The .50 caliber rifle

[Andy@SHTF.info]

.50 Cal has 2 advantages over the traidional hunting calibers (.30-06, 8mm Mauser, .308, 7x62x54R, etc.)

1. Range - the traditional hunting calibers are limited to 500 yards. Not so for the .50 cal, it can reach out to 1000 yards.

Note: If I see a zombie at 700 yard, I'm not wasting a round on it.

2. Stopping power. A tradiitonal hunting caliber with a military surplus AP (armor piercing) round (legal here in Texas) will only stop things as large as 2-ton trucks with a single well placed shot. 18-wheelers take several well-placed shots. A .50 cal will stop an 18-wheeler with one shot, and can easily disable an APC (armored personnel carriers.)

Note: Unless I WAY off on my assessment of the tactic al capabilites of the armeis of the undead, they don't use 18-wheelers and APCs.

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The upper limit of the range of different calibers in different weapons is roughly as follows: I mean that at these ranges, a typical, military-trained shooter san stop a human at that range. If you want to stop a zombie with a head shot, cut these ranges in half.

1. Anything fired from a handgun is limited to 25 yards due to accuracy of the sights on the pistol. Example: Beretta 92 in 9mm.

2. Pistol caliber rounds fired from a carbine will reach to a maximum of 100-200 yards (depending on the weapon.) Example: Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in .40 S&W.

3. Any intermediate caliber ("assault rifle") will be limited to 300 yards befor the bullet looses so much energy that it's not lethal, or it is blown off course by the wind. Example: M16 in .223 NATO.

4. Any traditional hunitng round (sometimes called full power rifle rounds) will be limited to 500 yards - about 1/4 mile.

5. A .50 cal is letha to 1000 yards.

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The .50 cal rifle usually weight 40 pounds. An 8mm Mauser will weigh about 8 lbs. That's a 5x heavier rifle. The ammo is not $0.4 per round (as in Turkish 8mm ammo) but will cost atleast $0.75 per round. That's 19x more expensive per round. The recoil generated by the rounds from the .50 will be incredible. They are not 1/3 oz moving at 3000fps (as in the 8mm) but instead they are 1-3/4 oz moving at 3000 fps. That's a 7x bigger bullet. The rounds also weigh 7x more. The noise from firing a .50 cal ONCE will leave you DEAF if you don't use hearing protectors. The 8mm Mauser cost me $50, but the .50 cal starts at $1300.

Obviously, the .50 cal is not an easy to use weapon. We're talking $1300 for a cheap rifle, and $0.75 per round if you're really gettting a good deal on ammo. Then you're trying to move a 40 pound rifle and ammo that weighs 1/6 lb per round. Ohh yes, the gun is about as tall as you are - 5 to 6 feet. This is no 22" barreled rifle or 16" barreled carbine.

Think of a .50 cal as a cannon that happens to shoot cenerfire cartridges. It takes several people to move it and set it up.

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So you see, the .50 cal is a heck of a weapon for it's purpose, but it's not the weapon to grab when something's coming in your window.

For some reason, congress is trying to ban .50 cals. This is odd since I've never heard of a gang banger robbing a 7-11 with a 40 lb cannon. There's only been one person in the history of the USA who was ever killed by a murder armed with a .50 cal. That was when a police sniper was fired, when nuts, and carried the .50 up to the roof of the police station, and killed the chief of police from a 1/2 mile away as he was leaving church. The sniper missed the heads of Human Resources (HR) and Internal Afffairs (IA). Of course, the gun ban would leave these guns in the hands of the police. (Call your Congress Critter and b!tch about this ban!)

Andy Out!

[jor-el]

I should check, but .50 lethality with aimed shots is a lot further than 1000 yards. Canadian snipers with McBros rigs scored kills at a measured 2400+ meters during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.

Now, I don't own one yet, nor are my skills that good, but that capability should not be discounted. Zombie infantry may not be the only threat in the PAW.

[Mugwug]

The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley, beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/713521/posts

Those good ol cannucks.... mind you if I remember correctly Hathcock was shooting .308.

[Andy@SHTF.info]

I should check, but .50 lethality with aimed shots is a lot further than 1000 yards. Canadian snipers with McBros rigs scored kills at a measured 2400+ meters during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.

Now, I don't own one yet, nor are my skills that good, but that capability should not be discounted. Zombie infantry may not be the only threat in the PAW.

We disagree on the criteria. You refer to the longest kill ever recorded. I meant to refer to the limit of a typical military-trained shooter. Any marine who passed basic training can hit at the ranges I cited. The round is lethal father out, but you'll go through many shots to get one hit.

Put another way, I might get a lucky shot with a handgun at 200 yards, but I'm not reccomending that you bet your life on it.

Also, I'm talking off-the-shelf equipment. I know there are also some special handguns out there that can take game at 150 yards, but those are not issued sidearms. There are specialty versions of hunting rifles that can hit at 1000+yards, but they are definately not rack-grade equipment that any grunt would grab out of the national guard armory.

You can also increase the accuracy by handloading to your weapon. That's beyond the scope of rack-grade equipment.

My reasoning in refering to rack grade equipment in the hands of someone who has come through basic training is simple: I can spend a week teaching a person how to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards with a $30 Nosin Nagant rifle (rifleman level accuracy.) Or I can spend 2 years teaching him how to hit the same target wth a $3500 rifle at 1000 yards (sniper level accuracy.) I'd much rather train and equip 100 rifleman than one sniper. 100 riflemen are collectively much more effective than one sniper.

Andy Out!

[Mr_Fubar]

The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley, beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/713521/posts

Those good ol cannucks.... mind you if I remember correctly Hathcock was shooting .308.

That Shot Was From Ma' Deuce...

[Mugwug]

That Shot Was From Ma' Deuce...

http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/002112.html

My bad.... it did sound like an awfully long shot for .308

[-Jason-]

I believe the .30-06 has a range much better then 500 yards. THe round is large and after WWII smaller calibers were developed becuase the current ones gave a lot of range that was never needed for infantry style combat.

[PoorImpulseControl]

Oh snap, the n00b is weighing in:

People ask me all the time: "Geesh Jay, why do you want a rifle that can kill TRAINS."

Well, the answer is simple: "In case I ever have to kill a train."

On a slightly more serious note: the .50bmg sniper rigs were designed as anti-material rifles. Sniping off launch boxes, the occasional engine block, and whatever else you can think of that you dont want to operate. Mkay, fine.

.50bmg sniping against people? That's kindof silly. AFAIK, no one makes hollowpoints for .50bmg [jesus, a 600 grain hollowpoint? *shudder*] so that leaves you with ball, AP, API, and APIT. None of which are going to cause a lot of tissue damage. It's just going to make a nice 1/2" hole through you, and exit your body.

Now, you can have some fun with the .50bmg cartridge! Like, oh...you know...Sabot it down to .308?

Another thing to consider is this:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/raufoss/

[Mugwug]

It's important to make a distinction between "lethal range" and "effective range" when dealing with types of ammunition. .30-06 (or .303 british, .308 WIN and so forth) are lethal out to a few thousand yards if I remember correctly, but accurate shooting with a standard rifle is iffy beyond a few hundred yards for an average marksman with iron sights.

(Interesting article about comparing .30-06 to .308 here)

The history of rifle cartridges is interesting, and we've seen a gradual reduction of the size of the bullet used by the military since the introduction of the firearm (a quick sampling below).

Snider-Enfield - .577 cal (1870's)
Martini-Henry - .45 cal (1880s)
Lee-Metford - .303 (1890s)
Lee-Enfield - .303 (1900-1960)

Draw your own conclussions....

[minengr]

I believe the official range of the .308 (according to the Army) is 800 yards. However, it's a touch further, in the hands of a skilled marksman. http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn20 ... endocument

I think effective range has more to do with the skill of the shooter than the size of the bullet.

[isotek]

i think most of this has allready been touched on in a different thread.
http://zombiesquad.theedge.net//phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1927

oh and the cetme is a h&k g3 contract rifle its made to the same specs as the g3 at less than half the cost due to the fact that its manufactured in spain.

[Drew]

I'd hate to keep this pissing match going between you guys about why you'd need a .50 or want one but...

'El Jeffe' and I had this conversation a week back; there was a Van Damme movie some time ago, Hard Target I think, with the android from Aliens, Erik Something-or-Another. In this movie, he carried a Thompson Contender with the barrel I swear was a .50 attatchement. Can't prove it, tried as I did.

We did find a S&W revolver in a .50, but I really wanted to find the TC. No joy on that hunt.

Can you imagine fireing on of those from the hip? Shit! That's gotta be a blast!

[minengr]

Actually the Cetme came first and was designed by a former Mauser employee. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as60-e.htm

True Cetme’s are not cheap and haven’t been imported for sometime. There is a MARS imported Cetme on gunbroker now for $4000. The majority of Cetme’s found in the US are imported parts kits that have been assembled on an American made receivers. The majority of those recievers were made at Century Arms.

If you’d like to learn more about the Cetme check this place out http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=47 There are many Cetme owners there, and tons of information.

[PoorImpulseControl]

That revolver is a huge piece of shit. Seriously. The only novelty it has, is the fact that it fires .500 Woo.

There's a few people saying that it has a serious design flaw. The geometry of the grip, and the nature of the kick makes it quite easy for accidental double-taps to be let off. Certainly not a good thing when dealing with big lead.

We did find a S&W revolver in a .50, but I really wanted to find the TC. No joy on that hunt.

Can you imagine fireing on of those from the hip? Shit! That's gotta be a blast!

[isotek]

minengr i salute you

*salutes*