Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot rule)

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by flsgear » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:11 pm

**** WARNING -- extremely GRAPHIC pictures in below link!

http://www.ppss-group.com/blog/cut-resi ... essionals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just found this article online, it's new and relevant to the topic. Maybe cut resistant clothing isn't a bad idea to have on hand, eh? I wonder if it'll stop a zombie bite?

Those pictures tell a hell of a story.

*edit - no, I don't have a business affiliation with these people, and I apologize for the obvious ad placement inside of the article. But it's still worth a look.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by flsgear » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:41 pm

Also - happened across something by a guy named Fairbaines who apparently was famous for knife fighting. Reading through his knife fighting manuscript (which it seems was never published). It reads a lot like what I was taught in Kombatan. Anywho - this particular segment stuck out.
"A" An opponent, armed with a knife, should never be allowed to approach within five feet. At that distance, or less, he is a very dangerous man. (This is not so difficult to understand when you realize that the length of a man's arm, plus the knife, is approximately three feet, thus leaving only two feet to be covered to make contact with the knife on your person.) There are two ways of dealing with such a situation -

1st. IF YOU ARE ARMED - shoot him before he is within five feet distance.

2nd. IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - turn and run.

Note - Fear will most likely give you that additional speed to out-distance your opponent
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by gelgoog » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:00 pm

flsgear wrote:**** WARNING -- extremely GRAPHIC pictures in below link!

http://www.ppss-group.com/blog/cut-resi ... essionals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just found this article online, it's new and relevant to the topic. Maybe cut resistant clothing isn't a bad idea to have on hand, eh? I wonder if it'll stop a zombie bite?

Those pictures tell a hell of a story.

*edit - no, I don't have a business affiliation with these people, and I apologize for the obvious ad placement inside of the article. But it's still worth a look.
the cut up gentleman in those photos was a correctional officer who got sliced up by an inmate. I got to see all the photos of that set during my POST training...and they are pretty gruesome.

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by squinty » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:55 pm

flsgear wrote:Also - happened across something by a guy named Fairbaines who apparently was famous for knife fighting. Reading through his knife fighting manuscript (which it seems was never published). It reads a lot like what I was taught in Kombatan. Anywho - this particular segment stuck out.
"A" An opponent, armed with a knife, should never be allowed to approach within five feet. At that distance, or less, he is a very dangerous man. (This is not so difficult to understand when you realize that the length of a man's arm, plus the knife, is approximately three feet, thus leaving only two feet to be covered to make contact with the knife on your person.) There are two ways of dealing with such a situation -

1st. IF YOU ARE ARMED - shoot him before he is within five feet distance.

2nd. IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - turn and run.

Note - Fear will most likely give you that additional speed to out-distance your opponent
Fairbairn, of Fairbairn-Sykes fame? Quite the venerable source.
A couple quibbles with the great man's advice:

Yes, if someone is trying to stab you, of course you should shoot him before he's within arm's reach, but this whole thread is about how much easier said than done such a task might be. If you've already drawn, maybe not as difficult but from a holster - difficult. Maybe the lesson is to draw and come to a ready position if you see a guy within 7 yards of you, with a knife, giving credible hostile signals. Draw to a ready stance, or have a hand on the weapon beneath your cover garment. Don't wait for him to start charging or otherwise closing distance with you. If possible, vacate the guy's presence forthwith - the advice to get away is spot on.

For present day, US/First world civilians, it's not likely we'll know our attacker has a knife - or is an attacker! - until he's in that 5 feet zone already. Situational awareness ftw, but I bet the typical knife attack - if the attacker's serious - will be a sneakier one.

I wish fear made me superhuman or motivated me the way it seems to motivate others, but no matter how scared I get, it's more disabling than helpful. I don't get extra clarity of focus, enhanced strength or stamina, nor does adrenaline help me run faster. All I get, when I get scared, is scared. If I turn and run (and I may) I'll be awfully worried that I've given my unprotected back to my attacker.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by tarafore » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:34 am

Reading thru this, i'm wondering if this might be an argument for carrying pepper spray in the weak hand. It can be discretely carried ready to spray, and give more range (and, theoretically, effectiveness) than a punch. This would be in addition to, not instead of, a handgun.

Is this useful, or am I way off-base?
(I'm no expert)

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by gelgoog » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:35 am

tarafore wrote:Reading thru this, i'm wondering if this might be an argument for carrying pepper spray in the weak hand. It can be discretely carried ready to spray, and give more range (and, theoretically, effectiveness) than a punch. This would be in addition to, not instead of, a handgun.

Is this useful, or am I way off-base?
(I'm no expert)
CS takes too long to employ and it is only an irritant, not a fight stopper. I would not want to give up a free hand to use it.

We had a guy on our tier hyped up on meth who refused to return to his cell. So we ICS in an covered him head to toe with CS using a gas gun, peppered him with beanbag rounds and it still took several officers to restrain him. When your life is on the line, less-lethals are not something you should rely on.

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by Murph » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:36 am

tarafore wrote:Reading thru this, i'm wondering if this might be an argument for carrying pepper spray in the weak hand. It can be discretely carried ready to spray, and give more range (and, theoretically, effectiveness) than a punch. This would be in addition to, not instead of, a handgun.

Is this useful, or am I way off-base?
(I'm no expert)
Food for thought: If someone is coming at you with a lethal weapon, do you want to employ a less-than-lethal weapon as your 1st line of defense?
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by OldSchool45b » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:27 pm

Murph wrote:Food for thought: If someone is coming at you with a lethal weapon, do you want to employ a less-than-lethal weapon as your 1st line of defense?
If someone has already taken the encounter to a deadly force situation, why would you go in with a less than equal response? If I have mere seconds to respond I am going to do so on equal footing. It may be my only opportunity to respond on a level playing field.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by Biggin » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:40 pm

Even if you hit someone with pepper spray, there will still probably be a physical confrontation in which case you're going to get that pepper spray on you. I've seen OC make 6'5 250lb men cry but I've also seen people get sprayed then continue towards a target and beat the shit out of them.

This video comes to mind.... it also shows that it takes more than one pistol round to stop someone and hits other than to the upper chest/head/pelvis might as well be misses.


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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by tarafore » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:33 pm

OldSchool45b wrote:
Murph wrote:Food for thought: If someone is coming at you with a lethal weapon, do you want to employ a less-than-lethal weapon as your 1st line of defense?
If someone has already taken the encounter to a deadly force situation, why would you go in with a less than equal response? If I have mere seconds to respond I am going to do so on equal footing. It may be my only opportunity to respond on a level playing field.
We've sheen that just drawing a gun, esp from concealment, is too slow in many of these cases. The question is, in that situation, is pepper spray better than an empty hand?

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by AKFTW » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:21 pm

tarafore wrote:
OldSchool45b wrote:
Murph wrote:Food for thought: If someone is coming at you with a lethal weapon, do you want to employ a less-than-lethal weapon as your 1st line of defense?
If someone has already taken the encounter to a deadly force situation, why would you go in with a less than equal response? If I have mere seconds to respond I am going to do so on equal footing. It may be my only opportunity to respond on a level playing field.
We've sheen that just drawing a gun, esp from concealment, is too slow in many of these cases. The question is, in that situation, is pepper spray better than an empty hand?

How would you be able to draw and use pepper spray faster than your gun? And your weak hand could be far better employed by attempting to block their attack, giving you an extra second to get to your gun.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by fourway » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:55 pm

A number of turn of the century NYC gangs (most of them stevedores) carried T handle hooks in the hand at all times.
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If you aren't willing to just walk around with your gun drawn all the time, something like that might help.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by tarafore » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:48 pm

AKFTW wrote:
tarafore wrote:
OldSchool45b wrote:
Murph wrote:Food for thought: If someone is coming at you with a lethal weapon, do you want to employ a less-than-lethal weapon as your 1st line of defense?
If someone has already taken the encounter to a deadly force situation, why would you go in with a less than equal response? If I have mere seconds to respond I am going to do so on equal footing. It may be my only opportunity to respond on a level playing field.
We've sheen that just drawing a gun, esp from concealment, is too slow in many of these cases. The question is, in that situation, is pepper spray better than an empty hand?

How would you be able to draw and use pepper spray faster than your gun? And your weak hand could be far better employed by attempting to block their attack, giving you an extra second to get to your gun.
My suggestion was, in higher alert situations, to have the pepper spray in hand, ready. This can bye done discreetly and won't cause a panic even if it is noticed. You can't walk around with a drawn gun like that.

It may indeed be better to have the hand free for grabbing (closed hand blocks are still possible with the pepper spry in hand), but asking how I could draw pepper spray faster than a gun is sort of a strawman. Civilians can't walk around with drawn guns. We can walk around with ready pepper spray. The question is, should we?

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by AKFTW » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:07 pm

tarafore wrote:It may indeed be better to have the hand free for grabbing (closed hand blocks are still possible with the pepper spry in hand), but asking how I could draw pepper spray faster than a gun is sort of a strawman. Civilians can't walk around with drawn guns. We can walk around with ready pepper spray. The question is, should we?

I guess if I thought I was in a situation where I was about to get into a knife fight, I would get my hand as close to my gun as possible and egress immediately, creating distance between the potential attacker, and putting obstacles in the way, such as walking into a crowd, around a guardrail or fence, or whatever. Pepper spray will not help in a close range knife fight, no way no how. Anyone who is going to run up and stab you from 21 feet or closer without making a threat verbally first is out for blood, and a little concentrated hot sauce in a squirt bottle is not going to change their mind.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by TDW586 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:25 pm

I've got to disagree, it absolutely is going to help in certain situations. Have you ever been sprayed? The way you dismiss OC as mildly irritating makes me think you haven't.

OC is extremely useful if you've got someone threatening you, knife or not. Even as a civilian, if someone approaches you in a way that makes you fear an attack, you attempt to move away and/or tell them to back away and they continue advancing, as long as you can articulate why you feared an attack you can legally justify using OC preemptively, before the attack starts.

I'm not saying you can spray anyone who speaks to you, common sense applies and you've got to be familiar with the law and capable of articulating why you felt threatened.

If you can OC someone in the hostile interview pre-attack phase, you've given yourself a significant advantage if they do press the attack.

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by Dave_M » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:51 pm

One can most decidedly become resistant to OC spray. I made a thread several years ago where myself and an LEO brother decided to try and indeed it worked out in our favor in regard to reaction times.

Now, whether this was because we knew what to expect or because of actual recovery times I do not know; either way, the more we OC'd each other the better we were conditioned or trained with what OC spray brought... Funny stories came from LEO training on this one, I promise...
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by TDW586 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:53 pm

Resistance to OC spray is definately real, but you never get over the impaired vision and some difficulty breathing. You can function through it, if you've experienced it many times, but you won't be operating at 100%.

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by OldSchool45b » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:37 pm

I am curious how many people here have ever had any kind of deadly force encounter training. There are lots of comments floating that are addressed in these classes and most of it boils down to broadening your sensory net. Just like LEO/Military do. If someone gets the drop on you that you didn't notice you wont have time to get your gun or pepper spray, and now it is hand to hand. But by being aware, you can spot things that are tell tales of trouble. I'm not going into all the nitty gritty, but we cover it extensively in our defensive pistol classes. But most of this crap is addressed extensively, and drilled in real world applications and videos of deadly force encounters.

You guys can what if this to death, but you REALLY need to shop around and get some quality training from a reputable instructor. The what if'ing and what about's are not going to get you the answers you need and this subject is not something to take lightly if it is of real concern for you. And if you ever do need it, "I heard it online" will not be a viable defense where as quality training from a reputable instructor will be an asset in your defense or interview with the police. Also, there are some states where pepper spray is not legal to carry while a gun is with a CCW, or you need a CCW to carry pepper spray. Stupid but it "keeps" the criminals from carrying it to blind victims so they can rob them. Seriously, that is the justification that many municipalities have used.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by KentsOkay » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:20 pm

All of this makes me want to carry a hammerless revolver in a front coat pocket, and have my hand on the gun constantly if threat level is high.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by JTNieman » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:55 pm

Training with Tom Givens went smashingly as usual. I had a chance to talk to him about the level of conduct statistically encountered by civillian, non-LEO, regular citizens like myself.

He said that in Memphis where the bulk of his research is centered at, as well as the surrounding data that hits his radar, it just isn't a statistically significant figure where a person in America holds you up with a knife. "It's fucking America. Everyone has a fucking gun," and no one with a gun gets close enough to french kiss you, they get two arms lengths away so they're close enough to take your wallet when you hold it out for them.

He has had two students of the now-57 of his who have been in actual physical contact with their attackers. One was a home break-in where they happened to bump into eachother coming around a hallway corner after the homeowner investigated the noise of the back door explodign inward. The homeowner, gun in hand, managed to take his non-dom hand, swat the assailants gun downward, taking a shot to the foot, and unloading into the assailants chest, killing him.

The other case was a chance where a crazy repeat-offender was ont he other side of a gas pump island, cussing and confronting the victim, multiple times, while the modest and optimistic victim tried to convince the assailant that he had him mixed up with someone else. When the victim turned around to tend to his gas flap, the assailant cracked him with a sap, and when the assailant crossed over to deliver a killing blow, the victim had the clarity of mind to draw his firearm and deliver 3 shots under his arm pit, behind him, to the attacker. The first two shots landed dead center of chest, and the third sailed away as the assailant spun away and died.

We discussed both of those two cases in the normal coursework, mainly under the lessons of 1) "Always have a gun, even at home, and think quickly." and 2) "Don't wonder why he wants to kill you, just accept that he apparently wants you dead for whatever reason. Whether it be that mommy didn't hold him enough, or too much, or he had a bad day at work, or he mistook you for another... you shouldn't care, you should only evade, defuse, or take care of it as best you can. His reality is pure reality to him. Your reality means nothing." - those scenarios ended up being the only two Tom Givens has record of citizens being in physical contact with the assailants in the normal course of daily routine, amongst his students.

The other statistical anomalies ended up being the situation where guy goes into bar, things are rowdy and guy ends up being stabbed by asshole drunk who perceived a slight or offense or just randomly wanted to know what it's like to stab someone (again, who cares the reason, all that matters is intent to maim or murder) so Tom then falls back the idea of "Well if it's a bar that you might get stabbed in amongst a tight crowd of people... don't fucking go there." That opens up the other can of worms that ends up in a Catch-22 of "Well we never know when we'll get stabbed," and "Well, I don't want to stop living life simply because things are dangerous..." but I'm firmly of the belief that there is a middle ground which leaves us safe, defensible, and still enjoying life and sociability.

As for the Tueller drill, I didn't ask him about the drill specifically, however he did mention that shooting from retention is a must for some situations. Using the support hand to violently shove an attacker away and drawing immediately and firing from retention is a skill that must be learned. He reports that it's mainly police and especially undercovers that end up using that tactic though, as they're the only ones typically close enough to require the contact. However, when necessary, it works. His method of firing from retention is not what Murph called the "Speed Rock" but it is about halfway between #2 and #3. It's not shooting from in front of the chest, or the pec, where you index the gun, but it's also not from JUST over the holster. It appeared to be with his hand at the base of his rib cage, sort of as an additional index point, before putting that muzzle forward.

I did not get a chance to take pictures of me taking a target from 3-4 feet (arms length and in) to prove grouping and shot placement. I'll see what I can do about that after work some day this week, on our test firing range, after-hours, if it is so desired.

However, without statistically significant support to refute Tom Givens claim to the probability of requiring a knife fight, tackling, or other physical encounter of the kind, I kind of have to logically lean towards his advice, as the only researched and well educated expert on the subject. I keep the Baton Rouge and Lafayette felony ticker on my internet feed, and keep up on some of the violent crimes, and I do have to say that it seems to always be armed robberies, murders, and armed assaults performed from conversational distance, and no make-out distance.

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Re: Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 fo

Post by TDW586 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:59 pm

OldSchool45b wrote:I am curious how many people here have ever had any kind of deadly force encounter training. There are lots of comments floating that are addressed in these classes and most of it boils down to broadening your sensory net. Just like LEO/Military do. If someone gets the drop on you that you didn't notice you wont have time to get your gun or pepper spray, and now it is hand to hand. But by being aware, you can spot things that are tell tales of trouble. I'm not going into all the nitty gritty, but we cover it extensively in our defensive pistol classes. But most of this crap is addressed extensively, and drilled in real world applications and videos of deadly force encounters.

You guys can what if this to death, but you REALLY need to shop around and get some quality training from a reputable instructor. The what if'ing and what about's are not going to get you the answers you need and this subject is not something to take lightly if it is of real concern for you. And if you ever do need it, "I heard it online" will not be a viable defense where as quality training from a reputable instructor will be an asset in your defense or interview with the police. Also, there are some states where pepper spray is not legal to carry while a gun is with a CCW, or you need a CCW to carry pepper spray. Stupid but it "keeps" the criminals from carrying it to blind victims so they can rob them. Seriously, that is the justification that many municipalities have used.
Thanks for the condescending rant which assumes no one here is trained. I'll be sure to take your pistol classes, I'm sure you're a great instructor with your condescending, holier than thou, what a stupid question attitude. Good luck with that.

Who, exactly, are you addressing with this post?

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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by OldSchool45b » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:43 am

That assumption comes from a lot of the comments here. Your feeling that I was directing it at you is very telling.... :lol: But have you been trained, if so by who? It wasn't meant to be condescending, but I'm glad you took it that way. I wouldn't have you in one of our classes. You are obviously a SME on sitting around the net, arguing and worrying more about weather someone is insulting you than going out and looking for training. Your comments reflect the fact that you don't have training, maybe some military but that is a WHOLE lot different than civilian training. I was an 0311, and it doesn't do much to prepare you for the civilian world. Your attitude is A typical of boots coming into the FMF that we see overseas assigned to guard out FOB's and firebases. When you get out, get some real training. For this world, not the FMF in the desert. THAT was condescending....
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by TDW586 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:19 am

EDITED: Why am I arguing with a small arms repair tech? Hey man, I'm sorry you think I'm a stupid boot (I'm a Sergeant, and I left active duty last year), and I'm sure you're well trained. Enjoy your day, have a good one.
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Re: Bringing a knife to a gunfight- Tueller Drill (21 foot r

Post by the_alias » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:54 am

JamesCannon wrote:A buncha interesting stuff
Focusing your limited time on training what is likely to happen based on your surroundings is important and valid. There is a reason I'm not putting the majority of time into practicing dealing with a mugger trying to rob me with a handgun - statistically it isn't as likely here as knife crime would be.

Related anecdote - when I was on holiday in Boston I ended up in an area with my friend and she said something along the lines of "This is the kind of area you might get stabbed" - I replied "Don't you mean shot?" and her response was "Oh no this area is poor enough that knives would probably be used". :lol:
Man is a beast of prey

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