Appleseeds, experiences and questions

[Doctorr Fabulous]

500m is still tactical shooting with an MBR. Just saying.

ETA: With irons, no less.

[Neville]

The instructors were all pleasant. Even the one that was crusty, was the loveable crusty old codger type, not the crabby, mad at the world type.

Rifles - bring what you got, if you can pull the trigger, they let you use it. Like I said, it's challenging enough without the restrictions you mention. I did use iron sights the first day, and did dramatically reduce my group sizes. Second day I used a borrowed rifle with a scope, and did much better with that improvement.

No doubt, there are people who can flop down on the ground and put all their shots in a 4" group at 500 yards with a war surplus M1 Garand with iron sights. But there isn't one person in a thousand you could grab off the street, put that Garand in his hands as the first rifle he's ever fired, and have him doing that by the end of a two day course. I know that the military teaches marksmanship... and they spend a hell of a lot longer than 2 days teaching to achieve that level of skill with iron sights.

My hands aren't terribly steady and my eyesight was better 49 years ago than it is now. Not making excuses... I can still control breath, focus and a lot of other things and compensate for the eyesight with eyeglasses and a scope. If you at 20 years old can outshoot me at 50 with iron sights... well, is it all that much to brag on? The point of my post is not about how great a rifleman I am (I'm NOT) but about how a group is taking people from all walks of life, and teaching them the fundamentals of rifle shooting, for ACCURACY and not simply VOLUME OF FIRE. Thought someone here might find that of interest to them, for the purpose of building their skills.

[WY_Not]

Crypto,

We don't care what you shoot as long as it is safe. We do tend to nudge people to iron sights but not a requirement. Scopes can sometimes be a hinderance due to the magnification. Yes you can see your target better but you also see every little movement your rifle makes. People tend to fuss the shot more when they see this movent. That movement is there with irons but you don't see it. Unfortunately people's eyes age and scopes become a requirement. In the end though, bring what you have and shoot what you bring.

As for the range of people and instructors... we don't care what your political leanings are. We just want people to get their ass off the couch, find an issue they feel strongly about, and get involved.

Just this instructor's $0.02 worth. Anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask here or in PM.

[crypto]

No, I just meant that I'm not going to take my RDS off my AR to shoot an AS.


Are there any AS's that are out on long ranges, or is it all shot on the 25m AQT these days? I take AQT's to the range with me from time to time and wonder how you're supposed to account for something like holdover with one.

[WY_Not]

You don't have to take the RDS off. You might want to though just to give it a try. We are serious when we say bring what you have and shoot what you bring. We get ALL kinds of rifles on the line; tube fed, bolt actions, lever actions, single shots, and all combos thereof. And people shoot Rifleman with them. The critical factor in being successful (as with most things in life) is a teachable attitude. A good GI loop sling really helps too.

Most AS are at 25m because that is what the course of fire is designed to be. The target sizes are simulated/scaled. Also, once you get dialed in at 25m BSZ is simple to figure out and use if you know the come-ups on your rifle. On Sunday, we do teach the long distance / known distance componant. If the range has the range, we'll set up targets at actual distances and shoot.

I have heard of a few special events where they shoot AQTs at known distance but have not had the luck to attend such an event. For a normal AS, there is simply too much instruction crammed in to two days. Most ranges aren't set up to allow people downrange to score targets and walking back and forth eats a lot of time. You could always check out an Rifleman's Boot Camp. A full week of instruction and shooting. And, if I remember correctly, it is done at full distance (at least at the home range of Ramseur, NC).

At Gibsonburg, OH they go out to 500m and we do set up a 20" steel targets at 500m. Sunday afternoon we'll take the students over and let them put what we've taught them to use; either with their own centerfires or with a loaner from an instructor. Many of the instructors bring out their "toys" to play when there is full distance capaple range.

Best story for that one is a couple months back a Mom and her son came to the event. Neither had shot anything more than BB guns in the back yard. She had bought/borrowed (can't remember which) two .22lr rifles. Sunday afternoon we go over to the 500m line. She gets behind one of the instructors' M1A's. She rings steel on her first shot. She rang steel several more times before letting someone else try. She was grinning from ear to ear the rest of the day. A month later she ran into one of the instructors in the grocery and was still amped up about being able to take what she learned at 25m and make the steel ring at 500m with irons. For a new shooter, it is very empowering.

No, I just meant that I'm not going to take my RDS off my AR to shoot an AS.

Are there any AS's that are out on long ranges, or is it all shot on the 25m AQT these days? I take AQT's to the range with me from time to time and wonder how you're supposed to account for something like holdover with one.

[The7thNazgul]

Occaisonally there will be a known distance (or KD) AS ,but those are usually restricted to experienced riflemen and instructors. Trust me, learn it at 25 yards with a .22. You will save money.

[azstinger]

When I get back from my next deployment I am going to an AS event. Of these 3 rifle choices what would be the recommended; AK74 w/iron sight (potentially an eotech sight but doubtful), M1 Garand, or 77/22 with a hunting scope on it (has no iron sights or the capability to support them)?

edit: the only reason the 77/22 isn't a no brainer for me is that it has optics. While I know it is allowed, still feels a bit like cheating.

[WY_Not]

In all honesty, bring what you are comfortable with and what you are willing to feed and what will handle two full days of shooting. I've seen all three and then some on the line. While I love seeing the .30 cals on the line, they are getting pricey to feed now a days.

When I get back from my next deployment I am going to an AS event. Of these 3 rifle choices what would be the recommended; AK74 w/iron sight (potentially an eotech sight but doubtful), M1 Garand, or 77/22 with a hunting scope on it (has no iron sights or the capability to support them)?

edit: the only reason the 77/22 isn't a no brainer for me is that it has optics. While I know it is allowed, still feels a bit like cheating.

[tedbeau]

I would like to attend an appleseed shoot in the next year ot two with my grandson. I jsut purchased a Ruger 10/22 takedown model. My question is that it appears that s sling is required for an appleseed event and I was wondering about a recommendation for a sling for a ruger 10/22. The takedown model doesn't have and sling mounting hardware on it so I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction.

Also what are the opinons on using a scope verses iron sights, and are the standard ruger sights good enough?

[Zombland]

Most folks would have a very difficult time doing well at Appleseed without the proper use of a sling. I'm not familiar with your particular model of 10-22, but if it can't take a sling I think you're really setting yourself up for failure (with "failure" defined as not qualifying as "rifleman"--you'll still have lots of fun). (If you live in the Boston area, contact me off line and I can arrange for you to use my own 10-22--sling equipped and with the Tech Sights mentioned below.)

The OEM iron sights on the 10-22 are fine for plinking at cans, but entirely inadequate for the demands of any serious shooting (and Appleseed, while great fun, is serious shooting). If you're bent on iron sights, Tech Sights makes a well-designed set of iron sights for the 10-22, similar in design and use to the sights on a Garand. (Their web site is at: http://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm.) But Appleseed has no objection to you using optics, so if you don't have a need to prove anything vis a vis iron sights, optics might be an advisable option.

Appleseed is doable by most anybody using proper technique. Unfortunately, most of us think our technique is a lot better than it is. Appleseed will expose any such shortcomings ruthlessly. They will also work with you tirelessly to overcome those shortcomings. Great group.

Have fun, maintain realistic expectations, and follow their shooting advice, and all will turn out well.

[Zombland]

As for recommendations for a particular sling for the 10-22, you'll need both the sling and sling swivels or other hardware on which to mount the swing. Again, I'm not familiar with your particular model of 10-22. On my wood-stocked model, there were numerous options available. Google and I'm sure you'll come across tons of stuff. The sling isn't magic, it just needs to be solid, and there's lots of perfectly functional options out there for the 10-22 (although again I don't know what constraints you rung up against with a "take-down" model).

FYI, Appleseed's web site has tons of advice ont his kind of thing. First place I'd suggest you dig around.

[ninja-elbow]

I did fine with the good-'ol canvas GI M1 sling.