New PERMANENT gun ban

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dat45auto
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by dat45auto » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:25 pm

Folks,

Please keep this in mind! There are no checks and balances starting Jan 20, 2009. This country is going to be run by Socialist/Commies Barrack Husein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed, John Kerry, and Deval Patrick and others of their ilk. Enough said??????

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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by spacecase0 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:28 pm

tilt wrote:I think a good majority of people (myself included at one point a while back) fail to realize is that this sort of thing is a slippery slope, a 'gateway law' if you will.

If the most menial law passes limiting firearms (or related products), the next 'menial' law will be that much easier, then the next, then the next, etc.

Then, after many, many years and administrations and rulings, it will end... with a whimper.
it happened in england, they have gone all the way down that slippery slope.
if you are lucky you will got to keep what you had already,
but not talking about it is the key to keeping them in that kind of suppression.

it could happen in the USA, but it would be fought very hard.
a zombie outbreak or other major apocalypse would really end all of this
and might be a great way to get rid of all the ridiculous laws they always seem to try and pass.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Wolfdude87 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:31 pm

dat45auto wrote:Folks,

Please keep this in mind! There are no checks and balances starting Jan 20, 2009. This country is going to be run by Socialist/Commies Barrack Husein Pancake, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed, John Kerry, and Deval Patrick and others of their ilk. Enough said??????
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Paladin1 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:33 pm

IMO, the worst that could happen is a reinstatement of the AWB. There was backlash from the first AWB and they don't want to lose the new found majority, theres a huge number of voting gun owners, and there's bigger fish to fry.

Not that I'm happy with that idea. but as a gun guy, I already have what I need, emphasis on need.
If the gun laws go south, we just keep voting, lobbying against them.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Shadowsbane » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:33 pm

dat45auto wrote:Folks,

Please keep this in mind! There are no checks and balances starting Jan 20, 2009. The country is going to be run be Socialist/Commies Barrack Husein Pancake, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed, John Kerry, and Deval Patrick and others of their ilk. Enough said??????

You know there is a very fine line between sarcasm and sounding like the king moon bat from planetmoonbatia.

You sir tapdanced on that line very well. Contratulations. :lol:

Also. The following link is an interesting paper on how the slippery-slope argument worked out through the enaction of gunlaws in Great Britian, and also a comparison of those same trends in the United States.

Long read, and a bit dated, but pretty well resourced from what I can tell.

http://www.guncite.com/journals/okslip.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Paladin1 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:34 pm

dat45auto wrote:Folks,

Please keep this in mind! There are no checks and balances starting Jan 20, 2009. This country is going to be run by Socialist/Commies Barrack Husein Pancake, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed, John Kerry, and Deval Patrick and others of their ilk. Enough said??????

You sir, are freaking out. Please change your underwear and calm down.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by paperclip » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:45 pm

It's funny too that just talking about gun legislation makes people buy more guns, in a way that is exactly opposite of the intent. I saw it happen during Clinton's tenure with the AWB of '94. In fact, some of the nuttier crowd said he approved the ban BECAUSE he wanted more firearms in the people's hand to deter foriegn invaders. And to help the Chinese sell more guns!
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by PistolPete » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:55 pm

dat45auto wrote:Folks,

Please keep this in mind! There are no checks and balances starting Jan 20, 2009. This country is going to be run by Socialist/Commies Barrack Husein Pancake, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed, John Kerry, and Deval Patrick and others of their ilk. Enough said??????
Wow, take a moment to read our rules here. This post breaks both the "no political discussion" and the "flame baiting" rules. Consider this an official warning. If you continue to post in this manner, your time here will not be long.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Necrowerx » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:26 pm

I see both sides of this issue of "panic" vs "preparedness".
On one hand, I hate the "slippery slope" tactic used in political debate; both sides use it to death and usually it's not much more than a groundless FUD tactic to push an opposing agenda.
On the other hand, it does sometimes happen; the AWB is already permanent in my state. I dare any of you to just try and legally buy an M1, SKS, AR-15, FN-FAL, or AK-47 in New Jersey. Good fucking luck. You can't even buy a suppressor here, or a pistol grip shotty, for that matter.

So, it's already happened on a smaller scale, and NJ isn't alone.

Dat45auto brings up one VERY valid point (partisan digs aside) - the checks and balances in Washington will be gone starting next year, albeit with one lone exception - the SCOTUS, which is currently self balanced with 4 conservatives, 4 liberals, and one more or less "centered" justice. Many of those justices will be nearing retirement soon, and Pres Pancake will likely be the one to replace them as he sees fit, making it a single party clean sweep of our federal government. Dems tend to view European countries as progressive role models, including their attitude on civilian owned firearms.
It's kinda funny that some of you are panicking, while others are so complacent. I think we just need to be on our toes.
Being that I'm a pretty centered guy myself politically, I'm not bitter about the election, but I do think gun rights are going to take a hit in the near future.

And of course, there's the common sense bit that states, "Outlaw guns and only outlaws (and cops) will have guns" which should be obvious; once you introduce guns into a society, you cannot remove them. Ever. It would be a massive mistake to try. I hope the 111th Congress realizes this.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by gelgoog » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:48 pm

I say you should just buy as many guns as fast as you can to deter cost, especially ammo.

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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Rilo » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:52 pm

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: What is -- what is reasonable about a total ban on possession?
That's on page 18, line 17 of the oral arguments transcript from D.C. v. Heller.

The case really is worth reading, both the oral arguments and the decision. A lot of good points by the Justices and quite enlightening in terms of the historical context. Bottom line is that it has been held that the Second Amendment guarantees the individual right to bear arms ("in common use at the time" per US v. Miller, also noted as "in common use for lawful purposes"). That means that a total ban is not reasonable restriction.

I'm certainly concerned about a resurgence of the AWB but to suggest we may be heading towards a total ban, as has been implied, is a little bit of a stretch in my humble opinion. We certainly need to be advocates for our rights, but I don't think we'll be seeing any constitutional amendments repealing the rights guaranteed by the Second (ratification of an amendment is no easy bar to jump).


For your reading pleasure if you are a Supreme Court junkie like me:

Oral Argument
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_argu ... 07-290.pdf
Decision
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf


Also, the relevant text from the Obama/Biden campaign has been removed from the change.gov site but still remains on the BarackObama.com site. FWIW I am attempting only to show the information as presented by the President-Elect. I oppose the policy articulated below but if crafted appropriately it's very possible it would not contradict the Supreme Court decision in Heller.
Address Gun Violence in Cities: As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals who shouldn't have them. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent, as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets.

from
http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/ur ... nforcement


I've bought some pmags and a few XD 16 rounders, but that's it for my panic buying. There are some decent deals over on ar15.com for the windowed PMags.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Lodewijk » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:54 pm

Hey Rilo, is there anywhere I can get ahold of a hard copy of the DC vs. Heller decision? I'm a SCOTUS nub and my office will definitely notice if I run them out of copy-machine paper.
ironraven wrote:I could really use about five grand of disposable income right now. An AR, an AK, a tricked out shotgun, a couple pistols, and few thousand rounds.
+1.

To be fair, I could have used those things at any and all points of my 25-year existence, not just now.

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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Rilo » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:02 pm

Lodewijk wrote:Hey Rilo, is there anywhere I can get ahold of a hard copy of the DC vs. Heller decision? I'm a SCOTUS nub and my office will definitely notice if I run them out of copy-machine paper.
Not that I'm aware of. Just print two pages per sheet, front and back. It'll only be 40 pages :wink: .
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Space Jockey » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:04 pm

ironraven wrote:*sighs* I could really use about five grand of disposable income right now. An AR, an AK, a tricked out shotgun, a couple pistols, and few thousand rounds.
I sold my motorcycle and am in the process of selling my old cherokee for some of that disposable income you mention. Yesterday I bought a GSG-5 with four 22 round mags, and a Glock 17 with four 17 round mags and four 33 round mags. I put money down on two AR-15s with several extra clips. After that I will feel comfortable enough to stop buying guns. All the money from then on would go into ammo.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:19 pm

The way I see it, a zombie apocalypse is slightly less likely than a gun ban in the US, but the general consensus seems to be that it's good to prepare (even for the unlikely event that the dead rise to feed on the living). So why not assume that a gun ban is a possibility, and plan accordingly :?:
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Lodewijk » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:19 pm

Rilo wrote:It'll only be 40 pages :wink: .
Hey, that's actually really smart. Why didn't I think of that?

EDIT: ugh why is my office printer so goddamn slow

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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by zephyrkyuubi » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:29 pm

A weapons ban could definitely happen if we grow lax in our behavior. Rights need to protected every now and then. Contact your representatives, get the community involved, start a group, peacefully protest, etc. These things aren't just for the "left", these are rights every american has at thier disposal. I think its mainly politicians who try and make this a partisan issue. I know many liberal democrats, like me, who are against an AWB.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by FlashDaddy » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:32 pm

Rilo wrote:
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: What is -- what is reasonable about a total ban on possession?
That's on page 18, line 17 of the oral arguments transcript from D.C. v. Heller.

The case really is worth reading, both the oral arguments and the decision. A lot of good points by the Justices and quite enlightening in terms of the historical context. Bottom line is that it has been held that the Second Amendment guarantees the individual right to bear arms ("in common use at the time" per US v. Miller, also noted as "in common use for lawful purposes"). That means that a total ban is not reasonable restriction.
+1 on the Heller decision.

Let's cut all the political name-calling, the whining, the panic and the-sky-is-falling crap and just talk about what could happen and what it would take to get there. Sure there could be another AWB. But serious doubts. It would fly in the face of the Supreme Court decision in Heller and would be struck down faster than you could get all the cosmoline out of an SKS. The only real route to an enforceable ban would be a constitutional amendment to strike the Second Amendment out of the Bill of Rights. And that ain't gonna happen.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by maine1 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:35 pm

The first AWB was just a trial, to see if Americans would accept it. To get us used to the idea. The next one will be permanent. I do not expect any really hard core gun control 'til his second term. The Democrats learned thier lesson on being too anti-gun, and a real assault on RTKBA will hurt his reelection.

Granted, i think that supporting gun control on any level makes one anti-gun.

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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by ProstheticWeasel » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:42 pm

zephyrkyuubi wrote:Contact your representatives, get the community involved, start a group, peacefully protest, etc.
Indeed send your reps a message asap and tell not to abuse their holding of the congress and the legislative branch to push through an unpopular bill like they did in 94. Point out all the things you support them on as well. They always hear people complaining about what a crap job they do. They probably love to hear some words of encouragement. I know I wouldn't want their job.

Doubly important if your reps are democrats.

And get a concealed carry if your state offers it. The more there are the better.

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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by zephyrkyuubi » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:54 pm

ProstheticWeasel wrote: Indeed send your reps a message asap and tell not to abuse their holding of the congress and the legislative branch to push through an unpopular bill like they did in 94. Point out all the things you support them on as well. They always hear people complaining about what a crap job they do. They probably love to hear some words of encouragement. I know I wouldn't want their job.
Yes! Also encourage your friends and family to do this as well. Its even better if you are in a local political group.
ProstheticWeasel wrote: Doubly important if your reps are democrats.
+1,000,000,000
ProstheticWeasel wrote: And get a concealed carry if your state offers it. The more there are the better.
I first have to learn how to shoot a gun, buy a gun, and then I will get my CCW. :D
Last edited by zephyrkyuubi on Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Rilo » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:00 pm

maine1 wrote:The first AWB was just a trial, to see if Americans would accept it. To get us used to the idea. The next one will be permanent. I do not expect any really hard core gun control 'til his second term. The Democrats learned thier lesson on being too anti-gun, and a real assault on RTKBA will hurt his reelection.
The AWB is still a possibility because its constitutionality hinges on the definition of certain weapons as "uncommon". We'd have to demonstrate why "assault weapons" as classified under the law, are in fact commonly used for lawful purposes. The trap that we have to avoid is the use of hunting as a litmus test for common use. Rather, self defense, recreational competition, etc. could be argued to be common lawful uses outside of hunting. I call dibs on using 3 gun comps as an example of lawful use for high cap pistols, assault rifles and shotguns.
Granted, i think that supporting gun control on any level makes one anti-gun.
I disagree. There are some reasonable laws on the books that limit who can lawfully purchase a firearm. I don't think many people would seriously contend that all people should be able to buy any type of weapon. Those convicted of violent crimes, those found to be mentally unstable, minors, illegal immigrants, etc. are all parties who I believe should not be allowed to purchase certain firearms. Any measure of restriction on those parties would be "gun control" but I don't believe people supporting those restrictions would be "anti-gun".

FWIW, I believe regulation of class 3 weapons is probably a necessary evil, though it is rather unreasonable in its current state (I find the forfeiture of Fourth Amendment rights to be preposterous). I believe that nearly all regulation should be handled at the State level but I feel that way about nearly all government functions.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Chef » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:27 pm

It would fly in the face of the Supreme Court decision in Heller and would be struck down faster than you could get all the cosmoline out of an SKS.
Maybe not that fast-- first someone would have to be in trouble for violating this hypothetical future ban, and then that person would have to fight said trouble through a protracted appeals process all the way up to the Supreme Court.

In addition, Heller merely affirmed an individual right to own "arms." The door remains open to to regulatory proscription of certain types and even whole classes of arms.
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Re: New PERMANENT gun ban

Post by Impus » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:40 pm

Seeing that this thread has (admirably, for the most part) avoided lockage, I'll add my .02:

I'm telling my anti-gun friends that if we get any significant gun control legislation in the next four years, I'm mobilizing for 2012 and running for President.
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