"It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I've read it several times. I'm not gonna call anyone out. I hate to post a supercilious (use that one in daily conversation for free "this guy's a prick" points) thread, because I hate reading them, but I've been tracking soem incidents, talking to some local cops. In reality, today it is like the Taliban is coming after you. Follow me, Cujo, to a world of wonderment and bad analogies!

Batman: We will, we can bring Gotham back
Jim Gordon: What about escalation?
Batman: Escalation?
Jim Gordon: We start carrying semi automatics, they buy automatics, we start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor piercing rounds...

And now you're actively thinking tactically about defending your home. Back In The Day, home defense was a dove gun and a couple shells of buck, or a handgun under the pillow. Now we have weapon lights, low light training, shoot/no shoot training, semi-automatics, backup mags. All of this is becoming mroe and more common. We have seen huge increases in the number of CCW permits in Florida, and personally I have helped more than my fair share of people better prepare for defending their home, and am currently talking to a local trainer (nobody you've heard of) about bringing a bit more gunfighting experience to some of his classes.

The big names in defensive firearms instruction have soemthing in common, for the most part. They were door kickers, life-takers, cops, military. More people are looking for military credentials in trainers, and more and more we're seeing defensive firearms copying military firearms. Partially it's because we have more people using those firearms but there's more to it than that.

Story time:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-5 ... eet-crime/

Mike Cutone is a Massachusetts state trooper, part of a special unit targeting gang crime in the city of Springfield.

He's also a Green Beret, who - after returning from Iraq - had an "aha moment" when he was talking to a gas station manager in Springfield.

Mike Cutone: Gang members would come in there, pull out a weapon, point it at employees or patrons, take what they want and walk out. No one was calling the Springfield Police and no one was calling the state police.

Lesley Stahl: What this community was dealing with was gangs. They are a criminal enterprise. How are they like insurgents in Iraq?

Mike Cutone: Insurgents and gang members both want to operate in a failed area, a failed community or a failed state. They know they can live off the passive support of the community, where the community is not going to call or engage the local police.

Barbieri and trooper Cutone took us to a housing project in that neighborhood, known as the North End.

Lesley Stahl: I heard that there were gang members on motorcycles with AK-47s on their backs, right out here-

John Barbieri: They were very well-organized. They had lookouts. They disappeared when the sector cars came.

Lesley Stahl: They were just riding right up here in front?

John Barbieri: They were establishing the fact that this was their territory and they were willing to fight to keep it.

See, I learned it the other way. The cops we had contracting with us as advisors in Afghanistan were being brought in from major crime units because the military was recognizing that the Taliban operates like a cartel or other criminal enterprise. They defend turf, the fight with others, they run drugs and guns for money, and above all else they do NOT want locals to resist. They will execute opponents, but they also believe firmly in propaganda campaigns, winning the community's support by trust. Anyone in central Florida who wants to hear about it can buy me a beer and I'll talk your ears off about it.

In the mean time, lets look at what that means for you. Look back to the earlier quote. Cellphones and GPS mean better response times. It becomes more feasible to use military-style tactics to enter, disable the inhabitants, and loot quickly. Better weapons, better training, and increasingly armor is being used by those doing the invading. Realistically, this means it's time to step up the tactics, step up the training, and do a gut-check.

This:


is much less likely then this:

(Above image was recovered from a bust of a "small" Santa Ana gang a few years back, http://www.ocregister.com/news/gang-168 ... apons.html)

[TacAir]

In a south-side Chicago neighborhood, it starts as mere child’s play. A toddler’s tiny hands grow into tattoo-marked fingers depicting gang signs—such as an upside-down pitchfork or a “K” for killer. A lullaby morphs into vulgar “gangsta” rap about sex, drugs and guns. Learning ABCs changes into mastering special slang words with hidden messages. Childish scribbles hanging on a refrigerator become city walls covered in lewd graffiti.

Soon the game turns more dangerous. A secret invitation leads to a brutal initiation beating, and selling candy for school to trafficking crack. School buddies grow into drive-by partners inside a car with tinted windows, automatic rifles in hand.

Before the young player knows it, he is growing up too soon, trapped in a world of hustling, criminality, secretive behavior, aggression, lies, guns, drugs, violence, anger, hatred, distrust, joblessness and abuse, where one’s “respect” is all that matters—and disrespect results in death. It is as though he is caught in a virtual game in which “bad guys” become “good guys,” and the only way of escape is to kill those around him.

While such a violent real-life “game” is incomprehensible to most, for the 1.4 million men and women in America’s 33,000 gangs, it is the ultimate test of survival.

Nowhere is this more prevalent than on the streets of Chicago. By October 27, 2012, the Windy City had registered 436 murders, largely a result of gang violence—surpassing 2011’s homicide total.

“A splintering of traditional gangs into smaller factions—known as crews or cliques—with ever-younger members desperate to prove their tough-guy credentials is fuelling a murder rate that makes swathes of Chicago more lethal than Afghanistan,” The Telegraph stated.

“Even as violent crime has decreased in cities such as New York and Los Angeles, the murder rate soared here by 38 per cent in the first six months of the year. There were 259 murders in that period, with another 18 so far in July.

“‘This is a block-to-block war here, a different dynasty on every street,’ said a dreadlocked young man heavily inked in gang tattoos who calls himself ‘Killer’.”

CBS News stated that in Chicago it is “like Beirut was in the 70s…It’s war.” Fox News called it a “city under siege.” ABC News called it a “war zone.”

According to NBC Chicago, among what are considered first-world cities, Chicago has the highest murder rate in the world. It has a 19.4 murder rate per 100,000 people, making it rank higher than even the metropolises of Mexico City and Sao Paolo.

Today, over 100,000 “gangbangers” roam Chicago’s streets in 625 different groups. Police report that currently around 223 ongoing gang conflicts exist. Due to a “no snitching” culture, over 70 percent go unsolved.

Yet the Windy City is just a microcosm of America’s growing gang problem. Across the nation, hundreds of thousands of young men and women are caught up in gangs. In some areas, this lethal game is the only world they know.

Authorities and those involved often blame poor education, a bad economy, poverty, joblessness, distrust of the government, and lack of opportunity to explain why gangs are becoming more prevalent. But the root cause and ultimate solution to this multifaceted problem comes back to something much more fundamental.

AND

While the underlying motives remain the same, today’s gangs are worse—much worse—than they were in previous decades.

Consider “flash mobs,” also known as “wilding.” Large groups of youths enter stores, taking anything and everything they desire. Multiple hundreds of these instances have occurred over the past three years.

This phenomena is a classic “in your face” move from young thugs to the larger society. The implicit message is “this is our store, this is our street, we will take whatever we want—and you cannot stop us.” It is one of the most blatant forms of lawlessness seen in “civilized” society.

In addition to such violence within gangs, increasingly bolder, more brazen criminals are breaking the “thin blue line” that separates civilized society from anarchy. Of course, this thin blue line is the police. As the most visible representation of government, they are the proverbial “canary in the coal mine.”

According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, firearms-related fatalities of police officers increased 70 percent from 2008 to 2011. While such deaths are not unprecedented, they are an indication of things to come. Brash gang members armed with assault weapons are shaping the criminal landscape of the future.

For example, in June 2009, an operation targeting “Sureno” gang members resulted in 36 arrests and 69 confiscated firearms. Authorities seized 14 assault rifles, 22 handguns, 16 shotguns and 17 rifles, including a Barrett. 50-caliber sniper rifle.

The lethality of these weapons is telling. The National Gang Threat Assessment warned: “Gang members are acquiring high-powered, military style weapons and equipment which poses a significant threat because of the potential to engage in lethal encounters with law enforcement and civilians.”

Combating brazen and bold gang members will result in much more “militarized” policing—meaning officers have to fight back using armored vehicles and assault weapons!

Heavier, more lethal weapons by gangs result in an “arms race with criminals.” Police will literally be forced to “arm up.”

Truly, it has become an all-out war.

(from a Nov, 2012 article)

Other articles pint up the same thing. Big cities are a bad place to live.

[feedthedog]

Other articles pint up the same thing. Big cities are a bad place to live.

I must respectfully disagree. My big city, Atlanta, has never been the poster child for good order, but we are at the 2nd lowest point in 50 years for homicides. Most city dwellers are pretty involved with the local cops, politicians, and prosecutors. We even have our local prosecutor posting to the neighborhood facebook page. That doesn't mean that we don't still have a crime problem, but I do think that there is a bit too much bad press and not enough good press.

While quality training, decision making, equipment, etc are certianly important, I don't think you can forget the other things you can do to make your hood safer. Get involved with the police, local government, neighborhood watch. While you are at it, make your house hard enough to break into that the bad guys will go somewhere else.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Other articles pint up the same thing. Big cities are a bad place to live.

I must respectfully disagree. My big city, Atlanta, has never been the poster child for good order, but we are at the 2nd lowest point in 50 years for homicides. Most city dwellers are pretty involved with the local cops, politicians, and prosecutors. We even have our local prosecutor posting to the neighborhood facebook page. That doesn't mean that we don't still have a crime problem, but I do think that there is a bit too much bad press and not enough good press.

While quality training, decision making, equipment, etc are certianly important, I don't think you can forget the other things you can do to make your hood safer. Get involved with the police, local government, neighborhood watch. While you are at it, make your house hard enough to break into that the bad guys will go somewhere else.

Quite. I disagree with the sentiment that it's just big cities. That's one step shy from "just move" and really isn't on par with where I'd like the thread to go. Google "revenue men" or meth and see how widespread organized crime gets. Meth is organized crime, although it might be poorly organized.

Absolutely agree with the "get involved" part.

[Fifties Dad]
Son, you can't just run from your problems. Bullies can eb beaten, you just have to band together and stand-up to them. Now I'm not saying you go looking for a fight wherever you can. Let the authorities know, and resolve with your classmates to not let each other be bullied.[/Fifties Dad]

Neighborhood watches and police cooperation are a part of this, but they can't do anything when someone is actually -IN- your home. I'd recommend starting from the bedroom and working your way outward. Figure out what your response is which each step outward. Once you have your in-home response (seriously it shouldn't take but a day) then you move outward. You can prepare your home in a fraction of the time it will take to affect change on a community, but both are equally important.

[Vicarious_Lee]

This is not a Big City Problem anymore. Meth, and also narcotics like Oxycontin have made their way well into the countryside. I'm sure Rev can expound on the problems that Appalachia isn't supposed to be having...

[TacAir]

Other articles pint up the same thing. Big cities are a bad place to live.

I must respectfully disagree. My big city, Atlanta, has never been the poster child for good order, but we are at the 2nd lowest point in 50 years for homicides. Most city dwellers are pretty involved with the local cops, politicians, and prosecutors. We even have our local prosecutor posting to the neighborhood facebook page. That doesn't mean that we don't still have a crime problem, but I do think that there is a bit too much bad press and not enough good press.

While quality training, decision making, equipment, etc are certianly important, I don't think you can forget the other things you can do to make your hood safer. Get involved with the police, local government, neighborhood watch. While you are at it, make your house hard enough to break into that the bad guys will go somewhere else.

I'm confused.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-At ... orgia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
shows violent crime at a rate 300%+ greater than the US average.
Is it better than it used to be - I can see that, murders are down from 143 (1999) to just 89 (2011)
but I still see this -

Violent crime rate in 2011
Atlanta:
734.2
U.S. Average:
213.6

I live in a real paradise as well
Violent crime rate in 2011
Anchorage:
465.4
U.S. Average:
213.6

Anchorage and Fairbanks are #1 and 2 in the US for the rape rate (per 10K residents)

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Other articles pint up the same thing. Big cities are a bad place to live.

I must respectfully disagree. My big city, Atlanta, has never been the poster child for good order, but we are at the 2nd lowest point in 50 years for homicides. Most city dwellers are pretty involved with the local cops, politicians, and prosecutors. We even have our local prosecutor posting to the neighborhood facebook page. That doesn't mean that we don't still have a crime problem, but I do think that there is a bit too much bad press and not enough good press.

While quality training, decision making, equipment, etc are certianly important, I don't think you can forget the other things you can do to make your hood safer. Get involved with the police, local government, neighborhood watch. While you are at it, make your house hard enough to break into that the bad guys will go somewhere else.

I'm confused.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-At ... orgia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
shows violent crime at a rate 300%+ greater than the US average.
Is it better than it used to be - I can see that, murders are down from 143 (1999) to just 89 (2011)
but I still see this -

Violent crime rate in 2011
Atlanta:
734.2
U.S. Average:
213.6

I live in a real paradise as well
Violent crime rate in 2011
Anchorage:
465.4
U.S. Average:
213.6

Anchorage and Fairbanks are #1 and 2 in the US for the rape rate (per 10K residents)

Many areas are seeing violent crime rise as crime in general goes down. Guess what that means.

[Ten Eight]

I had a long post written out, but I've edited and re-written it twice, because it's largely political. I'll stick with some shorter, hopefully less political points.

Regarding gang banger violence, it all starts with the parents, parenting effectively, disciplining your kids, and not being an enabler when it comes to the thug culture. Fix the inner city family, you fix the root of the problem. This, however, is impossible.

Regarding gang tactics- Gangs operate more efficiently now,.. almost guerilla army like, thanks to the tactical knowledge that can be gained from the Internet, as well as from training that gang members who have returned from serving in the military provide. I see this in the very sophisticated home invasions that occur now. More and more of these invasions are not just random kids trying to pull shit. These groups will break into your house to see what you have first but not take anything, they'll scout you, watch your house, duct tape Boost cell phones under your car to track you, they'll get their buddy who works at the att (whatever) phone store to give them your phone records, etc...thenn they'll break in again. They do their research and detective work. It depends on what they want whether they break into your home while you're home or not. If they want in the big safe and don't want the headache or noise of using tools, they'll break in and burn your wife with an iron until you open it. Bottom line, gangs are "smarter" now, because it's so easy nowadays to research your target.

Some tips that help:

1. Be armed, if you can. As much of the time, as is feasible. It might've been Jeff Cooper who said the following, but it was something to the fact that if you're licensed to carry a gun, and you step outside without one, just say baaaaaaa like a sheep.

2. If you have a garage, clean that shit out and park your cars in there. Back your car in. Don't leave your garage door open so people can see valuables, what type of car you drive, plate numbers, etc. Parking the car in the garage makes hit hardr to guess your work schedule too. If you like to keep your garage open, get one of those motorized roll down screens that cover the door. Zip tie your garage door opener so people can't fish a hanger through the weather striping and pull the door release. LOCK THE FRIGGING DOOR GOING INTO THE HOUSE.

2. Know intimately well the vehicles that frequent your neighborhood.

3. Stay out of known bad areas where you live. Go the long way around if need be.

4. Harden your house the fuck up. First place to start? Sell your 3rd AR, take the money and install Medeco or equivalent expensive, baller, hard to pick locks everywhere. Buy a solid core interior door for your master bedroom and add a deadbolt. Do it to all your doors if you've got the coin. Most interior doors are hollow core, but you can get most of the same style in solid core. Toss all the bullshit Home Depot locks ..the cheap Kwikset, Schlage type stuff. Gang members pick locks now. Thanks Youtube. Cover your deadbolt so it's hard to cut/smash. Buy a cheap land line phone or old cell phone for every room. Your cell phone does you no good when your hiding away from where your phone is plugged in and charging. Keep valuables out of sight of windows. Lock up your extra credit cards , checks etc. Learn how to encrypt and secure your computers, and make sure laptops tablets are put away before you leave the house.


5. Loose lips sink ships. Don't talk up what you own to everybody. Make sure your spouse understands this. When your s/o is yapping with her/his friend about her/his new iWhatever at her/his friends house or the OMG THE NEW GUNZ HE/SHE JUST GOT, and his or her banger son overhears, tells his hombres, and you end up coming home one day to a cut open safe. Yes, this does happen. This is the toughest thing to get right, because you can't control what people say, especially when you're not around.

[Ten Eight]

Other articles pint up the same thing. Big cities are a bad place to live.

I must respectfully disagree. My big city, Atlanta, has never been the poster child for good order, but we are at the 2nd lowest point in 50 years for homicides. Most city dwellers are pretty involved with the local cops, politicians, and prosecutors. We even have our local prosecutor posting to the neighborhood facebook page. That doesn't mean that we don't still have a crime problem, but I do think that there is a bit too much bad press and not enough good press.

While quality training, decision making, equipment, etc are certianly important, I don't think you can forget the other things you can do to make your hood safer. Get involved with the police, local government, neighborhood watch. While you are at it, make your house hard enough to break into that the bad guys will go somewhere else.

I'm confused.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-At ... orgia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
shows violent crime at a rate 300%+ greater than the US average.
Is it better than it used to be - I can see that, murders are down from 143 (1999) to just 89 (2011)
but I still see this -

Violent crime rate in 2011
Atlanta:
734.2
U.S. Average:
213.6

I live in a real paradise as well
Violent crime rate in 2011
Anchorage:
465.4
U.S. Average:
213.6

Anchorage and Fairbanks are #1 and 2 in the US for the rape rate (per 10K residents)

Many areas are seeing violent crime rise as crime in general goes down. Guess what that means.

Thisthisthisthishis!!!!!. I know I'm just some dood on the webz, versus "statistics" but crime isn't really "down" it's just going more and more unreported, for reasons I won't get into. The types of crime are changing. Mostly more violent crime, as criminals are aware now of what they can get away with, due to less police prescense and a marked increase in the intimidation and snitch culture.

Crime is not going down, it's just going underground. It's more violent, AND IT'S UNDER FRIGGITY FRIGGIN REPORTED.

Get preppin' people. You think there are animals out there now.... just wait until they wake up, go to the grocery store one day and there's no food. And their EBT card doesn't work.

Hide your kids, hide your wife lol.

[KentsOkay]

This is the part where I am thankful for living in a quiet rural area outside of Austin.

Just watched Gangster Squad. That and Robocop need to get back into action, except I get Stone instead of Gooseling.

[Aikibiker]

am currently talking to a local trainer (nobody you've heard of) about bringing a bit more gunfighting experience to some of his classes.

Is his first name Wade?

[Rev]

This is not a Big City Problem anymore. Meth, and also narcotics like Oxycontin have made their way well into the countryside. I'm sure Rev can expound on the problems that Appalachia isn't supposed to be having...

Other than the pills, pot, meth, related violence, and bone crushing poverty rural Appalachian life can be rather idyllic. Seriously, it's either perfect or terrible, and often side by side.

Sent from the barbarian wilderness.

[phil_in_cs]

I had a long post written out, but I've edited and re-written it twice, because it's largely political. I'll stick with some shorter, hopefully less political points.

Thank you. The why's and wherefores don't matter to us as preppers nearly as much as the 'what to do about it' item. Stick to 'what to do', TTP, etc and we're all good.

Something to be very aware of, especially in semi rural areas like mine, is unoccupied houses. Those can quickly become meth labs. With the economy down, folks walk away from a mortgage, or get foreclosed, and the house sits vacant for quite a while. That's an attractive item to ne'er do wells.

If you see a for sale sign in your area, give it a look and make sure someone is still living there.

[Gingerbread Man]

Just so I'm tracking doc, you're saying there are valid reasons for a civilian to own MSRs? I got kind of lost in that long post.
If you're saying criminals are not what they used to be, are more violent and brutal which, to me means, civilians should have MSRs, I concur. The tactics have evolved past a lever action and bullseye lantern, I agree.

[iron_angel]

You know, in light of all this, maybe owning some body armor that could be rapidly donned actually does make a little bit of sense. Though more than that, TacAir's suggestion about fortifying makes a lot of sense, especially if you own your home. If you rent, ask your landlord. Very often they won't be willing to pay to do it - but won't be averse to letting you do it, if you want to shell out the cash. Don't expect to get paid back for it, or to get to keep the improvements when you leave, but you can often still fortify rented houses.

Try to avoid sliding glass doors. For security they fucking suck. Adding security film helps, bars between the panes of glass help, locks and bars help, but none of them turn the sliding door into a strong point - just less weak. If you can combine that with a sliding security screen outside, an alarm, and nothing of value visible through the doors, that helps more. If you're having a house built, omit them and do something else. French doors can be made more resilient. Consider armoring your door jambs to make them harder to kick in. Be aware that the typical metal exterior door is made of really thin steel (or only slightly thicker aluminum) - if you can afford it get one that sucks less.

I'm not sure about the value of having locks on different keys. That reduces vulnerability to a stolen or copied key, but not to bumping, picking or forcing. I honestly have no idea how common breakins using stolen or copied keys are.

More on the firearms direction - I wonder if there are any stats about what kind of armor gangbangers tend to be using? I don't expect too many are wearing armor that can defeat rifles, but is there any evidence one way or the other? This could make a pretty strong argument against shotguns or PCCs, and (less likely) could make a case in favor of 6.8SPC or 7.62NATO, or in the eternal AR ammo debate. (Does M855 really do any better against body armor?)

[MaconCJ7]

More on the firearms direction - I wonder if there are any stats about what kind of armor gangbangers tend to be using? I don't expect too many are wearing armor that can defeat rifles, but is there any evidence one way or the other? This could make a pretty strong argument against shotguns or PCCs, and (less likely) could make a case in favor of 6.8SPC or 7.62NATO, or in the eternal AR ammo debate. (Does M855 really do any better against body armor?)

I think it's safe to assume they have IIIa or IV level body armors. They're not hard to come by, and very cheap when stolen. Not to mention stuff that's "lost" by soldiers, gang banger or otherwise. Pistol plates are even more common, and easier to conceal. Probably a very high likelihood of that, considering their obvious enemy is the police, whom still use pistols as primary.

I like this topic, in that it brings to conversation a little talked about threat. Home invasions are on the rise, and everyone is a target. Swift violent action is the key to their success. Anything you can do to impede their forward progress while increasing your response time is going to increase your survivability factor. Anything that gives you a chance to take a defensive posture while calling in the authorities is a good thing. Hardened interior doors, fortified exterior points of entry, immediate available comms and defensive tools.

[Ten Eight]

You know, in light of all this, maybe owning some body armor that could be rapidly donned actually does make a little bit of sense. Though more than that, TacAir's suggestion about fortifying makes a lot of sense, especially if you own your home. If you rent, ask your landlord. Very often they won't be willing to pay to do it - but won't be averse to letting you do it, if you want to shell out the cash. Don't expect to get paid back for it, or to get to keep the improvements when you leave, but you can often still fortify rented houses. Especially with all the abandoned houses in some large urban and built up counties (Palm Beach is #1 or #2 in the nation in foreclosures), you could hold somebody ransom just down the street, and their family wouldn't know it. RG makes a good point about abandoned houses...they're like magnets for all sorts of bad stuff.

Try to avoid sliding glass doors. For security they fucking suck. Adding security film helps, bars between the panes of glass help, locks and bars help, but none of them turn the sliding door into a strong point - just less weak. If you can combine that with a sliding security screen outside, an alarm, and nothing of value visible through the doors, that helps more. If you're having a house built, omit them and do something else. French doors can be made more resilient. Consider armoring your door jambs to make them harder to kick in. Be aware that the typical metal exterior door is made of really thin steel (or only slightly thicker aluminum) - if you can afford it get one that sucks less.

I'm not sure about the value of having locks on different keys. That reduces vulnerability to a stolen or copied key, but not to bumping, picking or forcing. I honestly have no idea how common breakins using stolen or copied keys are.

More on the firearms direction - I wonder if there are any stats about what kind of armor gangbangers tend to be using? I don't expect too many are wearing armor that can defeat rifles, but is there any evidence one way or the other? This could make a pretty strong argument against shotguns or PCCs, and (less likely) could make a case in favor of 6.8SPC or 7.62NATO, or in the eternal AR ammo debate. (Does M855 really do any better against body armor?)

At least down here in the tip of the U.S's dick, it's a lot of smuggled AK variant stuff from various South American militaries. Mostly small arms/ammo, but other hardware does pop up. I'd almost say more of the arms/ammo is smuggled into Miami then is stolen. As for armor, it's mostly plates/carrier stolen from the trunk of an officer's patrol car, or weird flak jacket type soft armor from the aforementioned various militaries. The larger, sophisticated gangs have people with clean records who will buy stuff for the gang that may not be able to be owned by felons (body armor, etc.). I've just heard about it, I've not seen that personally.

I think as times get tougher, you'll see a turn towards the kidnap/ransom bit which is so popular in Mexico and other Latin America countries. Ferfal talks about seeing this in Argentina when he was there, and it already happens in some of our border communities with Mexico.

Be armed, stay grey man, harden your home, be careful who you invite over and show around your house, etc. Common sense stuff really. Don't be paranoid, just think a bit.

[Browning 35]

More on the firearms direction - I wonder if there are any stats about what kind of armor gangbangers tend to be using? I don't expect too many are wearing armor that can defeat rifles, but is there any evidence one way or the other? This could make a pretty strong argument against shotguns or PCCs, and (less likely) could make a case in favor of 6.8SPC or 7.62NATO, or in the eternal AR ammo debate. (Does M855 really do any better against body armor?)

I don't have any stats, but I know what the guys back home generally ended up with if they had any at all.

It generally consisted of the out of date/expired pistol rated vests that you see for between $30-$100 at pawn shops and army/navy surplus stores.

OMC's were the exception, they usually bought new shit.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Just so I'm tracking doc, you're saying there are valid reasons for a civilian to own MSRs? I got kind of lost in that long post.
If you're saying criminals are not what they used to be, are more violent and brutal which, to me means, civilians should have MSRs, I concur. The tactics have evolved past a lever action and bullseye lantern, I agree.

That was a portion of it. More the point was that I keep seeing posters I can respect in other portions of the board discount military-style tactics and equipment because "I'm not going to war." That, combined with some local news, and a conversation I had with a couple of Fella Bella Woodsmen the other day, plus some of that other thread spawned this. Ideally we get some good discussion about tactics and gear. Knowing me, I'll probably bump now and again with some similar stories, ideally with more specifics about OpFor gear and tactics.

am currently talking to a local trainer (nobody you've heard of) about bringing a bit more gunfighting experience to some of his classes.

Is his first name Wade?

No. My neighbor is named Wade, but probably not the same Wade, unless he's your dad, in which case I owe you a beer next time you're stateside. This guy is even more small-time, mostly teaching "Okay, you have a gun, what's next" classes. Very basic.

RE: armor. The local-ish doorkickers I talked to said it was mostly soft armor. PAGST vests, stolen Second Chance gear, etc. Shotgun slug, especially a hardened shank sabot would run on through just fine, if you're on a budget. XM193 tends to do fine against soft armor, and has been known to run through level III plates, in particular the steel plates commonly sold. I'll snag in cognito pics at the next gun show of the guys walking around selling level III kits with plates for $200-$300 bucks. When your stolen/illegally imported AK cost you $1500, $300 for armor ain't a big deal.

So what are the options?
Well, M855/193 will do alright against soft armor, as will shotgun slugs, even 20ga. I'm starting to see more guys getting the wifey a 20ga, in particular gals who are already competent with a firearm and jsut want something with more oomph and less recoil. Against level III plates, you change how you aim. Same goes for level IV plates, because unless you have dragunove or Barret next to your bed, you aren't getting through that. Now we're getting into some really valuable stuff.

Drills: The Mozambique/Miami/Failure to stop is ubiquitous. Double-tap COM, follow up with a head or groin hit. Okay, but if it's armor you're worried about, you're really only getting one-shot in something vital. Use this drill with a buddy. Multiple targets is best, especially if you have a buddy call out that a target wasn't stopped. Then you move into...

Alternative action: Inital shots failed. Two rounds to the head, two rounds to the upper groin. If you can't see the groin, aim high on the inside of the thigh. If that fails:

Alternative Stop/Non-Standard-Response: Shoot them in the head. A lot. Attempt to detach it from the body. Usually 4-6 rounds to the head after another attempt failed.

Failing that, look where the really vulnerable parts are and shoot them. Don;t get sucked into dumping a mag COM. Also remember that surviving a gunfight has less to do with killing everyone else than it does staying alive. Use cover, concealment, and know the difference. A bedside plate carrier wouldn't be a bad investment. All I have right now is a spare SPC, and I'm looking into replacing it with a lower-profile rig that's easier to put on.

[Ten Eight]

$1500 for a stolen AK? They go for $200 down here I guess the gougers have hit that market too lol.


Sometimes I wish guns could talk and tell you what they've seen and done, and the journey they took. It's neat seeing (more hearing)of some of the stuff that turns up. I would like to know how that gang mentioned above acquired a Barrett:shock:.

These gangs are like little armies, just waiting for some sort of chaos as their excuse to start literally fighting for control whatever it is they want. It's not just gang on gang, but breaks down into one race not liking another as well as major reason for violence.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

$1500 for a stolen AK? They go for $200 down here

Sometimes I wish guns could talk and tell you what they've seen and done, and the journey they took.

I'll ask the O-town guys next time I see them, but one made it sound that that was the going rate for one with a giggle switch.

[Browning 35]

RE: armor. The local-ish doorkickers I talked to said it was mostly soft armor. PAGST vests, stolen Second Chance gear, etc. Shotgun slug, especially a hardened shank sabot would run on through just fine, if you're on a budget. XM193 tends to do fine against soft armor, and has been known to run through level III plates, in particular the steel plates commonly sold. I'll snag in cognito pics at the next gun show of the guys walking around selling level III kits with plates for $200-$300 bucks. When your stolen/illegally imported AK cost you $1500, $300 for armor ain't a big deal.

The thing is most gangbangers aren't running $1,500 worth of guns. Or 1,500 worth of anything for that matter except for maybe their car. For all the Scarface posters on their walls most are running cheap guns.

Most of what I've seen are High Points, Loricins, Jennings, Cobra Arms, Ruger P85's/89's/95's and Glock 9's. For long guns it's SKS's, AK's, pump shotguns and a whole slew of .22's. Anything that shoots a hole and that's cheap.

$300 would be a significant investment for these guys. More about what's inexpensive and available right there and then.

[Gingerbread Man]

On "I'm not worried about the Taliban!" I have a blanket response, what difference does it make to be cut by a Blood or a Taliban? What difference does it make to be shot by a MS13 or an AQ member? If the local methheads kick down my door or a Russian Spetznaz, why should my reaction be different? Oh, wait, it's not the taliban and go back to the couch?

My biggest beef with the AR-15 crowd is that lack of training for interaction on the street. Home invasions are rare, street interactions are not. Oh, I carry my Glock 19 and my folder! Welp, great me too (actually a Glock 26) but you have to train avoidance, you have to train your draw and hand to hand. Sorry, while the Taliban is a minor threat to me the local drugged out douche is a greater threat. You can't out draw a drawn weapon, you have to train defense against this. But I'm not expecting this to change. Oh well.

[Ten Eight]

You still get your junk pistols, but I would say they're not a huge percentage of what's out there. It depends on how well the gang is financed I guess. You'll see batches of the same pistol from time to time, like lately those S&W Sigma 40 that you can buy on sale for $399 or so. Maybe it's one crew stealing a bunch, and distributing them around. But yea, lots of bullshit moddedguns like archangeled 10/22s, etc.

A quick don plate carrier bedside would be helpful. I think it's more important to have concealable armor that you can wear around town should you still have to go work, etc. if society falls into a Ferfal Argentina type scenario.

Securing your garage is a big deal. Lock and harden your interior door from the garage to the house. Don't leave valuables laying around, at least lock them up. The pull the emergency door release technique is very popular. Lock your cars inside the garage. I go so far as to keep my insurance info locked up in the pistol safe I have cabled to my seat so if my car is broken into away from home they can't get my address. Keep your clicker on your keychain not in your car. You can buy key fob remotes to replace your big clickers. Criminals drive mall parking lots looking for clickers in visors. They get inside, take the clicker, and note the address on the insurance info. Secure this stuff! Buy one of those small lockable pistol safes to keep your info inside your car safe, should you feel you need to lock stuff up. If I'm at the park running, I lock up my Glock in one safe, and my wallet, phone, keys, insurance info in another other. I take an extra spare car key and safe key with me.

Edit: A slight tangent thought I had after reading the how much ammo do you have thread, but all you guys who keep a ton of ammo/magazines in your house, and don't lock it up, you've become a resupply point for criminals if they happen to break in and find it. They may not take any or a lot of it now, but THEY NOW KNOW WHERE THEY CAN GET IT. Please, please put some sort of barrier between criminals and the stuff you don't need close at at hand all the time. At least get one of those cheap Stackon safes to pile all your ammo and magazines in. Lock up your NFA stuff when it's not being used. I only keep one rifle and pistol at home outside of my work stuff (not counting a super hidden cheap handgun or two I don't mind losing) . Try not to keep all your firearm eggs in one Kwickset secured basket so to speak.