Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot rule)

[Maverick299]

But, after a direct shot to the heart as mentioned in the original context, at 20ft he is not.
How fast can a deer run?
Have you ever shot one directly in the heart?
How far did it get when it's natural instincts kicked in and it tried to escape?

I have shot plenty of deer in the heart, have you? Not a single one of them stopped in their tracks from a heart shot, some went as little as 50 yards, some as far as 500. Adrenaline will keep the body moving long after what should be considered "dead on their feet". The only deer I have shot that have stopped in their tracks are either hit in the spinal/neck area or have the bullet break through both front shoulders and break them down. A heart shot is not a instant kill.

[maldon007]

[quote="gelgoog"]...Also never stop shooting until the threat is no longer a threat/you are no longer in fear for your life. [quote]


Fixed that for you, and your lawyer

[Visionz]

But, after a direct shot to the heart as mentioned in the original context, at 20ft he is not.
How fast can a deer run?
Have you ever shot one directly in the heart?
How far did it get when it's natural instincts kicked in and it tried to escape?

I have shot plenty of deer in the heart, have you? Not a single one of them stopped in their tracks from a heart shot, some went as little as 50 yards, some as far as 500. Adrenaline will keep the body moving long after what should be considered "dead on their feet". The only deer I have shot that have stopped in their tracks are either hit in the spinal/neck area or have the bullet break through both front shoulders and break them down. A heart shot is not a instant kill.

I can say I have only shot one direct shot to the heart. It didn't go much further than 15 feet maybe 25 most.
I realize adrenaline can do wonders, but you have to have a functioning heart to circulate it through the body.

[squinty]

I'm pretty sure that an attacker shot in the heart will not continue his attack with quite the same vigor or stamina as an attacker who has not been injured at all, because the defender couldn't get his gun out in time. It is pretty well established that even heart shots aren't 100% reliable instant stops. Few hits with a handgun are. It's also entirely beside the point of the Tueller drill, and the challenge of drawing your sidearm under pressure.

And it's an odd coincidence that right after a heated debate over the effect of center mass shots winds down in off topic, the same subject gets brought up again, by another new poster with a very low count, in a different thread.

[squinty]

But, after a direct shot to the heart as mentioned in the original context, at 20ft he is not.
How fast can a deer run?
Have you ever shot one directly in the heart?
How far did it get when it's natural instincts kicked in and it tried to escape?

I have shot plenty of deer in the heart, have you? Not a single one of them stopped in their tracks from a heart shot, some went as little as 50 yards, some as far as 500. Adrenaline will keep the body moving long after what should be considered "dead on their feet". The only deer I have shot that have stopped in their tracks are either hit in the spinal/neck area or have the bullet break through both front shoulders and break them down. A heart shot is not a instant kill.

I can say I have only shot one direct shot to the heart. It didn't go much further than 15 feet maybe 25 most.
I realize adrenaline can do wonders, but you have to have a functioning heart to circulate it through the body.

With no circulation but an intact nervous, muscular, and skeletal system, sometimes a lot of work can be done via anaerobic metabolism, for up to a minute or so, before the brain and muscles run out of gas. Usually less. But like I said, that's not terribly relevant to the discussion in this thread (it's Murph's thread, step in and tell me I'm wrong if you're OK with it Murph.) It also weirdly echoes an argument that's already been hashed to death in the off topic thread about the miami face eater. We don't need to have that same argument in multiple threads.

[Visionz]

I was simply stating my opinion on the matter. I did not know forum etiquette required us to give a big thumbs up to all threads and happily agree.
Frankly this is all quite a very mute point, because should the situation ever arise that a crazed nut comes at me from 20ft away with a knife, I am not taking one shot at him. I am using every shot I have and if he still isn't down I am preparing to disarm his knife. (all assuming in those split seconds I can empty my gun and prepare to disarm)

[squinty]

I was simply stating my opinion on the matter. I did not know forum etiquette required us to give a big thumbs up to all threads and happily agree.
Frankly this is all quite a very mute point, because should the situation ever arise that a crazed nut comes at me from 20ft away, I am not taking one shot at him. I am using every shot I have and if he still isn't down I am preparing to disarm his knife. (all assuming in those split seconds I can empty my gun and prepare to disarm)

Well, like you said, forum etiquette allows us all to disagree, so that's what I'm doing - I am disagreeing with your opinion, and offering reasons why. That's called a conversation.

The point of the drill is that, if your gun is holstered, you aren't likely to get even one shot at him before he cuts you. If your gun is out and a guy rushes at you with a knife or other lethal weapon, then yes, a mag dump center mass would probably be the best course of action. Maybe coupled with a vigorous step off line.

If the gun is holstered, you may be stuck trying to perform the disarm, or using some other HTH technique, before yo get a chance to draw.

[Visionz]

Right, but it was implied that events could happened in this order.

1. Attacker has knife and is threatening
2. Defender gives a direct shot to the heart while the attacker is still 21ft away
3. Attacker with a direct shot to the heart can traverse 21ft still and attack.

As I understand it, the Tueller drill is this order.

1.Attacker is 21ft away and approaching with knife.
2. Defender pulls gun from holster and aims while the attacker is approaching

The whole purpose of that drill is..
Can you unholster, aim, and fire a handgun in 1.5 seconds

It seems to me the original poster of this thread was turning Tuellers drill from the defense perspective to the attacker.

Can you traverse 21ft after a direct shot to the heart.

That is not Tuellers drill as I understand it.

[Maverick299]

But, after a direct shot to the heart as mentioned in the original context, at 20ft he is not.
How fast can a deer run?
Have you ever shot one directly in the heart?
How far did it get when it's natural instincts kicked in and it tried to escape?

I have shot plenty of deer in the heart, have you? Not a single one of them stopped in their tracks from a heart shot, some went as little as 50 yards, some as far as 500. Adrenaline will keep the body moving long after what should be considered "dead on their feet". The only deer I have shot that have stopped in their tracks are either hit in the spinal/neck area or have the bullet break through both front shoulders and break them down. A heart shot is not a instant kill.

I can say I have only shot one direct shot to the heart. It didn't go much further than 15 feet maybe 25 most.
I realize adrenaline can do wonders, but you have to have a functioning heart to circulate it through the body.

With no circulation but an intact nervous, muscular, and skeletal system, sometimes a lot of work can be done via anaerobic metabolism, for up to a minute or so, before the brain and muscles run out of gas. Usually less. But like I said, that's not terribly relevant to the discussion in this thread (it's Murph's thread, step in and tell me I'm wrong if you're OK with it Murph.) It also weirdly echoes an argument that's already been hashed to death in the off topic thread about the miami face eater. We don't need to have that same argument in multiple threads.

Miami Face Eater?!?!?!? I must have missed that thread, lol

[squinty]

Miami Face Eater?!?!?!? I must have missed that thread, lol

Oh it's a fuckin' gem. You didn't miss it, it missed you - the same way a dodged bullet misses you.
Because you never call.
But if you're a real masochist, check out Off Topic. It's there in all it's ugly glory.

[phil_in_cs]

Paul Howe now teaches that only shoots to the central nervous system (spine plus brain) can be counted on to take someone down quickly. He's got many documented cases of people shot through the heart with a rifle (10x more power than a pistol) and staying in the fight for 30-60 seconds before function begins to drop. If I am on you with a knife, I can stab you about two to three times per second.

The Tueller Drill

The drill is meant to demonstrate that if someone is 21 feet away, they can be on you and cutting you before you get shots off. That isn't to say that the knife bearer will not sustain a mortal injury in the process. Time yourself on a shot at 7 yards. 1.5 seconds or less and you managed to get one shot on the target before it ran into you. The original data was collected using officers with belt holsters. If you carry your pistol concealed, be sure to include that in your time.

If you want to test this, get an airsoft pistol and a red sharpie. It isn't hard to do.

[Visionz]

For crying out loud, why was this monster even hatched.

Tueller asked a group of people to cover 21ft as quickly as possible and determined that it took 1.5 seconds.
He didn't shoot a bunch of people directly in the heart and ask them to cover 21ft as quickly as possible

Everything here is purely speculation and there is very little if any data to support the claim that the average man shot directly in the heart can not only cover 21ft, but have the strength, balance, and agility to successfully assault a man.

If you have data to support this claim, PLEASE PROVIDE IT... and don't state Tueller's research.
There is a huge difference between Tueller drill where you have to unholster, aim, and shoot when the attacker is coming from 21ft.
As opposed to shooting someone in the heart at 21ft..
In the case of Tuellers drill by the time you shot the attacker would likely be a MAXIMUM of 5 feet away and likely closer.
NOT 21FT AWAY
As far as documented cases of men fighting 30-60 seconds. I am sure there are many. There are just as many if not more of men going down within a second.
If you want a scientific approach to this, and not a biased sample, you will have to include all documented fatal shots both the meth-heads that won't go down and the fat-asses that can barely walk without breathing heavy. Then you will have a scientific and unbiased sample.
Is it possible to take a shot directly to the heart, cover 21ft, maintain the strength balance and agility to assault a man??? Sure...
Is it likely???
In my opinion NO

Of course opinions are like buttholes...everybody has one.

In this what if scenario, there is no answer...because there is not enough evidence to support an answer. So we can only rely on opinions.

[squinty]

It seems to me the original poster of this thread was turning Tuellers drill from the defense perspective to the attacker.

That was not the intent of the OP.

[Visionz]

It seems to me the original poster of this thread was turning Tuellers drill from the defense perspective to the attacker.

That was not the intent of the OP.

I would not have thought it was the intent if the OP didn't post this..

This all assumes you have your gun drawn and are ready for the attack

Tueller did not assume that in any way ...

[squinty]

It seems to me the original poster of this thread was turning Tuellers drill from the defense perspective to the attacker.

That was not the intent of the OP.

I would not have thought it was the intent if the OP didn't post this..

This all assumes you have your gun drawn and are ready for the attack

Tueller did not assume that in any way ...

Out of context fail. You are deliberately misrepresenting the OP's comments IMO.

[Visionz]

Out of context fail. You are deliberately misrepresenting the OP's comments IMO.

Nothing done deliberately here.
If I am wrong in interpreting the OP, I apologize.
I took it though as..

OP version

attacker shot in the heart--> -------------------21ft------> <--defender

vs

Tueller's drill version

attacker healthy -------------------21ft------> <--defender

again... if I took it the wrong way I apologize

[squinty]

Out of context fail. You are deliberately misrepresenting the OP's comments IMO.

Nothing done deliberately here.
If I am wrong in interpreting the OP, I apologize.
I took it though as..

OP version

attacker shot in the heart--> -------------------21ft------> <--defender

vs

Tueller's drill version

attacker healthy -------------------21ft------> <--defender

again... if I took it the wrong way I apologize

No need to apologize, I shouldn't have been so harsh (esp. since I'm not the OP - he is more than able to defend himself )
I just honestly can't fathom how you interpreted the first post in this thread as being from the standpoint of a gun wielding attacker. I don't see it that way.

The point of the whole "shot in the heart" bit was that an attacker, even if he takes fire from the defender as he advances, may not be stopped immediately. It would go something like:
-Attacker wielding knife makes banzai charge at defender.
-Defender, either because he was on the alert and already drawn, or by preternatural reflexes, puts a round on target against attacker.
-Attacker, though sustaining a wound, manages to cut defender before succumbing to defensive injury. Both parties suffer grave injury or death, defense fail.

Which is another way of saying that firearms aren't magic talismans and don't always work.
One conclusion drawn from Tueller's experiment, if I understand it correctly, was that officer's faced with a suspect armed with a knife or other HTH weapon, were justified in drawing and holding weapons in low ready if the armed suspect was within a 7 meter radius, just in case.

Less leeway for the civilian defender to draw prophylactically, but it happens. Me personally? If an armed man is 21 feet away from me, my first thought would usually be to put him 22 feet away from me, and if that works I'll try for 23, then 24, etc... I'll keep that up 'til I get to waffle house, order hashbrowns and tell the waitress "geez, you shoulda seen this knife wielding nut I met earlier tonight... Scary!" And she'll say "It's ok now honey, do you need some more coffee?"

Edited for spelling: fathim/fathom

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

We also kinda spent the last ten pages arguing the call in the OP vis a vis the definition and application of the Tueller Drill, Visionz. It's kinda been hammered out already but, y'know... whatevs.

I'd advocate having a pistol on the strong side and a fast specialty knife like a TDI or a Bloodshark on the weak side as per the Grey Group and TD Institute for the very reasons Phil_in_CS (who has trained with SouthNarc amongst others) just laid out but that's a largely academic suggestion from where I'm coming from so take it with a grain of salt.

The new knife hate in this thread is kinda irrelevant as well IMHO. No one is saying that knife pwns pistol, just that certain knives (especially ones that are specially designed and mounted for the task) can be drawn and deployed in response to a running/rush attack a lot quicker than most people can draw and deploy a pistol in response to a running/rush attack which is where the Tueller Drill comes into the discussion.

For what it's worth as an example I can draw my TDI from a reverse grip weak side/weak hand mount and get an effective stabbing blow onto a training target in well under .05 seconds and multiple effective stabbing blows in under .08 seconds. My strong hand is still free to do whatever it wants whether that be grappling, striking or clearing a pistol. What's the timing for a good strong hand pistol draw and fire? It's in the 1.5+ second range I'm pretty sure.

And I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination.

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[Murph]

Visionz,
Dude. I HIGHLY suggest if you want to argue what people can or can't do after being shot in the heart, you should start your own thread. Call it "Visionz's Heartstopper Drill" or whatever.

The discussion here is about the Tueller Drill, it's in the fuckin title of the thread. That's what everyone else has been talking about here for pages. So please stop being a turd in the punch bowl. You're just being dense by continuning to bring up something that is not what the discussion is about.

And just to state it ONE MORE TIME, the discussion is about if you can draw you gun before a knife wielding attacker crosses a measured distance and cuts you.

[phil_in_cs]

FWIW, Mythbusters is doing the Tueller Drill this week
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythb ... gn=fbdsc17

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

I wonder if the "taint stab" as popularized by Murph and The_Alias will be featured?

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[Visionz]

Visionz,
Dude. I HIGHLY suggest if you want to argue what people can or can't do after being shot in the heart, you should start your own thread. Call it "Visionz's Heartstopper Drill" or whatever.

The discussion here is about the Tueller Drill, it's in the fuckin title of the thread. That's what everyone else has been talking about here for pages. So please stop being a turd in the punch bowl. You're just being dense by continuning to bring up something that is not what the discussion is about.

And just to state it ONE MORE TIME, the discussion is about if you can draw you gun before a knife wielding attacker crosses a measured distance and cuts you.

Murph,
DUDE, I already apologized if I misinterpreted the OP.
I thought the OP was taking the Tueller Drill a step further and indicating the possibility how far a person can cover with a knife with a direct shot to the heart.
Two things directed me to think that.
1. He referenced physical activity after a fatal shot (Tueller did not do that)
2. Assumption that a gun was drawn and ready to fire (Tueller did not do that either)
Frankly the Tueller Drill is simple and the OP made it more complex.

I am a scientific person. When citing research I DO NOT reference anything outside the research unless I plan on elaborating further, or using the research for my own DIFFERENT experiment.

Frankly I am AMAZED that the thread continued for PAGES before I even put my two cents in if all the OP intended to state was a FACT.
Instead of "Visionz heartstopper thread", maybe I should create a thread about a known fact and see if it gets pages of replies. Maybe call it the "sky is blue thread"

So pardon me for not getting the intent of the OP and injecting some discussion on the matter. I didn't know things had to be so flipping "kum ba yah" and we all should just reply with "good job I agree"
I also didn't know we needed to clutter the forum with a new thread that could just as easilly be discussed here.
Finally I didn't know that a few written words on a screen could drive a man to post vulgarities.
Sure I say them ... I just have the etiquette not to post them in forums
Stay classy dude... Stay classy

[Murph]

Does vulgarity fuckin bother you?

We're all adults here, right?

Anyways, you're pretty new here, so it's okay if you don't get how things work around here. Sometimes, this forum is just not the right fit for certain people. It's okay.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Visionz,
Dude. I HIGHLY suggest if you want to argue what people can or can't do after being shot in the heart, you should start your own thread. Call it "Visionz's Heartstopper Drill" or whatever.

The discussion here is about the Tueller Drill, it's in the fuckin title of the thread. That's what everyone else has been talking about here for pages. So please stop being a turd in the punch bowl. You're just being dense by continuning to bring up something that is not what the discussion is about.

And just to state it ONE MORE TIME, the discussion is about if you can draw you gun before a knife wielding attacker crosses a measured distance and cuts you.

Murph,
DUDE, I already apologized if I misinterpreted the OP.
I thought the OP was taking the Tueller Drill a step further and indicating the possibility how far a person can cover with a knife with a direct shot to the heart.
Two things directed me to think that.
1. He referenced physical activity after a fatal shot (Tueller did not do that)
2. Assumption that a gun was drawn and ready to fire (Tueller did not do that either)
Frankly the Tueller Drill is simple and the OP made it more complex.

I am a scientific person. When citing research I DO NOT reference anything outside the research unless I plan on elaborating further, or using the research for my own DIFFERENT experiment.

Frankly I am AMAZED that the thread continued for PAGES before I even put my two cents in if all the OP intended to state was a FACT.
Instead of "Visionz heartstopper thread", maybe I should create a thread about a known fact and see if it gets pages of replies. Maybe call it the "sky is blue thread"

So pardon me for not getting the intent of the OP and injecting some discussion on the matter. I didn't know things had to be so flipping "kum ba yah" and we all should just reply with "good job I agree"
I also didn't know we needed to clutter the forum with a new thread that could just as easilly be discussed here.
Finally I didn't know that a few written words on a screen could drive a man to post vulgarities.
Sure I say them ... I just have the etiquette not to post them in forums
Stay classy dude... Stay classy

Dude, respectfully you might have some comprehension issues.

Read all ten pages, shit was discussed.

No it wasn't the best of OP's, we know that. Ancient history and all that - you'll see.

Just sayin'.

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