A good starting AR-15.

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ArmyOfDarkness
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A good starting AR-15.

Post by ArmyOfDarkness » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:44 pm

All this talk of SBRs is making me think of what kind of of upper I should get. This is my first AR-15 rifle and first build, I just finished my lower receiver and am wondering if a SBR would be good for a starter. If the S were to ever HTF I would most likely bug in and I wouldn't have to make any long range shot so right now I figure a SBR is the way to got. I could get an Upper receiver for dealers price from brownells for 430, and a 10.5 upper from impactguns.com would be about 700 including the 200 dollar tax. Heres the link http://www.impactguns.com/store/RRA-AR0362B.html



So what do you think?
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by elricfate » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:47 pm

I can't see Impact from work, but if that's a Rock River upper, I'd say go for it.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Dave_M » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:50 pm

Put your paperwork in right now.

Do NOT order your upper until you get your stamp.

Whichever shorty you get, I have to recommend a pig-tail gas tube. The main problem you get with shorties is the gas system being too short. A pig-tail gas tube wraps around the barrel and simulates a longer gas system and improves reliability.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by ArmyOfDarkness » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:54 pm

What I planned on doing is sending the lower in first then once its approved buy the upper. Are you allowed to shoot SBRs in 3 gun comps. Also since I'm not 21 yet my mom would fill out the form 1, but would I be allowed to shoot it?
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Dave_M » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:58 pm

ArmyOfDarkness wrote:What I planned on doing is sending the lower in first then once its approved buy the upper. Are you allowed to shoot SBRs in 3 gun comps. Also since I'm not 21 yet my mom would fill out the form 1, but would I be allowed to shoot it?

from here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthr ... p=10067716" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
NFA and age requirements
What about an age requirement for buying or making NFA weapons? For many years, it was incorrectly assumed that you had to be 21 in order to possess an NFA weapons. While you are required to be 21 in order to purchase an NFA weapon from a licensed dealer, you don’t have to be 21 to make or own one.
and
One important thing to note about BATFE Forms and those less than 21-years of age: the forms contain a question which asks if the transferee (the buyer) is 21 years old, or older. You must answer the question truthfully. However, that answer is not going to deny you your weapon, as long as you are not buying from an FFL / SOT.
Since you're making one, you only have to be 18.

And no, you couldn't just take the weapon to the range without your mom if she's the one on the form 1. Whoever is on the form has to be present while the NFA weapon is shot.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by ArmyOfDarkness » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:06 pm

Ok thank you, I guess I'll just go with the 16 inch. :)
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Dave_M » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:13 pm

ArmyOfDarkness wrote:Ok thank you, I guess I'll just go with the 16 inch. :)
No real reason to wait, well, except for the extra $200 you have to spend.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Big A » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:03 pm

Since you asked, I will say "Why not get a standard-length upper?"

There is an AWFUL lot of talk on every firearms Forum I frequent
about 'close quarters combat.' Why disadvantage yourself, rifle-wise,
for a situation that, as a civilian, will in all likelihood be a non-event?

I think people are on that bandwagon because everyone else is, too.

Ask yourself this: "Just how many freaking doors am I going to be
kicking in?"

A standard-length AR is not a long weapon. The advantages one gets
from that 4 or 6 extra inches of barrel in terms of velocity and reduced
fouling more than makes up for any "handiness" an "M-4orgery" will give
you.

Sure, the M-4orgery's look cool. But, "coolness" should not be the
deciding factor in buying an AR. It shouldn't be, but it usually is. :?

Be different: buy a standard-length AR upper.

My 2 cents, for what they're worth.

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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by praharin » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:36 pm

FWIW, im getting rid of my 16" and have plans on building a 20" and a 10.5". wont necessarily ever get it done but thats the plan. i would most likely go with the 10.5" first. compact has its benefits in a lot of cases, especially if you are planning on bugging in, as you said you were
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Dave_M » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:39 pm

praharin wrote:FWIW, im getting rid of my 16" and have plans on building a 20" and a 10.5". wont necessarily ever get it done but thats the plan. i would most likely go with the 10.5" first. compact has its benefits in a lot of cases, especially if you are planning on bugging in, as you said you were

There's not very much a 20" barrel will do that a 16" HBAR won't.

If we're talking 14.5" and 20", well, different story. I don't see a single reason to buy a 20" over a 16" at all.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Dave_M » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:40 pm

Big A wrote:A standard-length AR is not a long weapon. The advantages one gets
from that 4 or 6 extra inches of barrel in terms of velocity and reduced
fouling more than makes up for any "handiness" an "M-4orgery" will give
you.
Like I said, between a 14.5" and 20" you're correct. Not between a 16" and a 20" though. If you want one for nostalgia then by all means go for it.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by mk_ultra » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:50 pm

If this is in fact your first AR , a starter AR as the title of this thread suggests. Then in my opinion forget all the cool points and chicks dig it aspects of a SBR for now and just get yourself a good 14.5 or 16 in carbine.

Learn how to use the thing.

Spend the $200 for the SBR stamp on ammo and mags.

Buy SBR down the road.

:D
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by ArmyOfDarkness » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:53 pm

Now I have another question. A2 upper or a flat top? They reason I have the A2 as an option is it seems like a good point to start at since I'm new to rifle shooting. (well kind of, I have a 10/22 that I've had for about 2 years now. But the AR is center-fire.) Its seems like a good place to start just to learn the basic. Or should I get a flat-top, but I can't see the BUIS being that reliable, I'm new to the AR-15 so thats my thinking. :P
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Dave_M » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:02 pm

ArmyOfDarkness wrote:Now I have another question. A2 upper or a flat top? They reason I have the A2 as an option is it seems like a good point to start at since I'm new to rifle shooting. (well kind of, I have a 10/22 that I've had for about 2 years now. But the AR is center-fire.) Its seems like a good place to start just to learn the basic. Or should I get a flat-top, but I can't see the BUIS being that reliable, I'm new to the AR-15 so thats my thinking. :P

There is no possible reason to buy a carry-handle upper anymore (well, unless you're making a period specific gun).

Buy a flattop, buy a fullsize carry handle for it if you want as opposed to the BUIS.

The USMC still shoots man sized targets at 500m with a carry handle mounted on a flattop every day.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by ArmyOfDarkness » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:05 pm

OK thanks.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by boondoggie » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:19 pm

Well, FWIW, here’s my take on the whole SBR –

Advantages:

1. As a skive, I won’t be using a rifle as an offensive, but a defensive weapon. – even if the SHTF, and weather I bug in or out, its primary use would be to keep the family and I safe. I won’t be planning any offensive move where I may or may not need to engage targets at 200 – 300 yards or beyond (not that a SBR isn’t capable). As a defensive weapon, I am going to guess that 100 yards to “eye ball” will be the requirements (hence CQB).
2. If I need to bug out, it will be in a vehicle of some description, too much stuff to haul around for a family of four. – a 10.5” or even an 11.5” would allow for that flexibility in the confined space of a vehicle.
3. You loose a few oz in weight to make for easier traspotation, which to me anyways, equals more ammo.
4. You always have the option to add a suppressor and typically stay under 16” to maintain maneuverability.
5. There has never been a better time to apply for one, just incase they close the books and or a change in our political climate takes place.

Disadvantages:

1. There is the small matter of the additional $200 for the Tax stamp and a 4 – 6 week wait.
2. You need to either create a living trust or get your local Sheriff chief to sign off on it, plus the finger prints, picture etc…
3. You need to have the manufacture engraved on the receiver.
4. Most SBR are loud as hell.
5. Adding a Suppressor requires not only another $200 tax stamp, but also adds weight to the setup.

To summarize:

1. The advantages out weight the disadvantages, for me personally.
2. The disadvantages aren’t really that much of a PITA.

My form 1 is currently pending and I can’t wait…

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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Tactical Raccoon » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:52 pm

DavePAL84 wrote:Put your paperwork in right now.

Do NOT order your upper until you get your stamp.

Whichever shorty you get, I have to recommend a pig-tail gas tube. The main problem you get with shorties is the gas system being too short. A pig-tail gas tube wraps around the barrel and simulates a longer gas system and improves reliability.
You can actually buy a <16" upper without a tax stamp BUT DO NOT attach it to a lower WITHOUT the stamp or you will be in BIG TROUBLE!

Did this about 4 years ago when I was in college and didnt have the extra $200.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Dave_M » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:00 pm

Tactical Raccoon wrote:You can actually buy a <16" upper without a tax stamp BUT DO NOT attach it to a lower
ONLY if:

a) You have a registered pistol lower

or

b) You do not have any AR rifle lowers or complete AR rifles.


Owning an SBR upper without a pistol lower and also having a regular AR slaps you with "intent to manufacture"--also not good.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by armored_pig » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:06 pm

Other options not mentioned:
14.5" with fixed flash hider

16" middy

or 14.5" fixed flash middie!** <---the nicest looking (but I like having a 16")

AP

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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Tactical Raccoon » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:28 pm

armored_pig wrote:Other options not mentioned:
14.5" with fixed flash hider

16" middy

or 14.5" fixed flash middie!** <---the nicest looking (but I like having a 16")

AP
I like the second option best. I have an SBR and it isn't as accurate as my 16" AR
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by armored_pig » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:30 am

I agree. Heres my 16" Middy HBAR to help you decide :D

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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by colinz » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:07 am

One of the advantages of having a 16" barrel over a 20" is that you can add a suppressor to the 16" without exceeding the overall length of the 20". :)

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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by Civilian Scout » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:44 am

If I were forced to own only one AR, it would have a 16" barrel. I own one 20" upper, a vintage M16A1 upper, and while it's fun to shoot it's purely a nostalgia piece for me. I just think that 16" is the best do-it-all size, not too short and not too long.

I also own a 10.5" SBR, and while it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot, I don't think an SBR would be the best thing as a starter AR. Why not? Well, because the farther you get away from the original design (20" barrel with 12" gas system) the more issues you run into getting it to run reliably. Yes, SBRs can be very reliable (mine has been) but I will say that if you do go short, don't go cheap. I wouldn't get that RRA 10.5" upper because I think that gas blocks with set screws are an accident waiting to happen, especially in something as finnicky as an SBR. Get either a standard FSB or a pinned low-pro gas block if you want, but screws are generally a bad idea in my opinion.

I think that as 16" middys (mid-length gas systems) become more prevalent and thus more affordable, they will quickly catch on as the best all-around AR configuration.
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Re: A good starting AR-15.

Post by ArmyOfDarkness » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:28 am

I also have another question about the front sight the one upper I'm thinking about getting is a flat top, nut still have the front sight post. Is there a way I can change that so its a small picitany rail and I can add a flip up front sight. I think its something like a new gas block or something.
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