AK mags.

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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by g1zm0 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:08 am

My rifle of choice is my AR15 as it is what I train with the most in the military. I am very familiar with it and I feel if the ZA happens there will be a few laying around for parts and ammo. On the other hand an AK platform my be just as suitable. Weather its a 47 or a 74 style they will be available as well as their ammo. Now for a natural disaster Bug out rifle anything that you are comfortable with that uses a common round would suffice. If you are looking for concealment look into folding stocks, or sub-guns (pistol caliber carbines) in a common and available round. This will all depend on the major situation. If its leaving your home for a week while a hurricane takes its toll you may not have a home to come home to, but those resources such as the national guard and local LE will be intact so a carbine may not be needed. Now if WW3 breaks out and you are fighting an invading force of course a carbine is a necessity in my book. Just my two cents take is as you want it.

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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by squinty » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:38 am

g1zm0 wrote:My rifle of choice is my AR15 as it is what I train with the most in the military. I am very familiar with it and I feel if the ZA happens there will be a few laying around for parts and ammo. On the other hand an AK platform my be just as suitable. Weather its a 47 or a 74 style they will be available as well as their ammo. Now for a natural disaster Bug out rifle anything that you are comfortable with that uses a common round would suffice. If you are looking for concealment look into folding stocks, or sub-guns (pistol caliber carbines) in a common and available round. This will all depend on the major situation. If its leaving your home for a week while a hurricane takes its toll you may not have a home to come home to, but those resources such as the national guard and local LE will be intact so a carbine may not be needed. Now if WW3 breaks out and you are fighting an invading force of course a carbine is a necessity in my book. Just my two cents take is as you want it.
Please do not assume there will be anything "laying around" for the taking in a disaster. Assume that what you stockpiled is all you'll have. Guns and ammo will be bought up/hoarded as quickly as any other commodity in a true PAW, and despite the fact that "scavenging" is a staple of disaster/PAW movies, it will be called "looting" in a real disaster (see Katrina). Your point about the virtues of a common platform, parts and ammo availability is still a very good point though. Those things are all great advantages in the NAW, making it easier to stock up on ammo and spare parts, and easier to maintain the weapon.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by g1zm0 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:09 am

squinty wrote:
g1zm0 wrote:My rifle of choice is my AR15 as it is what I train with the most in the military. I am very familiar with it and I feel if the ZA happens there will be a few laying around for parts and ammo. On the other hand an AK platform my be just as suitable. Weather its a 47 or a 74 style they will be available as well as their ammo. Now for a natural disaster Bug out rifle anything that you are comfortable with that uses a common round would suffice. If you are looking for concealment look into folding stocks, or sub-guns (pistol caliber carbines) in a common and available round. This will all depend on the major situation. If its leaving your home for a week while a hurricane takes its toll you may not have a home to come home to, but those resources such as the national guard and local LE will be intact so a carbine may not be needed. Now if WW3 breaks out and you are fighting an invading force of course a carbine is a necessity in my book. Just my two cents take is as you want it.
Please do not assume there will be anything "laying around" for the taking in a disaster. Assume that what you stockpiled is all you'll have. Guns and ammo will be bought up/hoarded as quickly as any other commodity in a true PAW, and despite the fact that "scavenging" is a staple of disaster/PAW movies, it will be called "looting" in a real disaster (see Katrina). Your point about the virtues of a common platform, parts and ammo availability is still a very good point though. Those things are all great advantages in the NAW, making it easier to stock up on ammo and spare parts, and easier to maintain the weapon.
True. Allow me to clarify, in a ZA situation there will be some laying around in the area of military and LE locations. The last stand kind of areas. And agreed it is no excuse for not getting plenty of ammo and some spare parts. I do agree with your statement of they will be snatched up in a real disaster. The reason for my statement is that with the common parts and ammo being available is that in the ZA situation military weapons will be on or near zack in some instances, thus giving you spare parts, ammo and magazines. Also as a MP I do not condone looting. Thank you for pointing out the ups and downs of my original post. I know I'm not an expert and dont claim to be. Especially since my ammo count is low as of this point. 100 or so rifle rounds 50 or so pistol and 50 or so 12 gauge and thats all birdshot. Currently working on a plan to get more as time goes on.

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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by squinty » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:38 am

g1zm0 wrote:
squinty wrote:
g1zm0 wrote:My rifle of choice is my AR15 as it is what I train with the most in the military. I am very familiar with it and I feel if the ZA happens there will be a few laying around for parts and ammo. On the other hand an AK platform my be just as suitable. Weather its a 47 or a 74 style they will be available as well as their ammo. Now for a natural disaster Bug out rifle anything that you are comfortable with that uses a common round would suffice. If you are looking for concealment look into folding stocks, or sub-guns (pistol caliber carbines) in a common and available round. This will all depend on the major situation. If its leaving your home for a week while a hurricane takes its toll you may not have a home to come home to, but those resources such as the national guard and local LE will be intact so a carbine may not be needed. Now if WW3 breaks out and you are fighting an invading force of course a carbine is a necessity in my book. Just my two cents take is as you want it.
Please do not assume there will be anything "laying around" for the taking in a disaster. Assume that what you stockpiled is all you'll have. Guns and ammo will be bought up/hoarded as quickly as any other commodity in a true PAW, and despite the fact that "scavenging" is a staple of disaster/PAW movies, it will be called "looting" in a real disaster (see Katrina). Your point about the virtues of a common platform, parts and ammo availability is still a very good point though. Those things are all great advantages in the NAW, making it easier to stock up on ammo and spare parts, and easier to maintain the weapon.
True. Allow me to clarify, in a ZA situation there will be some laying around in the area of military and LE locations. The last stand kind of areas. And agreed it is no excuse for not getting plenty of ammo and some spare parts. I do agree with your statement of they will be snatched up in a real disaster. The reason for my statement is that with the common parts and ammo being available is that in the ZA situation military weapons will be on or near zack in some instances, thus giving you spare parts, ammo and magazines. Also as a MP I do not condone looting. Thank you for pointing out the ups and downs of my original post. I know I'm not an expert and dont claim to be. Especially since my ammo count is low as of this point. 100 or so rifle rounds 50 or so pistol and 50 or so 12 gauge and thats all birdshot. Currently working on a plan to get more as time goes on.
Good luck with the preps! I'm not an expert on prepping, either, or on anything else.
Highly recommend Federal vital-shok 12 gauge 00 with the "flight control" wad for defensive shotgun. (low recoil for pumps and break open shotguns:http://www.sevenspringsarmory.com/feder ... 3200_5.htm
For semi-autos: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... 12-pell-oo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

And of course your shelter/water/food/medicine preps should take precedence over ammo, but this is the firearms section. Happy stockpiling.
Last edited by squinty on Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by PistolPete » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:44 am

g1zm0 wrote: True. Allow me to clarify, in a ZA situation there will be some laying around in the area of military and LE locations. The last stand kind of areas. And agreed it is no excuse for not getting plenty of ammo and some spare parts. I do agree with your statement of they will be snatched up in a real disaster. The reason for my statement is that with the common parts and ammo being available is that in the ZA situation military weapons will be on or near zack in some instances, thus giving you spare parts, ammo and magazines. Also as a MP I do not condone looting. Thank you for pointing out the ups and downs of my original post. I know I'm not an expert and dont claim to be. Especially since my ammo count is low as of this point. 100 or so rifle rounds 50 or so pistol and 50 or so 12 gauge and thats all birdshot. Currently working on a plan to get more as time goes on.
I understand what you are saying, but we actively try to discourage this sort of thinking here. In ZS we feel that planning on scavenging and looting to survive isn't actually planning at all.

This philosophy also assumes that you are going to survive in a situation where squads of trained soldiers don't survive, or it assumes they will abandon their posts without taking all the good stuff with them. It also assumes you'll be the first person to show up to such a scene, that it won't have already been picked over by other scavengers. In my mind that's risky, very risky. It's much better to plan ahead and make sure you have all the gear you need ahead of time.

Also, very few people here actually believe that they are preparing for a zombie apocalypse. It's just a fun way to prepare for more mundane disasters like a terrorist attack, natural disaster or civil unrest. I'd suggest in those situations you aren't going to have a "last stand" sort of scenario, or if you do have one say where police fall back from a position overrun by rioters, there's likely to be nothing left of value. I'd suggest that the likelyhood of one of those more mundane disasters should really be the focus of your preps, that way you're prepared for anything.

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Re: Thoughts on a "Bug-Out" Carbine

Post by goblin » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:26 am

The restriction of no folders is silly... the new Victorinox Soldier knife would be perfect for a GHB.
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