noise complaint argument escalates to shooting

[kbilly84]

When I saw the title of this thread, I actually laughed out loud. Having read the articles and responses.... Wow.

Everyone's pretty well summed it up. Only thing that keeps coming up in my head. How the fuck are you "standing your ground" when you walk onto someone else's property? If you absolutely have to videotape the party (evidence?), can't you find a better, less obvious way to do it?

This guy gives CC'ers a bad name. Had the party people come over to his house, and the same result occurred, then I could see it.

[jamoni]

On the plus side, I'm willing the cops will take a more assertive role in dealing with loud parties from now on.

[kbilly84]

On the plus side, I'm willing the cops will take a more assertive role in dealing with loud parties from now on.

Wouldn't that be nice. I don't think I'm gonna hold my breath though.

Maybe a warning shot and "don't worry officer, he's dead now" while still on the phone with the police would get them to respond quickly.

[Nightwing]

I seriously hope to gets nailed for this. It boggles my mind how stupid this really was. You bring a gun to complain to your neighbor and videotape yourself shooting someone because "you" felt threatened. Gahhhh! There is so much fail it isn't even funny
.

It's because of assholes like this guy we aren't allowed to have nice things.

Agreed. Hope this dipsh** gets slammed by the courts

[Towanda]

I'd really like to see CC permit classes start covering some de-escalation techniques, but I don't think that's likely.

Sent via messenger owl.

[squinty]

I'd really like to see CC permit classes start covering some de-escalation techniques, but I don't think that's likely.

Sent via messenger owl.

I don't think it would have made a difference for Rodriguez. I don't think he was 100% in touch with reality - he seemed either to have successfully deluded himself that he was somehow in the right, or he's incredibly naive about how easy it will be to pull the wool over a jury's eyes.

FWIW classes in my AO have pretty detailed examinations of self defense law, as well as role played shoot / don't shoot scenarios.

[Blacksmith]

In my current state of residence there are no required classes and there is a SYG law. Around 7% of the state is believed to carry but licensing is local so the numbers are not truly known. We don't have test case going on right now but the media is trying to drag one into it. Some hunters who observing some teenagers breaking into a hunting lodge took it upon themselves to shoot the trespassers (Who were also armed). How the hell the media figures this is SYG I don't know. I must not be smart enough. But they are definitely puting the laws in the cross hairs.

http://blog.al.com/live/2012/04/shot_te ... ill_a.html
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/26/n ... r-3683148/


It is kind of like Zultron.

People are going to believe the craziest things. Sometimes you can not dislodge an idea from someone's head.

I am a more than a little disappointed in the dispatcher. I have not heard that tape but would assume that she should have told him to get the hell out of there. If she did not than that is a major fail right there. Of course he did not have to listen to her either.

[Phoenix David]

Hmmm, I think based on the info provided and I was on the jury I'd probably vote to send him to jail.

He could have avoided the entire situation this was just so filled with fail.

[Towanda]

Is anyone familiar with Texas's SYG law? Does it say anything about being in a place where you are legally allowed to be? It appears to me that Rodriguez was trespassing.

[Blacksmith]

(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.

Part of the question in the case will be to determine if he was trespassing. In most states I have every right to stand in your driveway if I want to come see you for some reason. If you order me to leave and I fail to do so I may be trespassing without some valid legal reason to be there.

[squinty]

Is anyone familiar with Texas's SYG law? Does it say anything about being in a place where you are legally allowed to be? It appears to me that Rodriguez was trespassing.

There is some disagreement as to whether he was standing in the driveway, or in the street just in front of the driveway.

[ElevenBravo]

OK, I'll say it.

Because if someone doesn't, this isn't going to be a balanced discussion. Why did he bring a gun to a noise complaint?

Your right, that was not acceptable. He would have been better off just ignoring the party, birthdays come once a year... should have been a while before they had another??

I do think it is possible he baited them into the shooting, possible.

Andrew

[kbilly84]

I'd really like to see CC permit classes start covering some de-escalation techniques, but I don't think that's likely.

I may have had a really awesome instructor, but my class had some of this. More is always better, but it was definitely something. He also talked about how one of the best ways to cover your ass (legally speaking) is to be a "reluctant participant". Meaning, do everything you can to avoid even drawing a firearm.

Walking onto the neighbor's property to videotape the party is NOT de-escalation. There was nothing reluctant about his participation. Far as I'm concerned, he's guilty of murder.

I forget who said it on another thread, but he summed it up best by saying something to effect of "when I'm carrying, I'm the nicest, kindest, most polite SOB in the world."

[squinty]

Important to note that just because the suspect says "I'm standing my ground," that doesn't make the shooting a "stand your ground" case. SYG doesn't protect aggressors, or absolve provocateurs from the duty to retreat from a confrontation they started. People will howl about SYG law being at fault in this shooting, but it's not - R was promptly arrested and prosecuted, and his defense looks weak. SYG didn't let him get away scot free (ok, he hasn't been convicted yet.)

The problem with SYG laws isn't the wording of the laws. It is the misunderstanding of the law by people who read the hype, and think it allows them to do something that it does not.

[raptor]

Note SYG laws do vary widly by state. Each state has different rules. In LA and TX there is very broad latitude when you are on your own property and even in your own car.That said no one with half a brain would go pick a fight with a neighbor over noise and turn the matter into a potential homicide case.

On the other hand in TX and LA if someone tells you to leave their property, you should do so immediately and without hesitation.

[jamoni]

Important to note that just because the suspect says "I'm standing my ground," that doesn't make the shooting a "stand your ground" case. SYG doesn't protect aggressors, or absolve provocateurs from the duty to retreat from a confrontation they started. People will howl about SYG law being at fault in this shooting, but it's not - R was promptly arrested and prosecuted, and his defense looks weak. SYG didn't let him get away scot free (ok, he hasn't been convicted yet.)

The problem with SYG laws isn't the wording of the laws. It is the misunderstanding of the law by people who read the hype, and think it allows them to do something that it does not.

You make a good point. This guy's misunderstanding of the law, intentional or not, is probably NOT going to get him off. The cops determined an arrest was in order, the prosecutors determined a prosecution was in order, and most likely the jury will return a guilty verdict. The fact is that this case will probably do SYG a favor by determining what ISN'T covered.

[Regular Guy]

Everything I'm about to say has already been said, I just want to say it.
This guy went over there looking for conflict. There is absolutely no way he can say he was just asking them to turn the music down. He want over there with a video camera looking to tape his confrontation. He wasn't going to tape his pleas of "Excuse me, could ya'all keep it down a little, thanks." He went over to get into a fight, verbal or otherwise. This is the fucking guy that buys a gun thinking about how he's going to be a hero and shoot somebody.
His actions lead to escalation, he was the one starting the trouble. In my eyes the home owner didn't help but he had every right to be safe on his property. Going inside to get his gun was the right move, shit, you flash a gun at me while I'm in my yard I'm going inside to get mine. The big fucking idiotic mistake this homeowners made was was going back outside, trying to disarm the aggressor and furthering the conflict. Go back inside and call the police. Now by this dumbass homeowner actions he now is left without a wife. Over a stupid argument with a neighbor about noise.
I support stand your ground laws but SYG doesn't mean say "I'm in fear of my life" and start shooting. This noise complainer made no effort to retreat in fact, I believe he went forward into the homeowners yard. That's not SYG, that's aggression. To be in fear of your life, there had be the ability of the other party to harm you, while there were 3 (?) men in the yard none of them were attacking him or armed. He had a gun, kind of equaling things out therefore I do not believe he was ever in fear of his life.
TL;DR: This guy went looking for it, he was never in jeopardy of great harm to himself or death and started a gun fight. Jail.

[kbilly84]

truth

Made me think of this:

[PackLemming]

If I file a noise complaint I don't make ANY contact with the noise maker.

This. It simply invites retaliation if they put two and two together and decide you called the cops. Best to remain anonymous, not get in a penis length contest, and let your neighbors live and your ass stay out of jail or the hospital.

This P.R character sounds to me like the kind of man who's being frequently walked upon by others reached an intolerable level and he decided to invite trouble.

I see noone mention the 25cents solution, ear plugs....

Social study wise, I have found my neighbors tend to be very nosey without an invitation or cause for interest. When they get what they want, that is DRAMA , they begin to change their attitudes. What I mean is when there is grounds for suspicion they will flip flop from privacy invaders into the extreme bi-polar opposite. For just as long as it takes for the DRAMA to blow over.

Case point example, I want nothing to do with my neighbors, I mind my own business, and keep my electronic noises very discrete, yet they insist on finding out about me from 3rd parties, minus my consent. Yet when it comes to being vigilant, as in spotting the burglar's opportunity and correcting the vulnerability or scolding feral brats for smoking & dealing weed in the street they will not invest their interests or energies.

Generally speaking you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink.

[Blacksmith]

Apparently now they are saying he was in the street in front of the house at the time of the shooting. However he provoked the confrontation by shining his flashlight into the party house repeatedly. And....

The jury also heard about a different side when a neighbor testified that Rodriguez, 47, referred to Kelly Danaher in vulgar expletives the day before he shot him.

"That was just Mr. Rodriguez," said Pete Fornols, who lived between Rodriguez and Danaher in a rural northeast Harris County neighborhood.

Rodriguez was upset by noise from a birthday party at Danaher's home, his attorneys said. He called police several times before confronting the partygoers with a flashlight, a video camera and a gun just after midnight May 1, 2010.

Testimony showed that Rodriguez also called Fornols 13 times the night of the party trying to get him to go help shut the party down.

Shows a lot of forethought into the confrontation.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas ... 626044.php

[PackLemming]

Apparently now they are saying he was in the street in front of the house at the time of the shooting. However he provoked the confrontation by shining his flashlight into the party house repeatedly. And....

The jury also heard about a different side when a neighbor testified that Rodriguez, 47, referred to Kelly Danaher in vulgar expletives the day before he shot him.

"That was just Mr. Rodriguez," said Pete Fornols, who lived between Rodriguez and Danaher in a rural northeast Harris County neighborhood.

Rodriguez was upset by noise from a birthday party at Danaher's home, his attorneys said. He called police several times before confronting the partygoers with a flashlight, a video camera and a gun just after midnight May 1, 2010.

Testimony showed that Rodriguez also called Fornols 13 times the night of the party trying to get him to go help shut the party down.

Shows a lot of forethought into the confrontation.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas ... 626044.php

If this man was determined to make some kind of impression on the world by acts of violence he would not fetish the moment of truth involving the deployment of his handgun, that would actually be a means to an end, the destination he would have to be willing to accept is a long stay behind bars surrounded by other men with equally qualifying prerequisite deeds for incarceration on the record. He's not a Travis Bickle, nor a J.J.Rambo type.

I believe he is most probably an isolated individual, poor interpersonal skills and believes what ever peace he was arguing for the night of the shooting was a hard earned prize, and he was/is extremely reluctant to see that being broken by the 'I couldnt care less' & 'I know my rights' type of youth. Hence the quasi legit stand he made with multiple complaints to Police on record logs. Sure it makes him a player, playing the game but thats the clockwork motion of the machine in action.

[squinty]

He was convicted.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 55592380/1

During closing arguments, prosecutor Kelli Johnson said Rodriguez started the confrontation when instead of calmly asking Danaher to turn down the music he armed himself with a handgun and a camera and proceeded to harass people at the party.

Johnson said Rodriguez lured and provoked Danaher and two other men to come out onto the street and threatened them by brandishing his gun. Rodriguez did have a concealed handgun license. She said Danaher and the two other men were unarmed and that Rodriguez's life was never in any danger. Danaher's widow had told jurors her husband was not a confrontational person.

"This is not what stand your ground is," Johnson said. "Stand your ground is something the law takes very seriously. The law makes it very clear" when the law can be used.

Texas' version of the law, which is known as the Castle Doctrine, was revised in 2007 to expand the right to use deadly force. It allows people to defend themselves not only in their homes but also in their workplaces or vehicles. Legal experts say the expansion also gave people wider latitude on the use of deadly force.

The law also says a person using force can't provoke the attacker or be involved in criminal activity at the time.

Johnson said Rodriguez can't hide behind the stand-your-ground law because he provoked the confrontation and then brandished his weapon against an unarmed individual, which is a crime.

But defense attorney Neal Davis said he doesn't believe Rodriguez did anything illegal. He said Rodriguez went to complain and was confronted by Danaher and the two other partygoers, and that he didn't pull out his gun until he was standing in the street and Danaher approached him in a threatening manner.

"He had a right to be (in) the street. He was not provoking anybody. He was not engaged in any criminal activity. The (stand-your-ground) law is not only for home invasions. That's why the law was changed," Davis said.

I believe the conviction was appropriate. WRT Danaher and friends, sometimes the best self defense strategy is refusing to take the bait.

[Blacksmith]

My op? Justice.

WRT Danaher and friends, sometimes the best self defense strategy is refusing to take the bait.

He was a drunken PE teacher. It was not going to take a whole lot to bait him.

[El Bandito]

It would seem odd to me to suggest that one carry except when one is expecting trouble.

Like I said, I carry all the time. If I am "expecting trouble" I really need to reevaluate where I am going and why I am going there. There is enough shit in the world without going looking for it.

Word.
I think there are too many people who don't get SYG laws and use them as an excuse to act like some kind of bad ass. Your neighbors driveway is not "your ground". Sounds like the guy went looking for a confrontation and took a gun as a show of force. He never should have been there, let the cops deal with it.