ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

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ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:29 am

Posted this on a firearms forum in my state, also hoping to get info from those here.

I found out today that my pre-paid legal plan from work will not cover all of the possible sitautions from using your firearm for defensive purposes.
I contacted my insurance company (State Farm) and asked for a quote for a liability policy. After reading some stuff on other forums I found that people said to get very specific wording in the policy to cover your ass.

My agent didn't know what to say when I asked for this and said that he didn't even know if State Farm would do this in CA. So sounds like from what I'm hearing the answer is NO.

Also, there are some companies out there that offer purely ccw insurance with limits usually not exeeding 250k of coverage. I'm hoping to find tips on companies or policy info for those with an 'umbrella' policy that has wording to cover liability when defending yourself with a firearm.

Questions:
1. What's the wording that you made sure was in the policy?
2. Who do you have a policy with? And what is the coverage amounts?

So far my find is to make sure the policy says: “Bodily injury or property damage resulting from the use of reasonable force by an “insured” to protect persons or property". My concern is woudl an insurance company try to get out of this by making a claim that a defensive action was not 'reasonable force'?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by nimdabew » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:15 am

Get a good self defense lawyer on retainer and ask him.
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by raptor » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:29 am

Most insurance companies will not cover you unless you get a rider on a commercial liability policy for armed guards. Even then the scope of protection is limited to lawful acts within the your scope of employment. In other words is you are indicted for the act....no or very limited coverage is available to the shooter. The business location will likely have coverage but not the shooter.

There is as a general policy very limited coverage for intentional acts by a policy holder.

For instance if your commercial building has armed guards you should have a rider for this coverage. If an armed guard lawfully shoots a felon, the policy holder and everyone named by the policy (the guard usually is not named) is covered for this act.

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:05 pm

Thanks for the responses. I've got pre-paid legal that will cover most all things but ccw related issues are a bit different and not completely covered.

I have seen there are a few policies out there. For example AAA has an umbrella policy that covers self defense acts but you have to have both auto and home owners with them to quality. Since I'm selling my house back in FL, I don't qualify (the house will be gone in a couple of weeks).

There are ccw specific options out there like
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/member ... er_service" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But hoping to hear from peeps that actually have a policy and why they chose it over the other options.

Here in CA there's no laws protecting you from lawsuits from a criminal's family such as there are in other states (my previous state had some loopholes but for the most part if you justifiably defend yourself with reasonable force, you're pretty safe). Just want to make sure if I did have to defend myself, I wouldn't be living out of a cardboard box afterwards. :)

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by raptor » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:25 pm

Thanks for the links. A little more research turned up this program offered by the NRA. I was not aware of this offering and

http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/about.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have read the policy offered here and I am comfortable with the coverage and exclusions. The limits are low for liability but again it is better than nothing.

Key take away is that you have lawfully own AND possess the firearm used.




7. A. LEGALLY POSSESSED FIREARM:
COVERAGE.
Underwriters will pay on behalf of the “Individual
Insured Member” all sums within the LIMITS OF
LIABILTY set forth under Insuring Agreement 1. C.
in the Notice of Insurance, which the “Individual
Insured Member” shall become legally obligated to
pay as “damages” excess over and above any
other valid and collectible insurance because of
(i) “bodily injury” or
(ii) “property damage”
caused by the use of a “legally possessed firearm”
by the “Individual Insured Member” while engaged
in an “act of self defense”.


8. CRIMINAL DEFENSE COSTS AND
EXPENSE REIMBURSEMENT.
With respect to any “act of self defense” covered
under Insuring Agreement 7. A of this policy for
which the “Individual Insured Member” is
criminally charged with a crime involving a “legally
possessed firearm” to which the “Individual
Insured Member” pleads not guilty by reason of an
“act of self defense” and said criminal charge is
dismissed or the “Individual Insured Member” is
acquitted due to an “act of self defense”,
Underwriters have no obligation to provide a
defense to the criminal charge; but Underwriters
will reimburse the “Individual Insured Member” for
the reasonable costs and expenses of his/her
defense up to a maximum of $50,000 for any one
and all criminal charges in excess of any other
valid and collectible insurance only if all criminal
charges are dismissed or the “Individual Insured
Member” is acquitted of all criminal charges.
However; grand jury or pre-indictment
investigation which requires the insured to retain
counsel and which results in favor of the insured
whether by a verdict of not guilty, a formal
dismissal of the criminal charge or indictment, or a
declaration from the prosecuting attorney(s) that
he or she does not intend to prosecute, (often
referred to as nolle prosequi), the insured, would
apply as if all charges were acquitted. In order to
obtain reimbursement of reasonable costs and
expenses of his/her defense, all charges related to
the insured’s alleged violation should be addressed
and dismissed or nolle prosequi.
All criminal defense costs and expenses reimbursed
by Underwriters reduce the “Individual Insured
Member’s” LIMITS OF LIABILITY set forth in the
Schedule attached to the Notice of Insurance
issued to the “Individual Insured Member” and
shall be included as part of “damages” as defined
in this policy.

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Phoenix David » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:31 pm

I'm a member of USCCA and to be honest I haven't looked as closly as I should about thier insurance ad that was one of the main reasons I joined.
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:48 pm

Raptor, I saw the NRA's before and I appologize for not including it in the links. I've been slammed at work today and just missed it.

The only thing that makes me nervous is that almost all of these are all reimbursement plans. Which is great but I don't have 100k to throw at something. :( I don't know if any exists that are not. But I also understand from the insurance companies standpiont that they don't want to spend a lot of money defending someone's criminal actions (if not found to be in self defense).

Phoenix, was there a reason you had picked USCCA compared to the other offerings such as what Raptor linked?

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by huntingohio » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:16 pm

I used to sell accident and disability insurance for a local company and some wordage to avoid under the exculusions of the policy are:

act of war declared or undeclared- what that means is the policy will not cover shootings ,stabbings, explosions, rape, torture, and many many other situations. Run away from this insurance as fast as you can!

injuries occured during the comision of a felony- Because shooting someone is generally a felony intitailly until ruled self defense, your hung out to dry. Even if later ruled self defense, the insurance company has no obligation to pay as it was "initailly" a felony.

there are a few others i will post time pernitting and memory working

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by raptor » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:17 pm

Typical when you are sued and you have insurance that provides coverage they will step up to control costs. Also your attorney will help you twist their arm into paying him.

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Maverick299 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:27 pm

Not the answer you are looking for but get involved with your local pro 2A lobbies and help to get a "stand your ground" law passed. That is the surest way to assure that if the defendant is found to have acted in self defense with no charges filed its means they cannot be sued in civil court for any amount.

*eta, just noticed you are in CA, my advice in that case is move to another state!
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:46 pm

huntingtonohio, thanks so much. I didn't know act of war would exclude all those things. Please follow up if you think of anything else!!!!

maverick299, CA does have a version of Stand Your Ground / Castle Doctrine with Penal codes 189-199 (it is just not called out as such) AND there is no duty to retreat.
But no further protections for the defendent that did the self defense shooting.
Having a Stand Your Ground law doesn't automatically make you free and clear from lawsuits if you're found to be innocent.
Also you can get sued by family members of the bad guy too. :ohdear:

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Kutter_0311 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:06 pm

OK, maybe I'm simple, but something confuses me.

1.Someone else causes a threat to your life (or serious bodily harm, as we word things in WI)

2.You defend yourself with lethal force to stop this threat

At what point do you become liable for damages?

Circumstances were thrust upon you by this other person, is it not their fault?
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Maverick299 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:09 pm

kaligaran wrote:huntingtonohio, thanks so much. I didn't know act of war would exclude all those things. Please follow up if you think of anything else!!!!

maverick299, CA does have a version of Stand Your Ground / Castle Doctrine with Penal codes 189-199 (it is just not called out as such) AND there is no duty to retreat.
But no further protections for the defendent that did the self defense shooting.
Having a Stand Your Ground law doesn't automatically make you free and clear from lawsuits if you're found to be innocent.
Also you can get sued by family members of the bad guy too. :ohdear:
I guess as with all things they are different. Most SYG laws provide civil protection for the defendent meaning that if you are cleared of charges the victims family cannot sue you in civil court. So essentialy it does make you "free and clear" if you are found to have been involved in a legal act of self defense. Somehow I'm not suprised that CA does not include this in their SYG laws. :(
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Maverick299 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:15 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote:OK, maybe I'm simple, but something confuses me.

1.Someone else causes a threat to your life (or serious bodily harm, as we word things in WI)

2.You defend yourself with lethal force to stop this threat

At what point do you become liable for damages?

Circumstances were thrust upon you by this other person, is it not their fault?

Thanks to your new laws up there in WI you are not liable if you are found to have acted in self defense, but not all states are that way. You guys have made some major strides in Wisconsin for 2A rights in the last few years, kudos to you. Now if my state would just pull their head out of their asses and follow suit.

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:23 pm

Maverick299, I think you're right that most SYG laws also make you non liable. But I was pointing out it's not always the case. :)
Kutter_0311 wrote:At what point do you become liable for damages?
Circumstances were thrust upon you by this other person, is it not their fault?
It happens although I have a feeling it's somewhat rare (my assumption). Anyone can sue reguardless if it's got good ground to stand on or not. Remember you can also get sued by the bad guy's family members or even if you happen to cause property damage because of it.

Just google 'burglar sues homeowner' or something like that. Here's a couple examples: Accused Burglar Sues Homeowner Who Shot Him , Burglar who was shot following break-in files lawsuit

Hopefully NONE of us ever have to deal with this.

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by raptor » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:25 pm

There are two issues. The first is a criminal charge. The second is a civil lawsuit. Just because a shooting is not illegal that does not always exempt you from a civil lawsuit. Even where SYG ground laws provide a defense, it is possible that you can be sued and have to exert your rights under the SYG law. It is also possible you may not be protected even under a SYG law.

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Maverick299 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:44 pm

raptor wrote:There are two issues. The first is a criminal charge. The second is a civil lawsuit. Just because a shooting is not illegal that does not always exempt you from a civil lawsuit. Even where SYG ground laws provide a defense, it is possible that you can be sued and have to exert your rights under the SYG law. It is also possible you may not be protected even under a SYG law.
In many states the SYG specificly states that if you are found innocent of criminal charges you absolutely cannot be sued in civil court. How many states have laws like that, I do not know, but its a major part of the SYG law in some states and it stems from some of the earlier cases where the burglar who hurt himself sued the homeowners. It's one of the few civil laws out there that actually make any sense!
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Kutter_0311 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:02 pm

I truely hope, in most lawsuits where the defender is NOT protected by SYG, the civil defense goes like this...

PERP: ...And now I'm paralyzed because he shot me!

LAWYER: Well, you were trying to rob, rape, and murder him.

PERP: But I can't provide for my kids!

LAWYER: Do you usually provide for those children by robbing, raping, and murdering people?

PERP: Well... There's no jobs... And it was good enough for the Vikings...

LAWYER: The Vikings didn't get compensated by their victims for injuries, either.

PERP: But... I'm a burden on my family!

LAWYER: Because my client needed to stop you from attacking him? Kinda your fault, right?

PERP: Well...

LAWYER: Move to dismiss, Your Honor.

JUDGE: I'm tossing this out. Bailliff, if you could return Mr. Perp to his cell, I'm going to lunch.
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by raptor » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:47 pm

Maverick299 wrote:
raptor wrote:There are two issues. The first is a criminal charge. The second is a civil lawsuit. Just because a shooting is not illegal that does not always exempt you from a civil lawsuit. Even where SYG ground laws provide a defense, it is possible that you can be sued and have to exert your rights under the SYG law. It is also possible you may not be protected even under a SYG law.
In many states the SYG specificly states that if you are found innocent of criminal charges you absolutely cannot be sued in civil court. How many states have laws like that, I do not know, but its a major part of the SYG law in some states and it stems from some of the earlier cases where the burglar who hurt himself sued the homeowners. It's one of the few civil laws out there that actually make any sense!

Let me explain something. Just because the law says a person cannot sue does not mean you will not get sued. It may be dismissed quickly and may even be considered frivolous, but you can still get sued.

You can also be sued by third parties for myriad of causes which may or may not hold up.

For instance a bystander may sue you for trauma suffered by witnessing the event. The store owner may sue you for damages to his store caused by the bullet and the blood spilled on merchandise due to your shot. You name it and a creative PI attorney will figure out an angle.

The perp and his family may be barred by law form seeking damages for that shooting but you may or may not be exempt from other claimants.

Repeat after me "I own and am legally responsible for every bullet that leaves the barrel of my weapon".

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Maverick299 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:53 pm

removed my response as this is getting quite far from the OP's question.
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by Trebor » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:39 pm

Look into this: Marty Hayes and Mas Ayoob are involved with it, so I know it's not a scam. I don't know if it offers what you want, but it's worth checking out

http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by nacho » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:16 pm

If I am using a firearm for self defense I don't care about the legal / financial repercussions. If you have to think, "Is Allstate going to cover this?" you probably shouldn't be pulling the trigger. If anything is on your mind other then saving your life / family, you shouldn't be pulling the trigger. Honestly if you are worried about getting sewed you probably shouldn't CCW.
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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by kaligaran » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:15 am

nacho wrote:If I am using a firearm for self defense I don't care about the legal / financial repercussions. If you have to think, "Is Allstate going to cover this?" you probably shouldn't be pulling the trigger. If anything is on your mind other then saving your life / family, you shouldn't be pulling the trigger. Honestly if you are worried about getting sewed you probably shouldn't CCW.
I'm surprised to hear anyone suggest you shouldn't be concerned with the legal repercussions of your decisions regardless if they are justified or not.
First thing on your mind should always be the safety of yourself and those you love. Now that THAT is out of the way...
Consider this example off of the top of my head:
You are being robbed at gunpoint and pull your carry weapon. You are such a great shot that you hit the bad guy square between the eyes.
THEN a freak accident occurs. That bullet goes THROUGH his head and ricochets off of a tree then it hits little Sally across the street.
You protected yourself and your family, good job. But accidentally injured an innocent party. Now Sally's family is suing you for wrongful death/final expenses and emotional damages.
These incidents are rare. Perhaps more rare than getting in attacked in the first place (don't quote me on that one). If you have a CCW for the possible attack, you should at the very least be aware of the possible repercussions.


Ok back on topic, thank you everyone for your responses. If anyone happens to have additional information on this topic please post or send me a pm.

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Re: ccw insurance (liability) - questions if you have one

Post by nacho » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:44 am

kaligaran wrote:You are being robbed at gunpoint and pull your carry weapon. You are such a great shot that you hit the bad guy square between the eyes.
THEN a freak accident occurs. That bullet goes THROUGH his head and ricochets off of a tree then it hits little Sally across the street.
Being robed by some punk kid in my opinion isn't worth getting in a gun fight over. But If it came down to it I would have no problem being locked up for manslaughter to ensure the safety of my family. I'm not talking about flippantly disregarding the law, but protecting my family trumps all, including my own life and or well being.
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