ammo after shtf

[mk_ultra]

Oh yeah? Well, my 7.62x39 is better cuz I like to shoot through stuff, and hit my target with indirect fire past 300m!

I totally want to make an action movie someday where the main character and another character are in a firefight and the MC has an AK-104 or something, and the BGs take cover behind a brick wall. The person with them looks at them with a worried look, and the main character just smirks as they blow through the wall and get the BGs on the other side. Then they look at the other person and say something like "...accept no substitutes"

I was not impressed by Lord of War showwing a thick oak table stopping 60 AK rounds, or the twin hitters taking 30min to change mags. Also, pulling an M16 out of a pile of rifles scavanged from the barracks bombing and firing a burst was BS. I want a job in Hollywood where I unfuck these lies by live-fire demonstration

I thought parts of Way of the Gun were good. Mostly where he employs a FAL in ways I would, like DM'ing from safely outside the range of everyone's pistols, or shooting through hotel walls. I may not like M1a's or Springfield armory, but their line about 'bringing enough gun' has always made a lot of sense to me.

The rifle in Way of the Gun was a 7.62 Galil .

[bae]

The rifle in Way of the Gun was a 7.62 Galil .

And don't forget James Caan's character's excellent display of the use of a snubby

[Kutter_0311]

The rifle in Way of the Gun was a 7.62 Galil .

I thought there was one of each, just at different times... Guess I'd better go back and watch it again

[sarky]

In reading through the previous posts about scavenging and comparing it to theft IN a SHTF scenario, I am appalled at the lack of historical context. We are talking (theoretically) about a life or death scenario and you are worried about laws???!!! We aren't talking about a day in milktoast America here. Survival is about scavenging items you NEED to continue surviving. I'm not talking about taking jewelry or cash off of a body. But if my knife is broken or lost and there is a body with a perfectly good knife on it, I am taking that tool to help me survive. If you don't want to, that is your choice and a poor one IMO.

[TDW586]

As sarky demonstates above, apparently some people simply are not capable of understanding that ZS is not about their "Without Rule Of Law" Post-Apocalyptic Mad Max fantasies.

Sarky, in Katrina, a lot of people thought the world had ended, and did things that were illegal because they were thinking the way you are. After the situation stabilized, many those people were held legally accountable for their actions. In Argentina during the financial collapse, although it was in many ways a lawless country with no effective law enforcement, police and military police units still existed. How would they react to "scavengers"?

ZS is about preparedness, it is not about scavenging, it is about the opposite. Making sure you have what you need to survive so that you're not in the position of scavenging and looting or dying.

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[sarky]

And you are missing the point! If a disaster hit your area and you had been without water for 3 days then you come across a body in a vehicle with 4 bottles of water in the vehicle, would you take the water to keep yourself alive or let yourself die?????

[AKFTW]

And you are missing the point! If a disaster hit your area and you had been without water for 3 days then you come across a body in a vehicle with 4 bottles of water in the vehicle, would you take the water to keep yourself alive or let yourself die?????

We hear you, and as a SERE Instructor, you probably know a hell of a lot more about survival than most of us here do. It's just... there are some things we can't talk about here because ZS is a charity organization and we don't want to be promoting certain things. Just because we don't talk about politics or religion here doesn't mean that none of us have political views or religious beliefs, and in the same way, just because we don't talk about or condone activities like taking things from the dead doesn't mean that in a REAL survival situation, we wouldn't do absolutely everything we had to do to survive, just because some family might sue for the loss of 4 bottles of water after the disaster. We just don't want people to think that such a thing IS a viable plan so they won't plan on hijacking a commercial airliner and taking it to Meat World in the event of a disaster.

[TDW586]

And you are missing the point! If a disaster hit your area and you had been without water for 3 days then you come across a body in a vehicle with 4 bottles of water in the vehicle, would you take the water to keep yourself alive or let yourself die?????

I'm not missing the point at all, and the answer to that is obvious. You're missing the point that the entire purpose of preparing is to stock water so that you're not wandering around hoping to find some to scavenge, loot or steal. Sounds like a better plan, doesn't it?

Of course if it's a choice between dying and scavenging something that can save me I'd take it. What is there to discuss there? Why are you (and others) absolutely determined that you will and must talk about taking shit that doesn't belong to you on this website? Is it really so damned hard to understand that yes, everyone fucking knows you'd take a botte of water to keep yourself alive. You're not a fucking survival guru for saying that, you're not teaching anyone anything. Don't discuss taking shit that isn't yours on this website. This website is about preparedness, the opposite of scavenging. Prepare so you don't have to scavenge.

Now, what about that is so difficult to accept?

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[sarky]

If you are going to ask that question, I have to ask, why are you so determined to have your head in the sand thinking that the possibility of having to scavenge is absurd or a nil point. Survival is no different than any other activity we do. It's all about muscle memory and mental memory. If you instill in people that you should never scavenge, they won't under any circumstances. Before to argue this, let me give you an example what happens when you train people to not defend themselves. Let me take you back to 9-11-2001. 2 planes are taken over and headed for the twin towers. The terrorist are out numbered 20+ to 1. There is no way they should have pulled it off. But passengers had been trained to just sit back, take the trip to Havana and they would be flown home in a couple of days. That didn't work out well did it. Today, after that rude awakening, if a passenger gets out of hand the other passengers beat the crap out of him. So would you rather people take the option of scavenging off the board or let them have in the back of their mind that it is an option. And since this is a Zombie board, i'll use the "Walking Dead" as an example of the stupidity of not scavenging. Untold numbers of walkers and hundreds if not thousands of military guns and ammo laying all around. How many did they pick up? How many multi-fuel deuce and a half trucks did they take? And yet they would have been better off with them.
A lot of what we discuss here has to be theoretical in nature, but we also have to use the lessons of history so we don't make the same mistakes. You must also decide what your plan of action is based on the criteria set by the originator of the thread. That is why there are caveats (ie. theoretically speaking). How many war games are played out this way?
I am in no way advocating looting or stealing for others, but I have seen the stark reality of what goes on in some turd world countries and the possibility of that happening here sits ill with me. I am not however so frightened of it that i will purge it from my mind. It is filed under "what If" and there it sits.

[sarky]

TDW, I am not here to get into a pissing contest with you but I really have to ask, have you been to places like Somalia or Djubuti? It is very different from Europe or the US. What to you is a SHTF situation? for me, Katrina was a disaster (on many levels) and was acerbated by the reactions of the politicians and law enforcement. But it didn't rise to SHTF for me.

[hatchtrikk]

Sarky, dude.

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=19895

Rule number one. Simple as that.

[TDW586]

I've been to Iraq, Kenya, the slums of Argentina and Equador, Kuwait, and various other places. Don't try to make this about naive people.

I've tried to explain this to you, you've clearly don't want to hear it. This forum is private property, so you're arguing with the owners' wishes in their own home. Peace, bro, I'm out.

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[sarky]

Then you well aware of the human condition under those societal stressors. As I have posted numerous times I do NOT advocate looting or theft or any other illegal activity. However there are exceptions to the rule. Do we or do we not discuss traps and snares as well as trot line on these boards? In many states it is illegal to use those methods of acquiring game.
I said enough and am done here we will have to agree to disagree.
And I understand the rules
Scavenging is done all the time whether you are picking at the dump or junkie Joes or in the wilderness. It is a part of survival.

[Regular Guy]

We just don't want people to think that such a thing IS a viable plan so they won't plan on hijacking a commercial airliner and taking it to Meat World in the event of a disaster.

No? It's not a good plan? Damn. ***Erases white board for the 38th time***

OT: There are places to discuss looting/scavenging. Those places have a lot of other things to offer as well. I don't dig what they talk about because I'm firmly opposed to breaking the law even if there isn't anyone to enforce it. In extreme dire situations that 12 other reasonable people would agree with your decision steps maybe taken but discussion of such is not welcome here.

Really, what happens if those 4 bottles of water were left there by a family with little kids that were just off burying one of their loved ones and they come back to find that those bottles are gone. As a result of not having that water the little kids die in front of their parents.

Stuff left around or in somes home/on their property is not yours to take. Ever.
Just because you didn't prepare does not mean that you can take other preps because they aren't there.

Or let's look at it like this. They see you from far off and they see you're armed. They get scared and hide. You come along a take their 4 bottles of water. Now you've reinforced your image as a raider/looter. Now, 15 minutes after you've passed the police arrive. Now the folks that had their water stolen by you report you as a looter and they give your description to the police. 15 minutes later the police find you and gaffle you up. Now you're charged with a felony and since you stole water from a family the police aren't at all feeling sorry for you.

[RayGun19]

Wow. That was awesome. I've lurked for some time. And I'll probably get flamed for this (covering with a wet blanket), but I just had to comment.

And now for something completely different. Well, not really.

Ok, here we go:

Illegal?

Like the G and various police departments ILLEGALLY confiscating law abiding citizens weapons during Katrina.

Which left them and their supplies defenseless.

Which left several dead (well, they were dead, and had bullet holes and knife wounds in them. That's what the AA reports said anyway) and their homes looted.

Except the roving GANGS. You know, the ones with the ILLEGAL firearms. That weren't confiscated. Because they kept them and stayed away from those who were "there to help." When opportunity knocks, the scum comes out of the woodwork. And history screams the truth, you just have to listen.

Unfortunately in today's media frenzied cesspool, given the NEED to defend yourself (remember, the average LEO-civilian ratio is 2.25:1,000. So response time to help you, along with the 1,000 other people in need just then) is a real crap shoot. Defend yourself during an extended disaster, and neighbor X films you doing so, but the scum are the correct color/ethnic background/dress/etc/etc for said media frenzy a-holes, and you'll go down no matter what after the recovery. Here comes the possibly illegal venture into FANTASY. Do you let them have the very items you collected from lists on ZS that will let you survive to the recovery, or do you defend yourself and risk the shit storm after said recovery. Ahh the age old message board argument (that has no real, solid, good answer that you can post. Wait, doesn't most everyone on here have guns?)

I know what you were getting at Sarky. And I agree. Disaster and SHTF are two totally different gigs. The former can lead to the later. I think the original posts maybe should have been a bit more clear on that one. Maybe I'm just crazy though. I think the word fantasize is overused though. Prepping in general is all about fantasizing, isn't it? Looking at history, looking at your situation, and then FANTASIZING about what COULD happen. And all the paths that could take. And then you plan (fantasize) what you'd need and what you'd do for each.

Disaster = recovery and resupply at some point: COVERED.

SHTF = an metric ass-load of unknown: maaaaaaan do I still need a bunch of stuff.

[phil_in_cs]

We don't discuss doing illegal things on ZS. Internet is a big wide world, and if you need to discuss illegal things there are many other places to do so.

Locking this as it gets flagged for illegal activity about 3 times a day.