Gunpowder Production.

[Cricket]

I wasn't sure if I should post this in Self-Sufficent living or Firearms, so I went with this since it seemed like more people in Firearms would be interested in this.

What happens if we face a COMPLETE collapse of civilization and we need to refurbish our ammunition supplies after years of fighting?

Our only choice is to make out OWN ammunition, and this is how you should do it.

First, I would make it a priority to start making clay casts of ALL my ammunition types, this is important, you are going to need them in the future.

To do this, remove the actual projectile from the casing of the bullet, I wouldn't suggest trying to put this bullet back together and fire it without proper experiance and tools, so wait until you really need to.

Dump all of the powder out of your casing and measure the EXACT amount.

This is all you'll really need to know about your bullet.

The size and shape of the projection, and the amount of grain behind each one.

I would also invest in an ammo catcher to attack to your gun, since you don't want to be scurrying about on your hands and knees grabbing for ammo in the middle of hostile territory.

I would stockpile gunpowder now, along with primers, and empty casings.

Primers seem to be harder to fabricate than gunpowder, so I would most definatly stock pile them in ridiculous amounts.

Gun powder isn't really hard to fabricate, and the chemicals in it are actually quite simple, it is also rather cheap, and can be bought in bulk.

And empty casings are REALLY easy to come by, just poke around a shooting range, dig into your own stock of spent shells, or buy them too from bulk.

I would also stock pile rather large chunks of lead to be melted down into bullets (easy to melt down, good for messing up skulls.) and just pour the molten lead into the clay casings you made (you can also buy professional casings of you don't want to make them yourself, but whats the fun in that?)

But I would get a large cast steel pot that you will never use for cooking and make a huge fire in it, toss some chunks of lead in it, and let it get molten, then just pour in your molds.

That is the simplistic way of making the bullets.

I would suggest either stockpiling blackpowder, the components of making it, or be in an area rich with natural resources where you can extract all of them naturally (I would suggest being close to a mining area with coal and/or sulphur mines) and near saltpeter caves.

Being in an area with all of these things within riding/hiking distance would be ideal.

Primer compound in a lot harder to make being made of Lead Azide or Potassium perchlorate, so you need actual chemistry knowledge to synthisize these.

Overall, it would be ideal to have a workshop composed of, metal milling/working tools, (including scrap steel, aluminum, lead, and brass), facilities to melt down large amounts of lead (big heavy steel pot, lots of wood) a fully stocked chemical lab focusing primarily on the production of gunpowder, lead azide and potassium percholorate.

It would also be a good idea to have these broken off into teams, just have someone making bullets all day long basically, so the people defending the area or the base are free to fight.

But it would be ideal to have at least elementary knowledge of metal working, chemistry, and tools before any major breakdown of civilization.

Here are some good links focusing on reloading spent casings in some way:
http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/foxfire5.html
http://cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/gunpowder/
http://www.textfiles.com/anarchy/gunpowder
http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly ... afetya.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_85472051
http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... amines.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_azide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_perchlorate

[Raccoon City Survivor]

This may not exactly be something to discuss, but I'm sure the admins will say something.

[kyle]

This may not exactly be something to discuss, but I'm sure the admins will say something.

Home reloading isn't illegal. I used to reload my own rifle ammo.

There may be some states out there with crazy regulations against reloading so be sure to check your local laws before hand.

Thanks for sharing the info Cricket.

[Oracle]

Why make clay casts? Go to www.leeprecision.com and get ready-made casts for the caliber of bullets your firearm uses. Damn, this does not have to be harder than it otherwise would be .

The problem with "dumping out the powder in your cartridge and measuring exactly how much is in there" is that you don't know what kind of powder that is. There are a bunch of different kinds of smokeless gunpowders, with different burn rates. Put the exact same amount of two different smokeless gunpowders in two different cartridges, one may work fine, one may blow up, destroy your firearm, and harm you. It's best to get a decent reloading manual (Lee, Speer, and Hornady make good ones), and use the amounts and types of powders listed in the book.

There is also a big difference between smokeless gunpowder (made of nitrocellulose, and other nitric compounds) and black powder gunpowder (made of nitrite, charcoal, and sulphur). Some cartridges work well with one, and don't work well at all with the other. Plus, when you are loading a black powder round, no air space can be left in the cartridge, or the round will blow up.

Learn how to reload the rounds you use, get a basic reloading kit, and a good instruction manual, and go from there.

[minengr]

If you want to make your own powder and primers go ahead, but I personally think it’s a very bad idea. I’ve done some reloading, mostly shotgun and a little rifle, and it’s a little more involved than many think. Minor mistakes reloading can have major consequences when shooting. Most reloading powders are made by companies that have been in the business for years and they are made with a consistency that I doubt could be reproduced at home.

One might be able to reproduce black powder to shoot in a muzzle loader, but I doubt you’d be able to produce the smokeless powder that’s used today. That is unless the ZS crosses the river and takes control of the Olin plant in Alton. I hear rumors they load a few shells there, but I have no clue where it’s at.

Lead bullets have been made at home for years, and can be done fairly easily if need be. Moulds are available from a variety of people. Check out www.midwayusa.com they have a ton or reloading equipment. Used wheel weights are probably the most popular material for making bullets. I think they will be easily obtainable in a PAW.

If you are concerned about supplies lasting, most everything can be bought in bulk now. Bulk surplus powder, brass, and bullets are available from several places online. If any of the ZS in St. Louis starts reloading, you should check this place out http://www.hi-techammo.com/ you could just pick it up and not get jacked for the $20 Haz-mat shipping fee.

[Cricket]

First, reloading isn't illegal, neither is making your own blackpowder, or synthisizing primers. (At least in most places, it isn't at all here in Mississippi, because its Mississippi.)

Second, I am offering advice on how to make them on either a shoestring budget, or in a senario where it would be rather difficult to get ahold of dies (i.e. the apocolypse.) of course it is preferable to get the dyes BEFORE the Zombie apocolypse happens, but you have to think of not being totally prepared.

Third, thank you for pointing out that there is a difference between black powder, and the powder used in guns, learn how to make it all.

Also, when you measure the amount of powder behind your charge, don't mess it up and accidently mix other powders up with it.

But I think it is important that all of us be verse in fabricating some kind of usable weapons if ammo stores ever do run out, we need to be prepared for the inevitable end of our finite stores of ammo.

There are of course millions of rounds, but I would imagine that in a truely apocolyptic senario you are going to be expelling perhaps hundreds of rounds a day, with millions of people doing that, and with munitions facilities shut down, we are going to need to know how to do this ourselves.

Also having a knowledge of explosives such as this can benefit you if you are going to try to attempt any other improvised chemical explosives to try to combat that zombie menace.

[Cricket]

This helps:

Most SPs are made of Nitrocellulose with a binder of rosin and polyester. Some also have some Nitroglycerin in them. These are often called double base powders and have some of the highest burn rates. A huge factor in the burn rate of an SP is the shape and size of the powder grains. Generally, the smaller the grain size the faster the powder burns. Most pistol powders are smaller grains, while the large bore rifle powders tend to be larger grains. In a rocket, we will be propelling a rather light mass and we want it to happen as quickly as possible. We also have a lot of compartment volume to pressurize. For this reason, I focused my efforts on the fastest powders listed. There are a lot of different SPs out there from many manufacturers. To choose which ones to use, I wandered through my reloading manual and noted which powders where used most often in the small pistol calibers. The winners were Bullseye, AA #2, Win 231, Red Dot, 700X, Win WST, Green Dot, AA #5, and Unique; listed in order of burn rate from fastest to slowest. There are a number of other powders with similar burn rates, but since they are seldom used in reloading, I did not consider them. I figure if you're going to pick a powder, pick one that has the greatest chance of being used in both rocketry and reloading. This will insure that it is available to all and you'll be able to pick it up at the local gun shop or Wal-Mart store. An $18 can of powder would last you years if you only used it for rocketry, so you might as well be able to load up some .357's between flying days, right?

Nitrocellulose Synthesis:
http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/nitrocellulose.htm

Gotta love Power Labs!

[kyle]

Also having a knowledge of explosives such as this can benefit you if you are going to try to attempt any other improvised chemical explosives to try to combat that zombie menace.

Just a warning, before you take this too far, homemade explosives and other illegal activities are frowned on in this forum. We want to avoid taking this forum in that direction.

[Oracle]

Trying to manufacture smokeless gunpowder is probably a poor idea. Even making "gun cotton" or a basic forum of nitrocellulose involves soaking cotton in nitric acid, which can cause extremely serious chemical burns if not handled properly. But, even if you can make gun cotton, it's a far cry from smokeless gunpowder. Smokeless gunpowder is probably just one of the things you want to stock up on in lieu of trying to make yourself.

Black powder can be made yourself, there are plenty of places on the internet to learn about doing so.

[Cricket]

Also having a knowledge of explosives such as this can benefit you if you are going to try to attempt any other improvised chemical explosives to try to combat that zombie menace.

Just a warning, before you take this too far, homemade explosives and other illegal activities are frowned on in this forum. We want to avoid taking this forum in that direction.

Yea, I got a warning for another one of my threads that is currently gone, i'll take greater care to refrain from going too deeply in it.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I don't want to encourage ANYONE to break the law in any way, I just want people to be knowledgeable of these things because they will be useful in the future.

Honestly, do you want to possibly live through a long term zombie apocolypse and NOT know how to manufacture new gunpowder for you bullets or how to potentially make explosives to ward off the dead?

[Cricket]

Trying to manufacture smokeless gunpowder is probably a poor idea. Even making "gun cotton" or a basic forum of nitrocellulose involves soaking cotton in nitric acid, which can cause extremely serious chemical burns if not handled properly. But, even if you can make gun cotton, it's a far cry from smokeless gunpowder. Smokeless gunpowder is probably just one of the things you want to stock up on in lieu of trying to make yourself.

Black powder can be made yourself, there are plenty of places on the internet to learn about doing so.

Right, he also has instructions on Powerlabs on how to make gun quality C6H7N3O11.

And the inherant dangers of ANY chemical synthesis involving any kind of exo or endo-thermic reactions are something that chemists are willing to take.

Remember I am not encouraging ANYONE to go out and TRY THIS, I want them to read this information and LEARN about it.

Trying this now without the proper permits and licenses is VERY ILLEGAL, and I don't want anyone to try it.

But I DO want them to learn about it, I see that as VERY important.

Having a working knowledge of the synthesis of these very simple explosives and their uses are the first step towards making yourself munitions-self-reliant in the event of a large scale societal breakdown. (At which point doing any of these things would NO LONGER BE ILLEGAL.)

[Martyr_Machine]

Gunpowder production is entirely feasible in a holocaust situation. I wont get into the specifics here, as it is most likely illegal. Though I would be more than happy to provide a recipe (for any explosives) for anyone who is interested in learning how.

[Necro99]

I was thinking, how would a musket be usefull in a late PAW? After much of the fight done and the ammo expended, it would be good to use a black powder rifle to kill the occasional zombie with cheap ammo.

[Martyr_Machine]

I was thinking, how would a musket be usefull in a late PAW? After much of the fight done and the ammo expended, it would be good to use a black powder rifle to kill the occasional zombie with cheap ammo.

Dont those things take forever to reload?

[Oracle]

A person skilled in the use of a musket can reload 3 times in one minute. Slow by modern standards, but it's relatively easy to make the ammunition and propellant from scratch.

[Martyr_Machine]

A person skilled in the use of a musket can reload 3 times in one minute. Slow by modern standards, but it's relatively easy to make the ammunition and propellant from scratch.

I guess it could be effective assuming one was protected from the zombies. If you were outside however, I would recommend a rifle/shotgun.

[Oracle]

Yes, we would all recommend a rifle or shotgun over a muzzleloader. What do you do with your rifle or shotgun once you are out of ammunition and can't get any more, though? That's the point.

[Cricket]

I think that if you were in a secure compound of some sort that it would be a good idea to use muzzle loaders for perimeter defenses.

I mean if you were shooting at them from some sort of walkway or rampart above them, or behind some kind of heavy fence, reloading times would not particularly matter, only accuracy and paintence.

I could also imagine some rather destructive shotgun applications for larger muzzle loaders.

I could imagine having small cannons set up on tripods around the base, and you could use anything from rocks, to sea shell and smashed up bone, and rusted metal, as the shot, and just take down large portions at once. Like big punt guns, only instead of geese your mowing down rows of reanimates.

And have a cache of semi-automatic rifles in the INNER compound to fall back on if the perimeter is broken. (I'd be a neat idea to have a subterranen tunnel to escape into and into ANOTHER compound.)

So I would keep in reserve AT LEAST 100 professionally manufactured rounds for each one of your firearms, and use your refillable ammo stores for clearing up the perimeter and for "guarded" defenses.

[Nightside_Eclipse]

A person skilled in the use of a musket can reload 3 times in one minute. Slow by modern standards, but it's relatively easy to make the ammunition and propellant from scratch.

In a fortified area muzzleloaders would be great. I never even thought of that.

Especially if you had a few of them and had another person or two to reload while everyone else fired.

[Andy@SHTF.info]

Cricket, I know that some have replied to your message, but I'm going to go through it almost point-by-point to explain how you make your own ammo.

The assembly step is called "Reloading" or "Handloading." I promise not to talk about anything I haven’t done. I handload more than 50 calibers, some of which are obsolete , hard to get, or invented by me.

You can search for either topic at http://www.Amazon.com under books, or at http://www.Half.com and find tons of great books for beginners.

Before you do anything else, know what the terms are. Work through this reloading guide:
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=5 Go through everything on the white part of the screen, plus the stuff on the left hand side in the green. Spend a few hours.

If you want to get started really cheap, there's a thing called the "Lee Loader" that you can find used for $5. Basically, it allows you to reload one caliber (you must get the right one for the caliber you want.) You basically bang it with a rock, and it makes ammo.

There are better kits, such as the one I started with:
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/622290

You will also need a set of dies. I recommend a set of Lee Precision brand Carbide (that’s important) dies. For technical reasons, carbide dies are only available for pistol calibers, so start with a pistol caliber when you start handloading.

One quick safety warning: guns kill people. If you screw up handloading, then you can cause the gun to blow up instead of throwing a projectile down range. That can hurt you. You’re working with pounds of gunpowder and hundreds of primers. Read the safety section of a book on handloading and take it seriously.

First, I would make it a priority to start making clay casts of ALL my ammunition types, this is important, you are going to need them in the future.

Ummmm...no...The measurements are very precise, and a clay mould would be useless. You need a reloading manual with precise drawings of the cartridges. There are some drawings available on the web. A 5/100ths of an inch error would result in your cartridge case blowing into pieces. That would be bad. You probably do not want to make your own cartridge cases for many reasons. I’ll say more about that later.

Here are the drawings from Israeli Military Industries (IMI) for their .223 NATO ammo:
http://www.imisammo.co.il/10172b.htm

Learning to read a drawing is tough, but A LOT EASIER THAN WORKING FROM A CLAY CASTING.

You will need at least a set of calipers (a tool that measures lengths to 1/1000th of an inch) they are available at hardware stores and from http://www.HarborFreight.com Don't pay more than $20 for a pair. These are important for measuring things like the OAL (over all length) of a loaded round.

The first step in learning to make your own ammo is to take the cartridge case, (new) primer, (new) gunpowder, and (new) projectile…then put them together according to a recipe to make a new round. Learn this basic assembly before going any farther.

Dump all of the powder out of your casing and measure the EXACT amount.

NOT ALL POWDERS ARE THE SAME!!! The exact same amount of the wrong kind of powder will turn your gun into a bomb! You will need to know the kind of powder and the amount. The amount is measured in grains. There are 7000 grains to 1 pound. That’s 432.5 grains to the ounce.

Scales are used to weigh gunpowder. They can be the balance beam type, or they can be electronic.

A balance beam scale:
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/712103
An electronic scale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 29518&rd=1
That’s exactly the first two scales that I bought. The balance beam one is now never used, though it does not need (4) AAA batteries.

You’ll need to look up the kind of powder and how much to use in a table of “load data” in a “load manual”…like this: http://ww2.whidbey.net/deadeye/223Rifle.htm

This is all you'll really need to know about your bullet. The size and shape of the projection, and the amount of grain behind each one.

Bullets are measured in grains of weight. Don’t change the bullet weight without looking up a new set of load data in the book.

Also, make sure you have the right bullet diameter (in thousandths of an inch) that the load manual tells you to use.

Finally, some shapes don't work well in some guns. Revolvers can take any shape, while semi-autos want round nose bullets that are extremely hard.

I would also invest in an ammo catcher to attack to your gun, since you don't want to be scurrying about on your hands and knees grabbing for ammo in the middle of hostile territory.

It’s called a brass catcher. The spent rounds are brass…not ammo.

I would stockpile gunpowder now, along with primers, and empty casings.

Yep. Also, casting lead bullets gets real old and is a royal pain. It must be done outside. Buying FMJ (full metal jacket) bullets is the easiest way to start, and the $5 you spend on one bag of 100 will save you many hours of frustration if you are loading for a semi-auto the first time.

Primers seem to be harder to fabricate than gunpowder, so I would most definatly stock pile them in ridiculous amounts.

Yep. Also, there are attempts to ban the sale of primers to civilians in Britain and Canada right now. The US failed to pass such a law in 1994, but they could try again.

Gun powder isn't really hard to fabricate, and the chemicals in it are actually quite simple, it is also rather cheap, and can be bought in bulk.

B.S. Unless you are a chemist, don’t try it. Making any kind of explosives is WAY beyond me. If we get to the point I can not buy it, then I'll talk about it.

And empty casings are REALLY easy to come by, just poke around a shooting range, dig into your own stock of spent shells, or buy them too from bulk.

True for common calibers, but other calibers are a bit though to come by. (.303 Brit, for example) then I have to mail order the brass at absurd prices.

During WW2, US hunters could not get new cartrige cases. They actually cut their own from brass rods - but it took 3-4 hours per cartridge, and then they would last about 2 firings. The cartridge case is harder to make than the primer. Please save your own ones.

Now, you get to learn the difference in Boxer and Berdan primers:
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIF3.html

Boxer primers are reloadable, and Berdan primers are not reloadable. There are theoretical ways to reload Berdan primers, but it's not worth it in the USA right now.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/rcbsbe ... tions.html

I would also stock pile rather large chunks of lead to be melted down into bullets (easy to melt down, good for messing up skulls.) and just pour the molten lead into the clay casings you made (you can also buy professional casings of you don't want to make them yourself, but whats the fun in that?)

Wheel weights are a starting point if you don’t mind a lot of hot, sweaty work. They’re $0.25 per pound, so that 100 pounds would cost you $25. The problem is that you need to flux it constantly, get rid of huge amounts of dross, and add antimony and tin to alloy the metal to a useable condition. This is FAR more complicated that assembling rounds - so start with simple handloading using store-bought FMJ projectiles.

But I would get a large cast steel pot that you will never use for cooking and make a huge fire in it, toss some chunks of lead in it, and let it get molten, then just pour in your molds.

Get a good book for $10 from http://www.Half.com on bullet casting, maybe my favorite:
http://half.ebay.com/search/search.jsp? ... ok&x=0&y=0

I would suggest either stockpiling blackpowder, the components of making it, or be in an area rich with natural resources where you can extract all of them naturally (I would suggest being close to a mining area with coal and/or sulphur mines) and near saltpeter caves.

Black powder has very little in common with modern smokeless powder. No semi-auto can function with black powder. At best, you’d be stuck with a bolt gun. A better solution is military surplus pull-down powder for $5-$8 per pound. (that’s an advanced topic once you handload a dozen calibers)

Primer compound in a lot harder to make being made of Lead Azide or Potassium perchlorate, so you need actual chemistry knowledge to synthisize these.

Actually, modern primers use Lead Styphenate – either complex lead styphenate (in all brands except Federal) or simple lead styphenate (in Federal primers.) I’m not even going to talk about making my own primers when they are $12.50 per 1,000 in large quantity at the gun shows. Buy 25,000 and stick them in the drawer of a file cabinet.

There are many kinds of primers:
Small Pistol (.175" diameter)
Large Pistol (.210" diameter)
Small Rifle (.175" diameter)
Large Rifle (.210" diameter)
209 Shotgun (totally different, and larger; called battery-cup primers; also more expensive)
No, pistol and rifle primers are not interchangable except in emergencies.

Overall, it would be ideal to have a workshop composed of, metal milling/working tools, (including scrap steel, aluminum, lead, and brass), facilities to melt down large amounts of lead (big heavy steel pot, lots of wood) a fully stocked chemical lab focusing primarily on the production of gunpowder, lead azide and potassium percholorate.

Learn to handload first. Then, a book on going beyond handloading to truly making the components is:
http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?c ... &meta_id=1
or
http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?c ... &meta_id=1
Either book should be less than $20 shipped.

If you have any questions about that, eMail me at Andy@Shtf.Info

[Cricket]

I covered most of the stuff in the first post later in the thread.

I explained that you could PROBABLY use clay imprints of your bullets if you couldn't get access to dyes.

Remember we are talking about a PAW here, dyes won't be easy to find after the world ends.

I also addressed that Black powder and Nitrocellulose arn't the same thing, I admitted to that mistake later in the thread and addressed it.

I also know what a brass catcher is, the proper steps of reloading, and the materials you need if you want to do it PROPERLY, but I was trying to imagine ways that it could be done with the very BASIC of supplies with no electricity, that is why some of my methods are "primative" to say the very least.

I am aware of all the proper ways (especially now that I did the required reading of many of the websites I posted.)

I am just trying to figure out the most simple ways to do it without access to the proper material and ways.

[Andy@SHTF.info]

I've tried making my own bullet molds. I originally tried to get a ball-end end-mill (kinda like a drill bit with a hemisphere on the end, instead of a point for the uninitiated) that was .308" diameter. The closest I could come to .308" was 5/16" (.3125") so I ordered a 5/16" ball end endmill. I hoped to use the cast bullets in a .311" diameter bore, such as a 7.62x54R, or .303.

I got pretty close, but failed to realize that the bit wobbled, even in a milling machine, making the hole bigger than the bit.

Also, after I cut the hole, I learned that lead shrinks and expands as it's cast.

My 5/16" (.3125") mill hole cast 8mm bullets; perfect for a 8mm Mauser. I need to get a cheap Lee 8mm sizer...when I finish my Enfield project.

My suggestion is that post-apocolpyse, should you know nothing about reloading, find some decent reloading gear. I'm stocking up in advance.

Andy Out!

[Cricket]

Oh most definatly i'm stocking up in advance, I just think it'd be a good idea to try to imagine ways that could possibly work without the proper equipment.

[Hollow Point]

Instead of that, why not just buy Wolf and other bargin ammos like Winchester white box by the case and caching it for future use? Rotate your supply by shooting some for practice and ordering new to replace what you've got, that way you keep your ammo fresh (even though ammo doesn't really go 'bad" unless it's wet, corroded, etc. Simple precautions prevent that) and you stay in practice so it doesn't take you half a mag per zombie to brin them down.

Ammo production at the individual level like that is impractical at best, dangerous at worst. As others have said, you are working with precise tolerances, explosives, etc. Never mind it being the PAW-if your gun kabooms in your hand using jackleg reloads and you loose parts of your hands, eyesight, etc, that'll be worse than not having any ammo.

If you are going to reload, take the time and spend the $ to do it right. The tools, components, etc aren't much too ensure you've got quality, safe ammo to feed your guns, especially if you compare it to having a chunk of your hand blown off or loosing your eyesight. A Lee Loader is like $16 bucks new. It'll let you reload on caliber, slowly, and with work. A pound of gun power, can't be more than $20 bucks and it'll do hundreds of rounds I'm sure. 1,000 primers, will run you about $10. A hundred bullets the same, along with a hundred shells. If you scavenge from the range, the shells are free, after you inspect them to weed out bad casings. The prices aren't exact, but I don't see them being much more than that, and you could fit it all in your backpack.

Ammo production will resume, I'm sure. Get a chemistry nerd, a shooter, and a machinist, and I'm sure you'll see they'll start producing caseless ammo. A compressed block of propellent, a bullet buried in it, a primer mix painted on the rear of the cartridge, and a water resistant sealant on the outside. The German gun makers Heckler and Koch worked with the idea in the 80s but never took it anywhere really, as there wasn't much use-it had difficulty survivnig the conditions military ammo must survive, and militaries would have to retool to produce it, while metal cased ammo was superior.

Pyrodex, a black powder substitute, already makes compressed blocks of Pyrodex for muzzleloader shooters, and they make a round where the Pyrodex is mated to a bullet. Stuff it down the barrel, put a precussion cap on the nipple of the gun, and fire. Basically, my idea would be to paint the base of the Pyrodex or other suitable proprellent block with the primer material and use it like any other cartridge. I don't see existing guns firing it, so new guns would have to be made, or the old ones altered.