Is a cook off an ND?

[leatherface_y2k]

I think a distinction might be made between negligent and accidental in the OP's case. Both are a bad thing, but as long as the weapon is pointed in a safe direction, as in at the ground or at the known backstop.. yeah, it's shocking but no harm done. And if the range has gone cold there should be no rounds chambered under any circumstance. Same with hangfires. Keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction until it either ignites or you remove the round. I've only experienced one hangfire, with a round of .22lr, and it shook me up. Pulled the trigger, nothing. Hmm, I'm sure I chambered a round.. wtf? Then BANG. Luckily I was out in the middle of nowhere shooting at a jackrabbit.

[ptAltered]

I think a distinction might be made between negligent and accidental in the OP's case. Both are a bad thing, but as long as the weapon is pointed in a safe direction, as in at the ground or at the known backstop.. yeah, it's shocking but no harm done. And if the range has gone cold there should be no rounds chambered under any circumstance. Same with hangfires. Keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction until it either ignites or you remove the round. I've only experienced one hangfire, with a round of .22lr, and it shook me up. Pulled the trigger, nothing. Hmm, I'm sure I chambered a round.. wtf? Then BANG. Luckily I was out in the middle of nowhere shooting at a jackrabbit.

There's no such thing as an accident.

When people hurt someone without meaning to they always claim it as an accident, but it's really just a degree of negligence.

A part can break, a piece of ammunition can malfunction, some powder can ignite in a case inside the breech of a weapon, it's up to us to mitigate these risks and, if we fail to do that, it's due to our negligence.

[Liff]

There's no such thing as an accident.

Ever trip on a crack while walking? Or slip on ice? Ever had something slip from your grip and fall? Still think those are pure negligence?

What about a bird flying into an airplanes engines? Was the airplane pilot negligent there? Or was the bird negligent?

Ever look through YouTube and see the car-deer collisions? In most cases, the driver had no human ability to avoid such an accident. Or was the deer negligent in crossing the road?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accident Yup, accidents are real and existent. I try to not think in "black and white" or "always" terms, it seems like every time I try to think that way, I am wrong. You may be too.

[jamoni]

If a cook-off is an ND, then what about a hang-fire? What about slam-firing?

At what level of mechanical malfunction or failure does it turn from ND to AD, or is it simply that an ND requires the addition of operator negligence?

This subject has made me curious.

A cook off is not a mechanical malfunction, IMHO, Nothing went WRONG with the gun. Nothing broke. It just got hot, which they do, not by themselves, but because of poor burst discipline. That's operator error, not mechanical malfunction. It's like saying the gun malfunctioned because it wouldn't fire with the safety on.

[raptor]

What about a bird flying into an airplanes engines? Was the airplane pilot negligent there? Or was the bird negligent?

Ever look through YouTube and see the car-deer collisions? In most cases, the driver had no human ability to avoid such an accident. Or was the deer negligent in crossing the road?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accident Yup, accidents are real and existent. I try to not think in "black and white" or "always" terms, it seems like every time I try to think that way, I am wrong. You may be too.

There are random, unforeseen events. IMO these random unforeseen events do cause accidents. Both of these though may seem random but again the hazard of birds are well known to any pilot and deer hits can be avoided by reducing your speed and areas with dense deer populations.

We like to think accidents are not our fault. They just happen. However, many "accidents" are the result a string of failures or oversights. In the end we are responsible for our own safety. Much of what we call accidents are really negligence. Virtually every car accident involves some sort of negligence. Any collision or allision will involve some form of negligence by one of the parties.

For instance airports disperse birds near runways and pilots are advised about birds in an area. It is up to them to see and avoid the birds.

BTW I agree a hang fire is an equipment failure and not negligence...unless we fail to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. The hang fire is a case where an equipment malfunction can lead to a negligent action.

I still think the OP caused no harm and thus there was no foul.

[ptAltered]

There's no such thing as an accident.

Ever trip on a crack while walking? Or slip on ice? Ever had something slip from your grip and fall? Still think those are pure negligence?

What about a bird flying into an airplanes engines? Was the airplane pilot negligent there? Or was the bird negligent?

Ever look through YouTube and see the car-deer collisions? In most cases, the driver had no human ability to avoid such an accident. Or was the deer negligent in crossing the road?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accident Yup, accidents are real and existent. I try to not think in "black and white" or "always" terms, it seems like every time I try to think that way, I am wrong. You may be too.

You're confusing terms here.

"accident" and "negligence" aren't antonyms

"Accident" and "bad shit happening" aren't synonyms.

If someone willfully shoots another it's neither an accident or negligence, it's intentional malice.

If I drop something I'm holding because I've not paid enough attention then it's negligence.

If a driver swerves to avoid a child and hits another vehicle it's not an accident, it's the direct and intended result of someones action.

A bird hitting a plane engine isn't an "accident", it's a negative event.

World English Dictionary
accident (ˈæksɪdənt)

— n
1. an unforeseen event or one without an apparent cause
2. anything that occurs unintentionally or by chance; chance; fortune: I met him by accident

WITHOUT APPARENT CAUSE

If we use the second definition then almost everything is an accident, even when we make plans all sorts of "unintentional" things occur.

A bird flying into an engine isn't an unforeseen event, engineers and pilots know it can happen and plan for it the best they can.

[ultra magnus]

This argument is really dumb.

Definition of ACCIDENT

1
a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance
b : lack of intention or necessity : chance <met by accident rather than by design>
2
a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance

[Phoenix David]

.... An overheating engine simply dies or loses power, allowing you to coast or limp to the nearest safe spot to stop.

Unless it's an aircraft

[JTNieman]

Dictionaries lack context.

Stop using generic, catch-all definitions as if it applies to a specific niche of context and consequence. Otherwise, adults are talking. Shoo.

[Liff]

Yeah, sorry for the derail, I was responding to the, "No such thing as an accident" idea. There are things that happen beyond your control in the absence of negligence. Those things are called accidents.

Anyway, back on topic:

My take on the situation: Negligent discharge 100%. Forget about the different upper, I knew better and I shouldn't have run the gun that hard, then left a round in the chamber while waiting on the R-C plane to make the return pass.

The reason I started this topic was twofold. First, not every time that a firearm discharges without the user's intention is a 100% pure Negligent Discharge. There are shades of grey in this issue. The hang fire did not fire when the user intended it to, but we see that differently than someone saying, "I didn't know it wasn't loaded". And then there are issues like cook offs or mechanical failures that are somewhere in the middle.

The second is that when you are following all both of the safety rules, it is hard to get hurt. Liff's both firearm safety rules: 1) Don't touch the trigger until you intend to fire and 2) Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy. I know people make up other rules, but really, those two will do it.

It was negligent to run the weapon that hot while leaving a round in the chamber. I know and I knew better. That is a ND in my world.

[Kutter_0311]

OK, I'll agree to ND on the grounds you knew you had run the rifle too hot, and still chambered a round. But since you still had the rifle pointed downrange, and no one was hurt, I'll recomend the CO only give you 15 days restriction and 15 days extra duty. Next time, just leave the bolt open ontil that RC plane comes back in sight

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Yes. There are accidents, but all accidents can be mitigated by someone.

It's been said plenty of different ways, but it boils down to this: Know your rates of fire and the pauses for cooling. Hot enough to cook a round could be hot enough to damage the weapon. Beyond that, there are two very dangerous possible results from a cook-off.

If it cooks off out of battery, you could seriously injure yourself or someone else, hence the machinegunner's ditty anytime they open a hot gun. "Wait 5 seconds for a hang-fire...5...4...3...2...1...head down and clear the feed tray and chamber." The last bit is mostly a training ditty, because you only need to see pictures of one face with the remnants of a cook-ed off casing to remember that cook-offs can happen even if you are following your rates of fire.

The other really dangerous possible result is a run-away gun, which usually means a poorly maintained or worn out weapon. Combine a run-away with an ND or cookoff and you have a recipe for a mass-casualty situation.

I hope I was clear enough, I was just trying to explain why I think it's an ND. The UCMJ does allow for a "no fault" ND, but it's still an ND. A cookoff can be either, and a gunner who overheats his gun without a really good reason can be fried for a cookoff. Either way, good on ya for keeping it under control Liff, and I hope you had plenty of fun.

[jamoni]

I think a distinction might be made between negligent and accidental in the OP's case. Both are a bad thing, but as long as the weapon is pointed in a safe direction, as in at the ground or at the known backstop.. yeah, it's shocking but no harm done. And if the range has gone cold there should be no rounds chambered under any circumstance. Same with hangfires. Keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction until it either ignites or you remove the round. I've only experienced one hangfire, with a round of .22lr, and it shook me up. Pulled the trigger, nothing. Hmm, I'm sure I chambered a round.. wtf? Then BANG. Luckily I was out in the middle of nowhere shooting at a jackrabbit.

There's no such thing as an accident.

When people hurt someone without meaning to they always claim it as an accident, but it's really just a degree of negligence.

A part can break, a piece of ammunition can malfunction, some powder can ignite in a case inside the breech of a weapon, it's up to us to mitigate these risks and, if we fail to do that, it's due to our negligence.

You don't have kids, do you?