Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

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Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by FlashDaddy » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:16 pm

So I've been thinking about applying for a federal Collector of Curios and Relics license, FFL/03, for years. I recently got off my lazy butt and did it. It sure was painless. I downloaded the PDF application at the BTFE website http://www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/, filled it out, printed it out and mailed it, and a personal check for $30, to the Bureau, with a copy to my local police chief (no check for him). I got my license back in the mail exactly four weeks after I sent it in! That was fast.

I made copies of the unsigned license and put the original in a very safe place. I sign each copy as I send it out to companies that sell curio and relic firearms on the internet. Places like JGsales.com, aimsurplus.com, wideners.com, etc. And now I can just order C&R firearms right off their websites and they ship it right to my house. I have to keep a written entry of each one I get in and any that I transfer out, in a bound book. There's info on how to do it at the BTFE site. So, I wish I hadn't waited so long. Other than that, its great. So if you've been thinking about it, get off the dime and do it!
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by carolinafan » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:25 pm

I've got the forms on my computer, just haven't filled them out or anything. You may have just given me the push I needed. That, and the nifty SKS I found online a few days ago :)
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Bearcat » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:21 pm

So if you have to keep records, does that mean you are dealer/seller strictly for curio and relic weapons? Or is this license for personal use only?
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by carolinafan » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:30 pm

You have to keep track of every firearm you buy or get rid of in your binder. You can't do anything like operate a business though, the license is only for your personal collection.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by FlashDaddy » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:34 pm

Bearcat wrote:So if you have to keep records, does that mean you are dealer/seller strictly for curio and relic weapons? Or is this license for personal use only?
It is not for business. You use it to enhance your collection. You can sell and trade curios with it as long as you are doing it to enhance your collection.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Trebor » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:38 pm

carolinafan wrote:You have to keep track of every firearm you buy or get rid of in your binder.
You have to maintain a "bound book" log of all C&R firearms you acquire during the time you have the license (even if you didn't use the license to acquire them) and have to also record any C&R firearms you dispose of during the time you have the license. If you sell a C&R firearm that you acquired before you had the C&R license you DO have to "log it out" in your C&R bound book. (You put something like "acquired before C&R licensure" in the "acquisition" field and then "log it out" as normal)

You are NOT required to record details of non-C&R firearms you buy or sell in your C&R bound book at any time.
You can't do anything like operate a business though, the license is only for your personal collection.
Correct. The C&R allows you to receive C&R firearms shipped directly to you and avoid involving a transfer dealer. (Some states don't allow this though). You also get the "FFL discount" at Brownells, Midway, etc.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Bearcat » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:05 pm

Do you have to log the price you pay and sell them for and who you sold them too as well?
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by carolinafan » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:00 pm

Trebor wrote:
You are NOT required to record details of non-C&R firearms you buy or sell in your C&R bound book at any time.
Sorry, I should have specified C&R firearms :)
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by darius379 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:37 am

Does this allow you to only have shipped c and r weapons or any fireArm u can buy online?
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by FlashDaddy » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:19 am

Bearcat wrote:Do you have to log the price you pay and sell them for and who you sold them too as well?
Nope. The atf site has a link to what you need to record but it doesnt include price.
darius379 wrote:Does this allow you to only have shipped c and r weapons or any fireArm u can buy online?
It is just C&R firearms, bcz the license is just for collecting.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by darius379 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:31 pm

Thx well my ffl fees at bass pro 50 and gander mountain down the street told me they wont accept ar or ak
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by wguy00 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:38 pm

Trebor wrote: You have to maintain a "bound book" log of all C&R firearms you acquire during the time you have the license (even if you didn't use the license to acquire them) and have to also record any C&R firearms you dispose of during the time you have the license. If you sell a C&R firearm that you acquired before you had the C&R license you DO have to "log it out" in your C&R bound book. (You put something like "acquired before C&R licensure" in the "acquisition" field and then "log it out" as normal).
Do you have a reference point for this? I have my C&R and everyone you ask tells you a different story. Some say you do, some say you don't.
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Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Equuleus » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:40 pm

wguy00 wrote:Do you have a reference point for this? I have my C&R and everyone you ask tells you a different story. Some say you do, some say you don't.
(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall—

From: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... .6&idno=27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also:

Q: Are licensed collectors required to execute ATF Form 4473 for transactions in curio or relic firearms?
No. Licensed collectors are only required to keep a “bound book” record.

[27 CFR 478.125(f)]

From: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios- ... tification" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope this helps clear everything up for you.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Trebor » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:25 pm

wguy00 wrote:
Trebor wrote: You have to maintain a "bound book" log of all C&R firearms you acquire during the time you have the license (even if you didn't use the license to acquire them) and have to also record any C&R firearms you dispose of during the time you have the license. If you sell a C&R firearm that you acquired before you had the C&R license you DO have to "log it out" in your C&R bound book. (You put something like "acquired before C&R licensure" in the "acquisition" field and then "log it out" as normal).
Do you have a reference point for this? I have my C&R and everyone you ask tells you a different story. Some say you do, some say you don't.
Equuleus gave you the actual ATF language. If anyone tells you anything different, they are wrong.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Paladin1 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:59 pm

Trebor wrote: Correct. The C&R allows you to receive C&R firearms shipped directly to you and avoid involving a transfer dealer. (Some states don't allow this though). You also get the "FFL discount" at Brownells, Midway, etc.
Does these discounts at various vendors apply to other items or guns that are not C&R?
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by TheLastOne » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:18 pm

What kind of firearms are considered c&r?
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Crazy Wolf » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:24 am

TheLastOne wrote:What kind of firearms are considered c&r?
From the ATF website:
To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for a formal classification.

Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA. If your C&R item is an NFA firearm (e.g., Winchester Trappers) and you desire removal from the NFA status, you must submit it to FTB for evaluation and a formal classification.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Trebor » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:50 am

Paladin1 wrote:
Trebor wrote: Correct. The C&R allows you to receive C&R firearms shipped directly to you and avoid involving a transfer dealer. (Some states don't allow this though). You also get the "FFL discount" at Brownells, Midway, etc.
Does these discounts at various vendors apply to other items or guns that are not C&R?

Each vendor makes their own policy on what discounts, if any, they give to C&R holders.

Both Brownells and Midway though give C&R holders the same discount a FFL dealer gets. That's pretty sweet. That's on anything that they already discount to FFL holders.

There are other vendors who may also give discounts. I don't hae a comprehensive list. What you do is send a copy of your C&R to the various vendors and ask to be put on their mailing list and to keep your C&R on file. If they offer a discount to C&R holders they'll tell you.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by wguy00 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:41 pm

Equuleus wrote:
wguy00 wrote:Do you have a reference point for this? I have my C&R and everyone you ask tells you a different story. Some say you do, some say you don't.
(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall—

From: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... .6&idno=27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also:

Q: Are licensed collectors required to execute ATF Form 4473 for transactions in curio or relic firearms?
No. Licensed collectors are only required to keep a “bound book” record.

[27 CFR 478.125(f)]

From: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios- ... tification" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope this helps clear everything up for you.
Thank you. Much appreciated.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Paladin1 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:18 pm

Trebor wrote:
Paladin1 wrote:
Trebor wrote: Correct. The C&R allows you to receive C&R firearms shipped directly to you and avoid involving a transfer dealer. (Some states don't allow this though). You also get the "FFL discount" at Brownells, Midway, etc.
Does these discounts at various vendors apply to other items or guns that are not C&R?

Each vendor makes their own policy on what discounts, if any, they give to C&R holders.

Both Brownells and Midway though give C&R holders the same discount a FFL dealer gets. That's pretty sweet. That's on anything that they already discount to FFL holders.

There are other vendors who may also give discounts. I don't hae a comprehensive list. What you do is send a copy of your C&R to the various vendors and ask to be put on their mailing list and to keep your C&R on file. If they offer a discount to C&R holders they'll tell you.
Thanks for the tip!
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Coal-Cracker » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:54 am

Trebor wrote:...

Both Brownells and Midway though give C&R holders the same discount a FFL dealer gets. That's pretty sweet. That's on anything that they already discount to FFL holders.
...
Those two discounts right there pay for my license fees many times over.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Slugg » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:02 am

So how do you guys interpret "for your collection only" ?

Example: I buy a dozen mosins at a discounted rate, I sell 10 of them for a $20 profit and buy a $200 C & R SKS with the money made. That's technically funding my hobby, but that can be seen as running an illegitimate business too.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:26 am

Slugg wrote:So how do you guys interpret "for your collection only" ?

Example: I buy a dozen mosins at a discounted rate, I sell 10 of them for a $20 profit and buy a $200 C & R SKS with the money made. That's technically funding my hobby, but that can be seen as running an illegitimate business too.
That's the latter. Here's my rule of thumb. IF ATF were to come to you and say "John Smith says you're dealing firearms under the table. Can we see your books?" Are you gonna start sweating? When I had my license, there was a gentleman who would buy 5 or 6 lowers every two months. Everything checked out, but I had a feeling by the second batch that something was amiss. Two months later he had an FFL. His recounting was that the ATF got a tip (not from me, possibly from FDLE since he was buying from other dealers as well) and asked what he had done with the lowers, police trade-in Glocks from another dealer, and all the various AR parts he'd bought from several others. He was...encouraged to go ahead and get his FFL. Again, this was secondhand, but remember ATF is under DOJ, but they're a tax entity first and foremost.

OTOH, if I were to buy a crate of Mosins for the novelty of it or as an investment, and sold them off a few years later, I'd be fine, at least according to the gentleman I spoke to about buying as an investment. It's my understanding that investment buying is an understood part of a C&R. It's unfortunately kind of a gray area. If I were you, and you could buy a crate or two, I'd do it. Fish out a few you really like and plan on keeping them. Sock the rest away. They make fun (and used to be) cheap birthday gifts for close friends or kids. If the prices rise over the next few years, sell them off, just make sure your books are in order.

And goddammit stop talking about C&Rs. It's hard enough to resist getting mine as it is. I don't make nearly enough to afford the ability to mail-order classic firearms.
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Re: Applying for C&R FFL03 License: Easy and Fast

Post by yossarian » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:54 am

Our interpretation is meaningless. Fortunately the ATF isn't known for it's arbitrary and capricious enforcement of its innumerable regulations. Wait, what color is sarcasm supposed to be again?


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