What to carry what to leave

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What to carry what to leave

Post by corrsk » Wed May 28, 2014 4:53 am

After reading a lot of threads I've noticed that people are either bugging out with a firearm. Having served 9 years in the military and one combat your I feel that many are unprepared for actually having to carry a rifle with a combat load out of ammo ie 210 rounds. The weapon and ammo is going to easily weigh in around 11-15 pounds depending on the optics as accessories on your rifle. Personally if I were bugging out anything further than a 3-5 day journey on foot then the rifle wouldn't be coming with me. It would be stashed and I'd come back for it later if possible. If your traveling on foot then the longer your out there the better chance to draw attention to yourself with a rifle vs a pistol which can easily be covered.
The above are my thoughts for a battle rifle. Now if it's a 22lr rifle then that's another story. Many 22s are small and easy to conceal which removes the risk of drawing unwante attention. Don't get me wrong if feel better with my rifle. It could however attract more danger and if you have to go a very long distance that extra weight adds up fast and will take it's toll on you. If you have a Ruger 10/22 takedown for example you can carry that and a few hundred rounds and it will only weigh in around 7 pounds or so.

These are just my thoughts. Take them with a grain of salt.

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by corrsk » Wed May 28, 2014 4:58 am

To add on if your traveling 50 miles or less I'd say carry what you can. If it gets too heavy stash it in a weather proof container. You may be able to come back for it later.

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by gundogs » Wed May 28, 2014 7:47 am

If forced to bug out on foot then,obviously,something bad has happened.
One may be afoot longer then anticipated,so I would want to have a rifle for defense and hunting.
To me a pistol alone is inadequate

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Wed May 28, 2014 3:33 pm

gundogs wrote:If forced to bug out on foot then,obviously,something bad has happened.
Agreed, and in which case, planning to come back for something important seems like maybe not such a good idea. Particularly if you need a defensive rifle, because now you may have to fight your way back to it. It seems very counterproductive.

One may be afoot longer then anticipated,so I would want to have a rifle for defense and hunting.
To me a pistol alone is inadequate
In a non-mundane SHTF scenario (excluding a fairly local disaster--fire, etc), I am inclined to agree.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Kutter_0311 » Wed May 28, 2014 3:51 pm

Many consider 210 rounds to be overkill. Some consider it under.

Regardless of what you plan to take, you should be training to hump that shit NOW.

You should be training to USE that shit NOW.

My rifle is a game-getter as well as a fighting rifle, so I'll take it.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by ineffableone » Wed May 28, 2014 4:56 pm

I have considered if I take my rifle or not for awhile, and honestly that is a decision that can only be made at the time of having to bug out. To bring a long arm or not is something very condition dependent.

Something I will take if I take or leave my rifle is my Sammick Sage TD bow. The bow itself is fairly easy to pack into a pack being it breaks down into 3 parts. The only difficult part is the arrows, due to length and the fetching. I have been considering picking up some take down arrows to fix that issue, but it is not that big a deal yet for me to worry about. Bringing the bow gives me the ability to still have a hunting weapon, and a weapon that is low noise.

Your very right that a rifle is a lot of weight as is the ammo to make the rifle useful. Your also right that having one can actually cause conflicts. Though not having one can also make you an easy target for the less than moral out there.

Personally though, I will be looking for ways to take my rifle and the 1000 rounds I have set aside for SHTF for it. As others said if things are bad enough to make me bug out on foot, then I will likely want my rifle and ammo. So I have been looking at ways to carry more without over loading my back. Using a garden cart to haul gear, loading my gear on a bike to make it easier to move, using a hand truck even has merits, etc are all options I am considering to avoid being stuck with only on foot as an option if my vehicle is not usable.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by thrillbilly » Fri May 30, 2014 2:01 pm

I would leave my handguns before I left a rifle. In my terrain, a handgun would be mostly useless except as a secondary.

I choose popular calibers, so I don't HAVE to carry every round of ammo I will ever need. I will be able to resupply 5.56 or x39 around here.

Bugging out on foot is my last possible choice, I don't intend to even bugout with a vehicle...I have everything I need here. Only way Im leaving is due to fallout, or natural disaster. And I would be hauling tail in a 4x4 convoy not walking out.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by roscoe » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:01 am

Personally though, I will be looking for ways to take my rifle and the 1000 rounds I have set aside for SHTF for it. As others said if things are bad enough to make me bug out on foot, then I will likely want my rifle and ammo. So I have been looking at ways to carry more without over loading my back. Using a garden cart to haul gear, loading my gear on a bike to make it easier to move, using a hand truck even has merits, etc are all options I am considering to avoid being stuck with only on foot as an option if my vehicle is not usable.
There has been a lot of discussion of the tactical wheelbarrow. As long as you stick to streets or sidewalks, I guess this has merit. But I don't see that a rifle and 1000 rounds is viably portable without a vehicle.

For anything short of ZPAW, while afoot, I intend to be as discrete and mobile as possible, which means traveling light. A 9mm handgun and 50 rounds is my compromise, and my warm weather bugout load is under 30 pounds, which means I can move pretty fast, and for long periods of time. I am not aware of any emergency situation in the last 100 years in the US where a rifle was critical and a handgun insufficient, although I am willing to be wrong. For me, mobility is key, so I go light, and my 9mm is certainly effective out to 50 yards, which seems like it should be adequate for keeping folks at bay.

For ZPAW or a Somalia type scenario I would carry a 5.56 rifle, but even with that lightweight round I would have almost doubled my load weight. I think people are overly optimistic about what they can carry for long periods of time. Several times I have lived for 6 months or longer exclusively out of my pack, and I was never able to get it much below 70 pounds in the wilderness (much more in cold weather). Adding 20 pounds of metal would significantly degrade a person's ability to cover ground, increase the probability of joint injuries, and require a lot more calories over the long term. Just something to think about. I find myself wishing for a SUB 2000 in 5.7.

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by ineffableone » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:16 am

roscoe wrote:
Personally though, I will be looking for ways to take my rifle and the 1000 rounds I have set aside for SHTF for it. As others said if things are bad enough to make me bug out on foot, then I will likely want my rifle and ammo. So I have been looking at ways to carry more without over loading my back. Using a garden cart to haul gear, loading my gear on a bike to make it easier to move, using a hand truck even has merits, etc are all options I am considering to avoid being stuck with only on foot as an option if my vehicle is not usable.
There has been a lot of discussion of the tactical wheelbarrow. As long as you stick to streets or sidewalks, I guess this has merit. But I don't see that a rifle and 1000 rounds is viably portable without a vehicle.
I guess you never used a game cart to haul a deer out of the woods. There is plenty of ways to haul gear into the wilderness. But then the wilderness is not the only option is it. Roads, under powerlines, train tracks, and lot more offer the ability to make miles without having to bushwack your way through. If I am going off into the woods I will likely need those 1000 rounds for protection, as the woods will be filled with tons of starving people who thought they could survive off the land after watching a bunch of survival TV shows.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Sworbeyegib » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:57 am

I would say in about 99% of emergency scenarios, bugging in is a better option that bugging out. In about 99% of an actual bugging out scenario, most people will not be leaving their residences on foot, but rather in a vehicle of some sort, and packing heavy isn't a problem. In 99% of emergencies, you won't "need" a firearm, and if you choose to carry one, a handgun or most peoples daily CCW will fill that role. This of course depends on your personal bug out plan, and whether or not your focus of firearm is primarily on defense, hunting, or some combination of the two.

So the reality of an emergency bug out, on foot, and with imminent and obvious physical threats and danger that warrant a "combat" load is quite small when you consider the real life emergencies people should be preparing for. Some preppers seem to jump straight to the worse case scenario as the only option when showing off their gear. Its more fun that way, its flashier, and it is a lot less boring and more fun to talk about than showing your water storage or an emergency generator (not that we don't enjoy that as well).

Of course, a huge part of it is on you. Where you live, what your likely emergency is, and what you feel is the best plan of action. Some people live in a very rural area with a lot of space they can go, and very little people around. Some live in heavily populated cities or metropolitan areas nowhere near the "middle of nowhere". You have to plan accordingly.

A for most of my life midsized suburb town (30,000 people or so) tucked away far from the city (about as far away as you can get on an island), will virtually zero tourist activity. I lived on the edge of town, less than a mile away from the "bush" in one direction, less than 2 miles from the nearest designated emergency shelter, and 5 miles from the nearest military base. A few years ago I moved to downtown Honolulu, with almost 400,000 people, and tens of thousands of tourists on any given day. And much farther away from any sort of unpopulated area. I had to rethink and replan any possible bug out scenario accordingly.

In real life, people need to be adaptive and have levels of systems to accommodate whatever emergency they may be facing. Whether it just being displaced from your home because of a fire, a full scale violent uprising, and everything in between.

But if we didn't prepare for the unthinkable, we wouldn't be ZOMBIESQUAD. We are literally here because we want to be prepared for anything possible.

As for physical capabilities, well anyone on the internet can claim whatever they want as far as whether they think have or can handle it. Doing so in real life is much harder. I am a big advocator of using whatever gear you plan on relying for in an emergency on a regular basis to get used to it. I will admit that I could stand to do it more frequently. I can't exactly hump around a combat load and ruck down the street... but when I hike and get out into things I tend to pack excessively, fairly close to my BOB pack weight, because I have lots of gear I want to either test or play with.

And for the record, I hope nobody tries to correct me on my "99%" number I pulled out of thin air. I was just using it as a vague interpretation referring to the "majority off'.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:33 am

So the premise of this line of thinking is to save 4-8 pounds you trade an AR for a .22? I am gonna have to disagree on that being a good idea. A .22 rifle does not serve me much better than a handgun and in some ways is worse.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by tedbeau » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:36 am

This is exactly why I bought a 10-22 takedown, I can carry it in most any medium size duffle. It's fairly light weight. stainless and polymer so if I am out in the weather for an extended period I don't have to worry about keeping it dry and it's better than a sharp stick if I need to get food or defend myself. If at all possible I am taking my AK too though!

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Mikeyboy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:48 pm

We have been around this topic quiet a few times on ZS.

Pretty much there is a reasonable consensus that if its not a total "Mad Max" PAW event, most will bug out with a pistol and a few mags, and leave the AR at home, or just throw it in the trunk of the car, or in the back of the truck.

I agree with you, some preppers/survivalist have unrealistic expectations with their body's ability vs. gear and gun weight. I do a lot of ultralight/lightweight backpacking and long distance hiking and laugh at folks taking pictures of themselves in their living room wearing these heavy tactical BOB full of mostly useless crap and looking like a human pack mule. Don't get me wrong, if you are young, fit, and have previous experience carrying 80lb to 100lbs of guns, ammo and gear then be my guest. However I think the vast majority of people out there in the prepping world will have major problems just traveling a few miles with just 50lb of gear...which isn't much stuff when you break down that an average AR weighs 7lbs, a handgun 1lbs to 2lb, a loaded AR mags is 1lb each, and that is not even including 8lb for a gallon of water, 1.5lb for an MRE, etc. Also don't get me started with the folks with the 200 feet of paracord and the foot long survival knife and camp axe, but they only have 3 granola bars, a pack of ramen, a tarp, and a mylar survival blanket. If the SHTF most of these ill prepared heavy pack, heavy gun folks, are going to end up hurt, dead, or raiding homes along the way.

Personally my BOB is the same pack I use for multiday hikes (minus a small bag non hiking related emergency stuff like Cash, ID, important docs, etc). With a Gallon of water and 3 days of food, and fuel, my BOB weight is about 25lb. Even with that low of a pack weight I would not want to carry 210 rounds of ammo unless it was absolutely necessary. I rather have a patrol loadout, 4 mags

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Manimal2878 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:20 pm

corrsk wrote:After reading a lot of threads I've noticed that people are either bugging out with a firearm. Having served 9 years in the military and one combat your I feel that many are unprepared for actually having to carry a rifle with a combat load out of ammo ie 210 rounds. The weapon and ammo is going to easily weigh in around 11-15 pounds depending on the optics as accessories on your rifle.

I don't even think it is just the rifle and ammo. I don't think many people are prepared to carry their bug out bag period. I see people say,"well, I don't mind if it's 80 lbs, this is my INCH bag." Yeah right. More like an ITHT bag. (I'll Toss Half This once I have to carry it bag.)

One other thing I see, related to your post, is a lot of people think their military experience prepares them for carrying their huge load of stuff because they did it when they were in the service, I think they forget that was 10 years and 20 lbs ago, and when they did it in the service they had done months of basic training to get them in the shape to do so.

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Nick Adams » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:32 am

I picked up one of those jogging strollers, think that is what they are called, has the big wheels in the back. They are very common in the used market and can be bought for $10 or so.
I was panhandled by a guy with one and he said it was the best thing to use to carry your stuff in.
I looked for one that was sturdy with good wheels, folds up to of course.
Not going to push it up a mountain or through a swamp but works great for pavement or smooth ground. I loaded it up with about 60lb and was easy to push.
I thought about getting one of those little fold up wagons but I haven't came across any used ones and I think the stroller would be easier to use

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Nightmare Machine » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:43 pm

Well, I have a hierarchy of guns I would carry. If at all possible, I'll take my flagship rifle and handgun. If I have to, I'll just take the handgun, for concealability reasons.

Things I know I will not take (unless it's a truck-and-trailer bugout) is my shotguns. Too heavy and bulky for both guns and ammo if I have to carry them.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by ROCK6 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:34 am

Mikeyboy wrote: I agree with you, some preppers/survivalist have unrealistic expectations with their body's ability vs. gear and gun weight. I do a lot of ultralight/lightweight backpacking and long distance hiking and laugh at folks taking pictures of themselves in their living room wearing these heavy tactical BOB full of mostly useless crap and looking like a human pack mule.
Mikeyboy is spot on. My wife and I do some section hiking; close to ultra-light, but not ridiculous. My 8-10 day pack weight (food, fuel and 2-3 liters of water) is 32 pounds on average (my comfort load) and is geared toward 100 miles (AT-type terrain/trails) where we average 10-15 miles a day depending on the terrain and weather. I do pack a pistol in an HPG Kit Bag (included in the weight). Adding a rifle combat load would significantly reduce your mileage and extend your time.

We've seen numerous AT hikers who pack 50-70 pounds and all but a couple have called for cabs to bypass steep terrain or move at such slow paces that they cut their trip in half due to time and food. I think the other aspect is physical strain as well. I'm pretty much fine after 10-12 miles, no physical issues, but I've seen several drag into the shelter area a few hours after us and they are dead on their feet. Security isn't just a rifle and combat load; it's being alert, having constant situational awareness and being physically capable of acting even after a long days road-march or hike.

Yes, I’ve done the combat tour thing a few times and a combat load is vastly different. Thank God, I didn’t do any serious humping with it and most operations were traveling via helo or on wheels. Most overestimate their abilities. Go do some backpacking and practice your combat kit at a range where you can do some maneuvers. Even if I was forced to bug out on foot with my rifle kit, it most likely would be stashed in my larger pack and not carried unless it truly was a PAW environment. Having an accessible CCW is much more utilitarian and low profile to facilitate rapid, unimpeded movement to your destination. The longer you’re on foot the higher probability of becoming a targeted refugee, armed or not.

Most of my scenarios are designed around bugging home as that will be my safe-haven for 99% of the situations that could affect me. It does take some thorough mission analysis to assess the most likely threats and prioritize your planning around those vice the Mad Max scenario. I do plan to do patrolling around the property where a rifle comes in handy, but most situations that would force me to bug-home on foot would be avoiding people and in those initial stages where you definitely don’t want to attract attention.

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by Stercutus » Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:25 pm

Nick Adams wrote:I picked up one of those jogging strollers, think that is what they are called, has the big wheels in the back. They are very common in the used market and can be bought for $10 or so.
I was panhandled by a guy with one and he said it was the best thing to use to carry your stuff in.
I looked for one that was sturdy with good wheels, folds up to of course.
Not going to push it up a mountain or through a swamp but works great for pavement or smooth ground. I loaded it up with about 60lb and was easy to push.
I thought about getting one of those little fold up wagons but I haven't came across any used ones and I think the stroller would be easier to use
Should be a big improvement on the tactical wheelbarrow.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by BohemianPrepper » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:27 pm

200 something rounds is going to be a lot for the average person to carry who has not physically trained to carry the load. But I feel that it is necessary for everyone to carry as much ammunition as you can hump especially in a situation like this. A .22LR rifle is great, but you should train for the worst possible situation and train as though your enemy will be better equipped and better trained than you, so being able to hump a rifle with more ammo is always going to be a positive, not only for you, but for your group/family as well. :)
Last edited by BohemianPrepper on Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by BohemianPrepper » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:34 pm

Manimal2878 wrote:One other thing I see, related to your post, is a lot of people think their military experience prepares them for carrying their huge load of stuff because they did it when they were in the service, I think they forget that was 10 years and 20 lbs ago, and when they did it in the service they had done months of basic training to get them in the shape to do so.
I completely agree with you, as a veteran I can say I've been guilty of that mindset myself. I've recently started training again for longer road marches and carrying the pack that I will actually carry in case of a bad situation. :)

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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by 91Eunozs » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:08 am

Manimal2878 wrote:...a lot of people think their military experience prepares them for carrying their huge load of stuff because they did it when they were in the service. I think they forget that was 10 years and 20 lbs ago...
Man, if I had any space in my siggy block this would earn a place there. Definitely made the book of quotes to pass on to my son though.

Well said.

I usually start stories about my own fitness level by paraphrasing Abraham Lincoln: "Two knees and forty pounds ago..." :lol:

One advantage of being the old retired dude, now well into a second career is that I finally have the resources to offset some of the losses in physical capability I used to enjoy in my reckless youth.

Primarily, a well-stocked place to go in the first place, and hopefully enough wisdom to know when it's time to hit the road and just drive there instead of humping a bunch of gear by foot. We do have bikes that would be my first choice if driving isn't an option. I am seriously looking at that 1-wheel off road capable "Bob" trailer that we can pull behind a bike...left the tandem pull along kid bike trailer in Germany when we moved back to the States, but that thing could haul a lot of gear. Once pulled two 24-packs of bottled beer in those big old plastic milk crate racks, plus our 4-year-old (at the time) daughter, plus some other crap my wife wanted to bring, from our place to my buddy's house in a village 25 kilometers away! It was all on paved bike trails, but still...that load had to weigh close to 100#.

I like the idea of a jogging stroller too. Ironically just sold our last one in a garage sale now that the youngest still at home is about to turn 12; might look at picking up another one of those. Saw a cool collapsible wagon with solid rubber wheels at Costco today too...maybe that's an option. Didn't look very rugged though.

Another consideration is the cost per ounce for lightweight gear. I know I spend a lot more getting a rifle from 7 down to to 5# than a 10# rifle down to 7. A lot of people, including my CPA wife and my old flying buddy/financial advisor, give me grief for dumping hard earned cash into lighweight gear and SBR tax stamps. But I know I can't run 2 marathons in two weeks like I used to, and God knows I'm not gonna go far with an 80# ruck like I did when I was younger. What I can tell you though is that the extra expense for lightweight parts is money well spent...at least it is from my perspective over here in the ORF section.

No way I'd bring my 12#+ pig gun when I have a sub 5# SBR available in the same caliber...weighs less with optic and 60-rd drum mag than my ranch rifle with a 10-rd mag.

There was a thread here a couple years back asking what you would carry with XX ounces available for firearms. Can't recall exactly, but believe I wound up choosing a .22 pistol with suppressor and one 10-rd mag plus 50 loose rounds and a suppressed SBR chambered in 300BLK with two 30-rd mags but only loaded with 28 to hit the weight specified.

Can't see where where I'd choose anything different now except I've likely gained the ability to pack a few more rifle rounds (or food, or...well, whatever) due to adding capacity via (admittedly expensive) lightweight parts.

Have slowly started to get the wife and I back into fighting shape though. We're not entirely gone yet, but could definitely stand to spend more time on cardio and knock off a few pounds. Afterall, losing weight/staying in shape is one of those "free" preps that pays off every day...
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by CG » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:57 am

If y'all are talking about these wagons, I would recommend against it. We cratered one in less than a summer just going to lawn concerts with a smallish ice chest and chairs and to the park.

We now have something similar to this, but larger.
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by ManInBlack316 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:57 pm

Man, this is a little bit of a thread necro.

While I'm still working on getting myself back in shape, which the wife will be joining me in after our first child is born :clap: I don't see how carrying my personal "rifle" would be a problem.
While I have had my 16" midlength for two years now I think, I recently got my AR pistol and I'm in love. The AR pistol is the one I would carry if I had to leave, as much as I don't like the thought of leaving my rifle behind.
I don't see how a <6lbs AR, a minimalist 3 mag chest rig, two Pmags in the pack and probably around 100 rounds on stripper clips is that much more to carry in a SHTF situation where I'd be leaving on foot. We're talking somewhere around six pounds of weight added to my pack with the two Pmags and loose ammo, with the chest rig being worn on my chest and the AR pistol carried with a sling. I really can't envision many scenarios where I'm bugging out on foot, and most of those are ones where I'd want a "long arm". So yes, I'll take the extra 6 pounds in my pack plus the weight of chest rig and slung pistol if I'm bugging out on foot because an EMP hit and the MZBs are on the way, or the MZBs have burned the house and are closing in. And yes, I will be working my way up to carrying this weight in my pack because we should train to endure the worst situations if we can.
Additionally, many people have said to "stash the rifle". I'm not comfortable stashing rifles in the ground where a bunch of kids with no experience with firearms can dig it up. I'd rather it be stashed at home, preferably in a hidden safe.


The reason mine is a pistol and not an SBR is finances, CCW laws (as unlikely as that is to work as it should), and the fact that I regularly visit family in a state that does not allow SBRs.

Edit: And yes someone could argue for situations where the MZBs are not coming but I'm still bugging out on foot (wildfires combined with traffic jams come to mind). I'd argue that a BOB would be less useful than three days worth of field stripped MREs and hopefully up to $500 in cash to pay for a hotel (credit might actually be better because I've heard some hotels prefer credit for liability purposes). And I'll still pack my pistol because it's my responsibility to maintain security of my firearms and not leave them behind for looters to find in the aftermath of a fire.

roscoe
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Re: What to carry what to leave

Post by roscoe » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:14 am

So, actually, you are adding ~12 pounds to your load.

Well, all I can say is, try your full load, with shelter, water, food, and first aid kit over 20 miles/day for a long weekend or so and report back. There is a big difference between, say, a 40 pound pack and a 52 pound pack, especially if you are periodically running. All this talk about just train to carry more has a ceiling - even in good shape, once you add more metal to your load, you have to take something away. And that something might be important. Or it might make you more likely to get injured. Read about the gear left behind the Civil War columns as soldiers just couldn't haul it all.

Just as a side note, a rifle (and IMO, tactical gear in general) makes you a natural target for whatever 'authorities' happen to be around, whereas regular civilians without tactical gear are more likely to be ignored.

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