Appleseeds, experiences and questions

[PistolPete]

We get a lot of threads on Appleseeds, so I figured I'd put together one thread to pull them all together.

What is Appleseed?
You find find lots of info on their website. But in a nutshell an Appleseed is a weekend long shooting class. They are put on by volunteers nationwide for a very reasonable cost, typically $100. Women, children and people who served in the military attend for free at most (or perhaps all) of the classes. You can bring any rifle you already own, lots of people participate in an Appleseed using a basic .22 rifle. They work to make it affordable for as many people as they can.

It is designed as a basic marksmanship course, so it's perfect for new shooters, long time shooters looking to get some instruction and improve their accuracy and fundamentals and people who want a refresher course. It isn't designed for people who are experienced long distance shooters, trained military snipers, people who have an advanced practical understanding and training in rifle use or arm chair commandos. We have a number of people in each of those categories here on these forums. Appleseed isn't for you, so you don't really have a reason to post a similar sentiment in this thread. (that's a hint)

Any training you can get to be better prepared is good in my opinion. The Appleseed Project has, in the few years since it's inception, likely trained more people to shoot each month than any other program I'm aware of available to civilians. The people who volunteer are doing good work, and people's experiences after attending seem to be overwhelmingly positive.

They break up the shooting with some lessons on why being able to shoot a rifle is important and the history of the rifleman at the inception of the United States. They often offer camping on site or nearby, once again keeping costs down for people who wish to attend.

We've had lots of people already document their experiences on these forums, here are some of them:

Grin Reaper's Nationwide Appleseed thread

Mr. Trooper's write up

Phill goes to an Appleseed

The most recent thread (Ignore TravisM.1 he doesn't get enough attention at home)

TheBombDiggity's Appleseed experience

So, for future questions or experiences regarding Appleseed, let's post them here. If you have an actual Appleseed experience that didn't meet your expectations, please post it here. Other than that, keep the posts positive. If you have a comment regarding how you think Appleseed sucks because you already know all that stuff, keep it to yourself.

[Pyroguy]

I've been to two Appleseed shoots (Davilla, TX) and can honestly say that every one of them has been extremely great!

I've been shooting a rifle for a couple years now (benchrest shooting since this is all that's allowed at my local range) and pistols (formal tactical instruction) for even longer. The first time I went I thought I would nail the AQT with flying colors since I had no problem shooting 2MOA off a benchrest. Needless to say I was rather butthurt at myself on my drive home.

My first experience didn't faze me though - it made me more focused. I knew what I had to do and what I needed to teach my body (NPOA) - so every evening (or sometimes every other evening) for a month I practiced my prone, sitting, and standing positions at home for about 10mins or so. This made a HUGE difference a month later when I returned for my second Appleseed event! Even then, when I was on the shooting line the during the second day, Scout (Michael? Adams - Owner of the ranch that the Davilla Appleseed events take place at) approached me and showed me a more efficient way to do the standing position! Every time I go I learn something new.

Now that officially become a Rifleman (got my patch this past weekend) the next time I go I'm going to step up and don the hat of an instructor (well, Instructor-in-Training technically). All of the volunteer instructors are exceptional at what they do! I don't have a single negative thing to say about either events (except for the damned Texas heat, but there's no escaping that. Texas doesn't have "hot-August-nights" - we have Hot-May/June/July/Aug/Sept!)

Anyhow, just my $0.02

[thelight]

Here are Laditek, Jaspurr, and my experiences at a NY Appleseed shoot. With pics and courses of fire, etc.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=51308

[OkieZombies]

Welp folks.... I've read the appleseed threads on ZS and I am interested.

What I am wondering is what the average round count is.
If it's over 1,000 - I will probably get a 10/22 for it.
If it's less than 1,000 - I can be a little more flexible and use a centerfire.

***
Update, 1330 hours:
Psychomajortom answered +400 (always bring extra).

Thanks for the timely response.

[psychomajortom]

Their page said 400 for 2 days, i think.
ETA
http://appleseedinfo.org/as_faq.html

400 as a guideline, bring extra.

[WY_Not]

What is with all the merging of unrelated topics? Yes they are appleseed but they are different questions/topics/issues. Don't see all the shotgun topics getting merged, or the BOB topics merged, or the IFAK topics merged. Very annoying.

WY_Not

[PistolPete]

What is with all the merging of unrelated topics? Yes they are appleseed but they are different questions/topics/issues. Don't see all the shotgun topics getting merged, or the BOB topics merged, or the IFAK topics merged. Very annoying.

WY_Not

I haven't merged any topics yet.

But to answer your question, we've had 3 AS topics in a span of 5 days, it comes up all the time. Creating one home for them seemed to make sense.

And let's keep this thread about AS. If you have questions or concerns with how the forums are run, feel free to drop me a PM.

[OpelBlitz]

Their page said 400 for 2 days, i think.
ETA
http://appleseedinfo.org/as_faq.html

400 as a guideline, bring extra.

Yep that's roughly what we used.

[epirider]

I went to one in April and had a great experience. I was 8 points from shooting rifleman - then I watched my scope slide off the rail. SON OF A BIT... Anyway. The instructors had their hands full with the wife and I . We were both Law enforcement (her military, me civilian) and we had a LOT of bad habits to break and good habits to reinforce. We have already signed up for another on in June. As far as the ammo used - just a few more then 400. We both used our Ruger 10-22's for monetary reasons. But that was just us! There were people using AR15's, Mosin Nugants, lever action 30-30's and just about everything in between. We had a great time, it made for a long day though. I would recommend it to anyone - they are safe, professional and knowledgable. Not a bad thing to write about the whole experience.

[Pyroguy]

400 to 500 rounds is a safe bet. Based on this a rimfire is good ($80 for 500rnds of Wolf Match Extra vs. $350 for 500rnds of Federal 5.56).

One thing of note though, if you decide to use a drop-in conversion bolt for an AR-15 make sure the ammo you shoot is reliable. You've only got so many rounds per mag and only so much time to fire them in. One failure to feed/fire WILL hurt your score.

For my CMMG drop-in 22lr bolt I found out that I had the best pattern/reliability with Wolf Match Extra. Try a dozen or so different brands/types to see what you kit likes. All CMMG kits require match grade ammo (which is still a hell of a lot cheaper than 5.56/223!!

[jeep45238]

I hope I can help some folks. I'm an instructor for Appleseed, and am active in Ohio, and in Kentucky/Indiana when I can.

The most recent shoots that I've done were at New Philladelphia, Athens, and Gibsonburg, OH. All were simply AMAZING, and I'm now asking myself if it's more fun to teach, or more fun to shoot

The after action reports from those shoots, which hopefully will get some people involved, are in the links below.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=13954.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=13424.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=13208.0

Feel free to ask any questions about gear, mentality, courses of fire, instruction, - anything, and I'll do my best to answer

[Cpt. MelonBuster]

Soo as of late, I do not have a .22lr rifle as times have been rough lately, however, for the shorter shoots what do you guys think of using my m44? Cheap ammo, good for the saturday training shoot. On the longer range sunday shoot however, I'd switch to my AR. The local event long range shoot is at 400 yards, and the short shoot is either 50 or 100 I believe...

[jeep45238]

At pretty much all AS's, most of the shooting is done at 25m. I do not know of a single AS that uses 50 or 100m/yds to teach the fundamentals, simply because many people today don't have the talent to place all shots on a 8.5x11 piece of paper when they show up from the prone condition. That makes it next to impossible to work on the fundamentals as you get further away.

We encourage run what ya brung. M44's are accurate, and frankly even you can't group well with the rifle, you'll still learn the basics. I WOULD advise opening up the rear notch a bit to make it easier to find the front sight post on the M44 though - this is easily done with a needle file and some patience. You can even use the standard Mosin Nagant sling as a loop sling or a hasty. It's not nearly as quick or user friendly to set up as the USGI web sling, but it works just fine and dandy. Make sure to have stripper clips that work, it will make your life much easier.

Most of us instructors here in Ohio have multiple loaner 10/22 rifles setup with us at the shoots equipped with slings and generally 3 mags. I'm sure that the instructors local to you are probably in a similar situation, and if you contact the shoot boss for your event you can probably arrange to loan one of their rifles. They are generally equipped with a cheap scope or the iron sights from Tech Sights around these parts. Just ask, and you can probably borrow a rifle where enough ammo for most of the shoot for about $20

[Cpt. MelonBuster]

At pretty much all AS's, most of the shooting is done at 25m. I do not know of a single AS that uses 50 or 100m/yds to teach the fundamentals, simply because many people today don't have the talent to place all shots on a 8.5x11 piece of paper when they show up from the prone condition. That makes it next to impossible to work on the fundamentals as you get further away.

We encourage run what ya brung. M44's are accurate, and frankly even you can't group well with the rifle, you'll still learn the basics. I WOULD advise opening up the rear notch a bit to make it easier to find the front sight post on the M44 though - this is easily done with a needle file and some patience. You can even use the standard Mosin Nagant sling as a loop sling or a hasty. It's not nearly as quick or user friendly to set up as the USGI web sling, but it works just fine and dandy. Make sure to have stripper clips that work, it will make your life much easier.

Most of us instructors here in Ohio have multiple loaner 10/22 rifles setup with us at the shoots equipped with slings and generally 3 mags. I'm sure that the instructors local to you are probably in a similar situation, and if you contact the shoot boss for your event you can probably arrange to loan one of their rifles. They are generally equipped with a cheap scope or the iron sights from Tech Sights around these parts. Just ask, and you can probably borrow a rifle where enough ammo for most of the shoot for about $20

Which side is the timed section, the short range or longe range?

[jeep45238]

Here in Ohio, we haven't done a long range timed shoot to date. We're looking at changing that on Father's day weekend with a full 100-400m AQT at one location. The timed sections are for the AQT, which consist of a 2 minute standing, 55 second standing to seated, 65 second standing to prone, and 5 minute prone stage.

Most, and I do mean most, of the firing is done using reduced sized targets at 25m. Saturday is the day we teach most of the fundamentals, and we polish on Sunday non-stop. We've done after-hours 500+ yard shooting on both days at the locations that will allow it here in Ohio.

To get an idea of what your targets will look like size wise at 25m, place a quarter on something that will hold it upright, and take about 8 full paces away.

[423aaron]

Which side is the timed section, the short range or longe range?

The AQT is run in 4 stages.
Stage 1 is standing 10 rounds in 2 min, 100m range sim target
Stage 2 is standing to siting/kneeling 10 rounds, 55 sec with a target shift, and a reload, 200m range sim target
Stage 3 is standing to prone 10 rounds, 65 sec, 2 target shifts, and a reload, 300m range sim target
Stage 4 is slow fire prone 4 targets 5 min, 400m range sim target

The AQT is the AQT whether it is run at 25m or full distance.

We had a guy shoot a 91/30 at one of the Appleseeds I ran in Kingsport TN. He did fine. On that same fireing line we had a guy running a Styer Scout he did a little better but not $$$ better.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1926.0
At the botom of this thread you can find a link to photos from that shoot. Notice he is shooting it with the bayonet. Believe it or not that is allowed and is what the manual for that rifle calls for.

Aaron

[Cpt. MelonBuster]

Which side is the timed section, the short range or longe range?

The AQT is run in 4 stages.
Stage 1 is standing 10 rounds in 2 min, 100m range sim target
Stage 2 is standing to siting/kneeling 10 rounds, 55 sec with a target shift, and a reload, 200m range sim target
Stage 3 is standing to prone 10 rounds, 65 sec, 2 target shifts, and a reload, 300m range sim target
Stage 4 is slow fire prone 4 targets 5 min, 400m range sim target

The AQT is the AQT whether it is run at 25m or full distance.

We had a guy shoot a 91/30 at one of the Appleseeds I ran in Kingsport TN. He did fine. On that same fireing line we had a guy running a Styer Scout he did a little better but not $$$ better.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1926.0
At the botom of this thread you can find a link to photos from that shoot. Notice he is shooting it with the bayonet. Believe it or not that is allowed and is what the manual for that rifle calls for.

Aaron

Soo then I'm thinking stage 1+2 with the M44, then switch to my AR for stages 3 and 4

[423aaron]

[quote="Cpt. MelonBuster]
Soo then I'm thinking stage 1+2 with the M44, then switch to my AR for stages 3 and 4[/quote]

I would not recommend that. I would recommend that you pick one and try to get all you can out of it for at least one day before switching. Unless you have an equipment problem then you will need to go to the other rifle. Many of the problems we see are due to people switching equipment a lot. This keeps you from really progressing any with your skill. I'd recommend that you run the AR on Sat and then switch to the Nagant on Sun. This will allow you to focus more on skill building than on dealing with the "short comings" of the Nagant. On Sunday you will have a feel for how the class will run and have a good grasp of the fundamentals. You can then start saving $ by shooting the 54R ammo.

[jeep45238]

Soo then I'm thinking stage 1+2 with the M44, then switch to my AR for stages 3 and 4

Dooooooon't do that.

Ask yourself this - are you there for a score/patch, or there to learn how to shoot?

If you're there to learn how to shoot, any rifle will do. Don't go for a score.

[Cpt. MelonBuster]

Soo then I'm thinking stage 1+2 with the M44, then switch to my AR for stages 3 and 4

Dooooooon't do that.

Ask yourself this - are you there for a score/patch, or there to learn how to shoot?

If you're there to learn how to shoot, any rifle will do. Don't go for a score.

So Either AR all weekend or Mosin...AR for accuracy or Mosin for cheap ammo. Which one would you go with? Cheap ammo is important to me, I'm a broke guy...

[jeep45238]

The one you can afford to shoot all weekend

Toss a USGI websling onto the dog collar with a zip tie and you'll make it a lot easier when having to make sling adjustments.

Seriously, you'll learn all of the fundamentals with either rifle. The AR will make it easier to get all your shots off faster and more accurately, and not have to break position to work the action.

Don't get caught up in that though - 2 5's are worth more than 3 3's, so take your time, get in your rifleman's bubble, and fire your shots in a rifleman's cadence and by the numbers, you'll be fine


Roll with the M44 and let us know how it goes

[Cpt. MelonBuster]

The one you can afford to shoot all weekend

Toss a USGI websling onto the dog collar with a zip tie and you'll make it a lot easier when having to make sling adjustments.

Seriously, you'll learn all of the fundamentals with either rifle. The AR will make it easier to get all your shots off faster and more accurately, and not have to break position to work the action.

Don't get caught up in that though - 2 5's are worth more than 3 3's


Roll with the M44 and let us know how it goes

I think I will! Nika is going to get a workout.

[thelight]

Bolt actions at Appleseeds are definitely do-able, but you will be fighting the gun at times. I would lean to the AR for this reason.
You'll have fun and learn a lot either way, though. Don't forget to tell us how it went!

[jeep45238]

Bolt actions at Appleseeds are definitely do-able, but you will be fighting the gun at times. I would lean to the AR for this reason.
You'll have fun and learn a lot either way, though. Don't forget to tell us how it went!

It's not so much fighting - it's just a little harder to keep NPOA with a centerfire bolt action. With rimfires it's no problem, the bolt doesn't travel far enough to touch your face. With some centerfires, you need to remove your face from the stock - others, you simply need to rotate your head a little bit. Either one, no big deal.

At the last AS shoot I did, we had a lefty Rifleman (with a capital Rrrrr matey) shooting a right handed bolt gun with a scope he had to clear each time - and remove the stock from his shoulder pocket each time to work the action.

He just went nice and smooth, ignored the time, and shot. And he shot well



Run what ya brung, and bring what you can afford to shoot. You'll learn either way