My new 5.56mm love.

[Norseman]

Any AR15/M16 affecionados here? If so, go to this site to see the latest Bushmaster Carbon 15 Pistol. This would be an awesome CQB weapon, especially indoors. If anyone can cut and post the picture from the site, I would appreciate it. All it needs is a trijicon red-dot sight and a taclight to be complete and take the pistol out of the "personal defense weapon" (PDW) realm and open up quite a few possiblities for offensive work

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/carb ... 15p21s.asp

Here I will post some specs from the site:
__________________________________________________
Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 21S Pistol
Suggested Retail Price: $ 995.00

The Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 21S pistol has top of the line features of the popular Type 97S rifle in a package that weighs less than three and a half pounds. The upper and lower receivers are molded of state of the art Carbon Fiber 15 material that offers incredible durability, strength and ultra-light weight. The pistol’s 7 1/4" stainless steel, match grade barrel is chambered for the 5.56 NATO cartridge and readily accepts the .223 Remington cartridge as well. A Quick Detachable Compensator on the barrel controls muzzle rise and felt recoil, and is easily removed by means of its spring loaded locking collar.

The P21S Upper Receiver features a full length anodized aluminum Picatinny rail that includes integral front and rear iron sights. The windage adjustable rear sight is a combination ghost ring and precision aperture flip-up. The square post front sights offers elevation adjustments for fine zeroing. The Picatinny rail allows the option of mounting a wide variety of auxiliary sighting systems such as long eye relief and standard scopes, red dot, holographic, or laser sights. The front and rear sling swivel studs allow for the secure attachment of slings and other accessories. Function controls on the Type 21S are in the familiar AR15 layout, and for additional safety, the safety selector lever markings are color coded on both sides of the lower receiver to quickly determine the firing status of the pistol.

Completely designed and manufactured in the U.S.A., the Bushmaster C15 Type 21S Pistol is shipped with Operator’s Manual, Warranty Card and 30 Round Magazine.

Caliber: 5.56mm or .223 Rem.

Magazine Capacity: 30 Rounds (accepts all M16/AR15 type)

Overall Length - Pistol: 20" [50.8 cm]

Barrel Length: 7.25" [18.42 cm]

Rifling: 1 turn in 9" [22.8 cm] R.H. twist / 6 grooves & lands

Weight w/o magazine - Pistol: 55.25 oz. (3.45 lbs.) [1.56 kg]

Weight of empty magazine: .25 lbs. [.11 kg]

Weight of loaded magazine: 1.0 lbs. [.45 kg]

Operation: Gas Operated

Mode of Operation: Semi-Automatic

[kyle]

Interesting.

You'll have to post some pictures of your new weapon once you get it all tacked out.

[Norseman]

In addition to the above mentioned items, a three point (chest) sling would be usefull for control/stabilization during rapid fire.

Unfortunately - no pics unless I find someone who has one and will let me snap a pic, as you know that I don't have any firearms Kyle . I'll see what I can do though.

[Mugwug]

Looks pretty slick.....

[-Jason-]

Won't the range suffer though?

[Norseman]

Won't the range suffer though?

Jason, it's a specialized tool to provide a small package while firing rifle caliber rounds (i.e.: more lethality, more penetration, and easily accessible ammo and mags). I wouldn't use it past 100 - 150 meters and expect to get reliable hits. The standard military M4 sacrifices range to the fullsize M16 for many of the same reasons, and like the M4, a red-dot scope will facilitate accuracy immensely. It would be in its element clearing buildings or in use from a vehicle or when exiting a vehicle, even more so than an M4.

BTW:Mugwug thanks for posting the pic.

[Norseman]

Here is a good article from a guy who test fired one. Click on the link for the story and other pictures referenced in the article. I highlighted his comment on muzzle velocity about 2/3 of the way down.

________________________________________________________

http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster-Pistol.htm

Bushmaster Carbon 15 Lightweight 5.56mm Pistol

by Jeff Quinn

During the past several years, Bushmaster Firearms in Windham, Maine has become the foremost producer of AR-15 type rifles for the civilian market. They produce a seemingly endless variety of high quality weapons for individuals and law enforcement. Starting as a supplier of parts and accessories for AR-15 and other type rifles, Bushmaster has risen to the top of the heap, producing many more AR-15 type rifles than their nearest competitor.

Now, Bushmaster has begun manufacturing the unique Carbon 15 series of rifles and pistols at their facility in Arizona. The Carbon 15 firearms feature a reinforced polymer upper and lower receiver, along with high quality stainless barrels. They are gas operated like other Bushmaster firearms, and come supplied with one ten-round magazine, but will use any AR-15/M16 magazine. Many of the internal parts are common with standard AR-15 rifles. The Carbon 15 series is chambered for the 5.56mm NATO cartridge, and will use the .223 Remington cartridge interchangeably.

We recently received the Type 97 Carbon 15 pistol for testing. The type 97 features a seven and one-quarter inch fluted stainless barrel that has a unique detachable muzzle brake. Sliding a spring loaded collar forward releases the brake for simple removal, without tools, and it pops right back on just as easily. While the 5.56mm cartridge has very little recoil already, the muzzle brake eliminates muzzle rise entirely. The stainless gas tube is covered by a ventilated heat shield that is very effective in protecting the hand from the hot tube during rapid firing of the weapon. The type 97 wears the very comfortable Hogue hard rubber pistol grip. The controls on the weapon will be very familiar to anyone who has used an AR-15 or M16 rifle. The safety positions are clearly and brightly marked. The magazine release is protected from accidental operation, but is readily accessible for quick magazine changes. The bolt locks open on an empty magazine, and has the familiar bolt release on the left side.

The overall length of the Carbon 15 pistol is twenty inches, but the weight is a feathery 46 ounces. That is lighter than a Ruger Super Blackhawk or a Smith & Wesson Classic .44 Magnum revolver. The Type 97 has a windage adjustable rear ghost ring sight with a ramped post front. The upper receiver is grooved to accept a special Picatinny scope mount base that securely attaches with one screw, and still allows the use of the open sights. Bushmaster also sells mounts to attach a flashlight or laser sight to the grooved barrel of the Type 97 pistol.

I was at first a bit apprehensive about firing the Carbon 15 pistol, thinking that the noise of shooting 5.56mm ammo in a gun with a seven and one-quarter inch barrel would be horrendous. As it turned out, the noise wasn’t bad at all wearing standard shooting muffs. I fired several types of 5.56mm and .223 ammo through the pistol for testing both functioning and accuracy. The intrinsic accuracy of the little AR is as good as any good rifle, but with the short barrel it is not meant to be a benchrest gun. I did not mount a large scope on the little gun as that would have been foolish, and not in keeping with the purpose of the compact and lightweight firearm, instead choosing to mount the excellent Trijicon Reflex dot sight. The Reflex is durable, accurate, and lightweight, and is perfectly suited to the Carbon 15 pistol. Reliability with all of the types of ammunition was flawless in the Type 97. Every round fed, fired, and ejected perfectly. The C15 ejected the empty brass to the right and rear of the shooter, without any damage to the cases. Many short barreled AR type weapons have reliability problems, but the Carbon 15 worked without a hitch, every time. The muzzle brake totally eliminated muzzle rise during firing, making it very easy to rapidly make multiple hits on the target. I really like the detachable feature of the muzzle brake. The design would make it easy to attach a flash hider or sound suppressor to the muzzle, should a shooter choose to legally obtain either.

This would be as good a place as any to discuss the purpose of the short little AR. There are places where this pistol would prove to be much handier than a rifle, such as in the confines of an automobile or a cramped hallway. For a police entry team, the Carbon 15 would be very maneuverable, while still carrying thirty rounds of 5.56mm firepower. Out of the short barrel, military ball and hollow point ammo has a velocity of over seventeen hundred feet per second, and has virtually no recoil. Rapid fire repeat hits are easy. Muzzle flash from the short barrel is bright, as can be seen in the accompanying photo, but a good flash hider would take care of that for those who need one.

There is also another place where this pistol excels, and it became apparent to me during the testing of the Carbon 15. Without a doubt, this pistol is one of the most downright fun guns to shoot that I have ever tried. Loading a GI surplus magazine with thirty rounds of ball ammo and blasting away at rocks and steel plates is, for some reason, extremely enjoyable! The lack of recoil and bright muzzle flash in rapid fire is a real hoot, and has to be experienced to be fully appreciated. There are times when a gun means the difference between life and death, and the Carbon 15 can fulfill that role if needed. There are also times when shooting should be relaxing and entertaining, without thinking about tactical drills and exercises. This pistol is very entertaining, for the shooter and observer alike. It is lightweight, handy, reliable, and just plain fun.

[Norseman]

Unlike the fellow above, I would probably go with the Eotech sight over the Reflex sight though. Here is a good explanation/review of the two from the same source. The ACOG costs more than the Reflex or Eotech, but it holds up well and is standard military issue. The only problem is that it doesn't provide any eye relief for use on a pistol.
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http://www.gunblast.com/Trijicon_ACOG.htm

The Trijicon Reflex Sight

The first sight reviewed here is the Reflex sight. This sight is most useful on targets as close as across a small room to as far out as three hundred yards. The Reflex is a red dot type of sight, but is not to be confused with the cheap, fragile electronic dot sights on the market. The Reflex uses both fiber optic and tritium technology to provide a quick and easily-seen aiming point under all lighting conditions. The tritium provides a red dot aiming point that is enhanced in bright light by the fiber optic system, providing a brighter reticle in bright conditions and a dimmer reticle in low light.

With the Reflex sight, one merely looks at the target with both eyes wide open, aligns the dot with the desired impact point, and squeezes the trigger. Nothing could be simpler. There are no batteries to maintain, and no switches to flip. The weapon is always ready. The point of impact is easily adjustable with the windage and elevation dials. Eye relief is not critical, so the weapon can be held in one hand if necessary. Aiming is as easy as looking at the target. In dark conditions, the red dot is not overwhelming, and the brightness self-adjusts to any light conditions. The Reflex provides no magnification, and is best suited out to three hundred yards on man-sized targets. This sight would be ideal on a police rifle, and is very easy to use. Weighing just a few ounces, it is very unobtrusive atop the rifle or carbine.

I mounted the Reflex sight on a flattop AR-15 for testing, and found that it was extremely easy to place shots accurately on target. Out to one hundred yards on man-sized targets, nothing that I have ever tried is faster than this sight.

Trijicon ACOG Sight

Filling the purpose of a more traditional scope sight is the Trijicon ACOG sight. In this role, the ACOG makes hitting accurately at long range easy, just as does a hunting type scope. The difference is strength and durability. While both compact and relatively light, the ACOG is built like a tank. ACOG is an acronym for Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight. The model tested is the TA31, which is a four power unit that uses both tritium and fiber optic technology to illuminate the reticle, which is graduated out to a range of 800 meters with the 5.56mm cartridge. The red circle reticle covers four minutes-of-angle (MOA), with a hollow center that covers 2 MOA. The ACOG sight is in use around the world by U.S. and coalition forces, and has been found to be very effective and rugged. The ACOG, like the reflex, uses no batteries, and is pretty much maintenance free. The reticle is very quick up close, and the four power magnification is useful at longer range. The ACOG has one and one-half inches of eye relief and an eight millimeter exit pupil. The field of view at one hundred yards is about thirty-seven feet. Weighing about three-quarters of a pound with the flattop mount, the ACOG is compact and relatively light, while offering the durability needed in a combat sight. It offers much greater hit probability for most shooters, and is a lifesaver in low light situations. I found that the ACOG made it much easier for me to get off a quick, accurate shot at extended range, and also very quick up close with the bright red four-minute dot.

For prices, specifications, and ordering information on either of these sights, or any other Trijicon product, check them out online at: www.trijicon.com.

[-Jason-]

I wonder if those are illegel in NJ yet? If not I would wanan get one.

[Norseman]

I wonder if those are illegel in NJ yet? If not I would wanan get one.

When you turn 18 - move .

I feel for you Jason.

[-Jason-]

I wonder if those are illegel in NJ yet? If not I would wanan get one.

When you turn 18 - move .

I feel for you Jason.

Its probably falls under the pistol catagorey which means I need to be 21. I need to move.

[grim]

I honestly dont know the answer to this but I thought it was illigal if under 16 in, unless thats just california? am I wrong?

[Oracle]

It's not illegal if it's under 16 inches if it's a pistol. If you put a buttstock on the end of that thing, it would become illegal.

[grim]

Then I love that gun, thank you very much for clearing that up, my first choice is my shotgun, and Ive been considering a .223, but didnt know how I would pack bolth, and one of this size would be no problem. thx

[ZETFleader]

Novelty guns

[Norseman]

I wonder if those are illegel in NJ yet? If not I would wanan get one.

When you turn 18 - move .

I feel for you Jason.

Its probably falls under the pistol catagorey which means I need to be 21. I need to move.

It is classified (registered upon production) as a pistol, so in most states (if not all) you will have to be 21 to buy it. It is legal for a relative to give you one as a gift when you are 18-20 as you are not buying it, but you can't give them money to buy it just to give to you or the BATFE will classify it as a "Strawman Purchase" if they find out and this is considered illegal as the federal forms for purchase of a gun will have been falsified.

So don't despair, unless there are state laws against an 18, 19, or 20 year old owning pistols, there is a good chance that you can still receive one as a gift - from what I understand.

Make sure you check all this out, because (1) I am no lawyer and this is just my understanding of the law (2) again, this is my understanding - and could be different from the actual law on this issue (3) I am far beyond 18 and therefore don't spend much time considering the issue as it doesn't effect me, and (4) the laws of a particular state may be at odds with what I am used to.

[ghostface]

It looks like it was meant to be a sub. I wonder if they make an auto/burst version?

[Nightside_Eclipse]

Can you hit anything with it though?

It looks sexy as hell but I wonder about the accuracy and controllability of those.

[Norseman]

It looks like it was meant to be a sub. I wonder if they make an auto/burst version?

They may for the LE market, but the light weight and lack of a shoulder stock would probably make it hard to control on full auto. As far as I know, it is strictly a semi-auto, but I could be wrong.

[Norseman]

Can you hit anything with it though?

It looks sexy as hell but I wonder about the accuracy and controllability of those.

Read the shooting report that I posted above. He was getting consistent hits on mansized targets at 100 yards using the reflex sight. I imagine with a good sight and a solid 3 point sling to give you an "anchor" when you extend your arms out, 100-150 meters is not a stretch for consistent shots.

In addition to CQB & a vehicle gun, it would also do well as a woods gun for camping/backpacking. It would ride in your pack all day with 3 30rd mags and not be all that noticable. If you sling it, it wouldn't be much more noticable (weight wise) than in the pack.

Its in its element though as a CQB point and shoot weapon.

[Norseman]

The one thing you can't appreciate about it until you handle one, is the weight. It is (for lack of a better word) "featherweight" due the carbon parts. Once you practiced a bit and had the accessories mentioned (ie: sight, sling, and a taclight), it would be an awesome CQB gun.

A friend of mine on the local SWAT Team was in the gunstore looking at one yesterday and he wants one (just doesn't want to shell out the bucks) for his entry gun, due to the factors previously mentioned, including/especially the 5.56mm aspect. Semi-auto is more than sufficient except in rare circumstances for this kind of work.

Carrying it uploaded with a 30 rd mag and two spare 30 rd mags in a thigh holster would give your entry team unbelievable firepower in close spaces where even using an M4 would be tight. The 5.56mm (.223) gives you penetration through hardened targets such as doors, walls, etc, and you can use different ammo for different reasons (such as HP for less over-penetration, or frangible rounds, etc). You could put your specialty ammo in 20 rd mags to easily ID them.

[Oracle]

That does seem like it would be a pretty kick ass CQB weapon. Light, easy to use, and with a good amount of firepower. If you could get it registered as a SBR (short barrelled rifle, requires a federal tax stamp, which requires $200 and the signature of the chief LEO of your municipality) you could slap a lightweight stock on the back of that thing, and it would be extremely useful.

[Norseman]

They make a second model (go here: http://www.bushmaster.com/ and click on the one on the right) with a picatanny rail on the bottom as well as the top. Mounting a forward pistol grip on that one would greatly increase control, not to mention, give you a surface to mount a taclight forward of that new grip.

You would just have to figure out where to mount your sling, as this rail replaces the front sling swivel mount.

The more I look into it the better it sounds for CQB.

[eexcessive]

The carbon 15 is definitely cool. Another option is a Krinkov pistol. The ones I've seen for sale are 5.56mm or 7.62x39. I don't know if the recoil on the 7.62 is controlable, but if it is it would be a "heavy hitter". Also the price is similar to the carbon 15, and best of all it's based on the uber reliable ak action.
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