Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by boskone » Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:53 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:24 pm
It's legal to make a gun if you are not prohibited by law from owning one. But you can't sell it without being licensed and registered.

P80 makes partial guns, which the ATF said is legal, because it is not yet a gun.

Now they decided that selling a blank and some parts in one package is "selling a gun." Which is roughly like saying "if you have a tire iron and some duct tape in your car, you are going to be accused of murder because you have tools which have, in some cases, been used to murder people." It is presuming a crime, instead of actually waiting until a crime happens. It is throwing away the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty.

That, anyway, is my take on it.
You're not wrong, but it's hardly unprecedented. E.g. areas in which possession of lockpicks is presumptive of intent to commit burglary, or even complications of already-illegal acts like posessing over a certain amount of drugs being considered prima facie evidence of intent to distribute.

Whether it's right or not is at least skirting the 'no politics' rule. But it is a general concept that's already worked it's way into the US legal system.

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by Zed Hunter » Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:14 pm

Just like if you buy a former class 3 kit, and purchase the parts to compleat it, storing them together, before disabling the select fire function. BATFE will charge you with intent to manufacture a machine gun.

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by Langenator » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:44 am

Zed Hunter wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:14 pm
Just like if you buy a former class 3 kit, and purchase the parts to compleat it, storing them together, before disabling the select fire function. BATFE will charge you with intent to manufacture a machine gun.
Or having a rifle registered AR lower, and a pistol upper: voila, conspiracy to build an unregistered SBR.

I believe there was a case in WA where a guy had owned both a full-auto VP-70 pistol, with stock and appropriate stamps, and also a semi-auto version, with no stock. He sold the full auto, but not the stock. ATF arrested him for having an unregistered SBR, even though he had never put the stock on the pistol.

Now, I'd love to see P80 run with the "you don't have to serialize AR lowers, because they don't meet the legal definition of a receiver" defense. It's gotten charges dropped on several small time defendants.
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by PistolPete » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:22 am

Yeah, the ATF has certainly prosecuted people based on what they call "constructive intent" in the past. It's why you have to be careful about what parts you keep around. I keep an extra pistol lower on hand all the time that doesn't have an upper just in case to make sure I'm covered if I order a sub-16" barrel to swap out or something like that. It's cheap insurance and a way to make sure I'm always 100% compliant with laws.
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by RoneKiln » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:23 pm

If the ATF caught a felon with a polymer80 kit, or caught a company knowingly and intentionally selling polymer80 kits to felons, I could understand the argument of constructive intent. I'm not hearing that at the moment. I'm hearing the ATF going after a company for selling a bundle of legal parts that can be used legally by law abiding citizens.

This sounds more like going after a company selling car parts on the assumption people will drive drunk while using those car parts. I've decided that's the analogy I'll use when explaining this to people that ask me about it. All my local auto parts stores are now "ghost car manufacturers." They sell all the parts for "assault trucks" that are more powerful than any typical driver truly needs for a daily commute. People with their licenses suspended will build their assault trucks and drive drunk with them.

I know that's ridiculous. It often works with my social group though.
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by RickOShea » Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:52 pm

TFB - ATF Visiting End Users; Requesting Forfeiture Of Polymer80 Kits

Earlier today TFB reported on a story in the Wall Street Journal stating that the ATF had apparently conducted a search warrant at Polymer80 Inc, a company known for producing 80% firearm kits and related parts. These 80% builds, often referred to as “Ghost Guns” by media outlets, presumably because they can be built into firearms without needing to visit an FFL, have long been a topic of debate. This morning, an anonymous TFB reader provided additional information pointing to the ATF visiting end users and requesting the forfeiture of certain Polymer80 kits.

The reader stated that on the afternoon of December 10, 2020, they were visited by the ATF and were requested to surrender any Polymer80 kits. The ATF took custody of the Buy Build Shoot Kit and provided them with a receipt for the property. In the “Basis for Transfer or Seizure of Items” box, the ATF agent wrote “Polymer80, Inc. Investigation”. The email to TFB stated:

"They are also going after customers. I had ATF at my house approximately 1pm yesterday telling me I need to surrender my P80 or he would return to raid my house with a warrant. Enclosed is my surrender sheet for proof. If anyone purchased a “Buy, Build, Shoot” kit from them they will probably be hearing from the ATF as well."
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by woodsghost » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:01 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:52 pm
TFB - ATF Visiting End Users; Requesting Forfeiture Of Polymer80 Kits

Earlier today TFB reported on a story in the Wall Street Journal stating that the ATF had apparently conducted a search warrant at Polymer80 Inc, a company known for producing 80% firearm kits and related parts. These 80% builds, often referred to as “Ghost Guns” by media outlets, presumably because they can be built into firearms without needing to visit an FFL, have long been a topic of debate. This morning, an anonymous TFB reader provided additional information pointing to the ATF visiting end users and requesting the forfeiture of certain Polymer80 kits.

The reader stated that on the afternoon of December 10, 2020, they were visited by the ATF and were requested to surrender any Polymer80 kits. The ATF took custody of the Buy Build Shoot Kit and provided them with a receipt for the property. In the “Basis for Transfer or Seizure of Items” box, the ATF agent wrote “Polymer80, Inc. Investigation”. The email to TFB stated:

"They are also going after customers. I had ATF at my house approximately 1pm yesterday telling me I need to surrender my P80 or he would return to raid my house with a warrant. Enclosed is my surrender sheet for proof. If anyone purchased a “Buy, Build, Shoot” kit from them they will probably be hearing from the ATF as well."
I expect this is just the beginning. I expect they will be around looking for more sooner or later. With the same tactics. There is advice online for how to talk to the ATF. Mostly it consists of asking for a lawyer and saying NOTHING else. At all. Ever. Except asking for a lawyer. Michael Flynn is an example of what happens when you don't speak through a lawyer. Even if the visit is friendly.
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by boskone » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:36 pm

Went with a coworker to sight in his new rifle, and I've never seen a rifle so far off to start with.

Supposedly it'd been boresighted, a status I seriously question as it was about 10 inches low and 14 inches left...at 25 yards. And since it rained yesterday, there was no puff of dust to look for.

We finally got it pretty well on, but after the first couple shots I actually had my coworker check it for squibs.

To the College Station area locals, I think I can actually recommend the Madison County Gun and Archery club. It's a bit of a drive, but the range setup's pretty nice. There's even a little kitchen area and a bbq pit. :lol:

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by PistolPete » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:52 pm

boskone wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:36 pm
Went with a coworker to sight in his new rifle, and I've never seen a rifle so far off to start with.

Supposedly it'd been boresighted, a status I seriously question as it was about 10 inches low and 14 inches left...at 25 yards. And since it rained yesterday, there was no puff of dust to look for.
What kind of rifle? Only thing I've ever seen off that much was an AK with a crooked front sight and a Steyr AUG with a built in optic that for some reason left the factory screwed entirely over to one side and down.

Now I have seen a bunch of Chinese optics that right out of the box were feet off at 25 yards, not sure if this was iron sights or an optic.
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by boskone » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:54 pm

PistolPete wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:52 pm
boskone wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:36 pm
Went with a coworker to sight in his new rifle, and I've never seen a rifle so far off to start with.

Supposedly it'd been boresighted, a status I seriously question as it was about 10 inches low and 14 inches left...at 25 yards. And since it rained yesterday, there was no puff of dust to look for.
What kind of rifle? Only thing I've ever seen off that much was an AK with a crooked front sight and a Steyr AUG with a built in optic that for some reason left the factory screwed entirely over to one side and down.

Now I have seen a bunch of Chinese optics that right out of the box were feet off at 25 yards, not sure if this was iron sights or an optic.
Savage Axis II in .243 with a Weaver scope of unknown specific model. Academy special: rifle and scope (supposedly boresighted) for $400.

This is the 4th Axis I've personally helped sight in, and while they're usually nowhere near deer-ready out of the box I've never seen one this far off.

Shot well otherwise, though, it just took us a while to figure out what the heck was going on. I'd still recommend the Axis package from Academy as a basic/beater/intro rifle any day, but I'd also recommend double-checking the bore sight before hitting the range.

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by PistolPete » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:32 pm

boskone wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:54 pm
Savage Axis II in .243 with a Weaver scope of unknown specific model. Academy special: rifle and scope (supposedly boresighted) for $400.

This is the 4th Axis I've personally helped sight in, and while they're usually nowhere near deer-ready out of the box I've never seen one this far off.

Shot well otherwise, though, it just took us a while to figure out what the heck was going on. I'd still recommend the Axis package from Academy as a basic/beater/intro rifle any day, but I'd also recommend double-checking the bore sight before hitting the range.
That makes sense, somebody just skipped the boresight step, it sounds like.
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by NT2C » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:39 pm

boskone wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:54 pm
PistolPete wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:52 pm
boskone wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:36 pm
Went with a coworker to sight in his new rifle, and I've never seen a rifle so far off to start with.

Supposedly it'd been boresighted, a status I seriously question as it was about 10 inches low and 14 inches left...at 25 yards. And since it rained yesterday, there was no puff of dust to look for.
What kind of rifle? Only thing I've ever seen off that much was an AK with a crooked front sight and a Steyr AUG with a built in optic that for some reason left the factory screwed entirely over to one side and down.

Now I have seen a bunch of Chinese optics that right out of the box were feet off at 25 yards, not sure if this was iron sights or an optic.
Savage Axis II in .243 with a Weaver scope of unknown specific model. Academy special: rifle and scope (supposedly boresighted) for $400.

This is the 4th Axis I've personally helped sight in, and while they're usually nowhere near deer-ready out of the box I've never seen one this far off.

Shot well otherwise, though, it just took us a while to figure out what the heck was going on. I'd still recommend the Axis package from Academy as a basic/beater/intro rifle any day, but I'd also recommend double-checking the bore sight before hitting the range.
Hmmm... my Savage Axis in .22WMR also was supposedly boresighted yet was hitting off the paper (18"x18") at 50 yards. Took a lot of shots to figure out where it was off (eventually reduced the range to 25 yards and caught one on the edge).
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by boskone » Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:03 pm

PistolPete wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:32 pm
boskone wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:54 pm
Savage Axis II in .243 with a Weaver scope of unknown specific model. Academy special: rifle and scope (supposedly boresighted) for $400.

This is the 4th Axis I've personally helped sight in, and while they're usually nowhere near deer-ready out of the box I've never seen one this far off.

Shot well otherwise, though, it just took us a while to figure out what the heck was going on. I'd still recommend the Axis package from Academy as a basic/beater/intro rifle any day, but I'd also recommend double-checking the bore sight before hitting the range.
That makes sense, somebody just skipped the boresight step, it sounds like.
NT2C wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:39 pm
Hmmm... my Savage Axis in .22WMR also was supposedly boresighted yet was hitting off the paper (18"x18") at 50 yards. Took a lot of shots to figure out where it was off (eventually reduced the range to 25 yards and caught one on the edge).
I think PistolPete hit the nail on the head. It's not, IMO, a huge deal either; just something to recommend people do beforehand in the future.

Academy says the scopes come boresighted from the factory, but I'd bet Savage is kicking those things out the door as fast as they come off the line right now. It's a fairly minor mistake.

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by NT2C » Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:37 am

boskone wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:03 pm
PistolPete wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:32 pm
boskone wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:54 pm
Savage Axis II in .243 with a Weaver scope of unknown specific model. Academy special: rifle and scope (supposedly boresighted) for $400.

This is the 4th Axis I've personally helped sight in, and while they're usually nowhere near deer-ready out of the box I've never seen one this far off.

Shot well otherwise, though, it just took us a while to figure out what the heck was going on. I'd still recommend the Axis package from Academy as a basic/beater/intro rifle any day, but I'd also recommend double-checking the bore sight before hitting the range.
That makes sense, somebody just skipped the boresight step, it sounds like.
NT2C wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:39 pm
Hmmm... my Savage Axis in .22WMR also was supposedly boresighted yet was hitting off the paper (18"x18") at 50 yards. Took a lot of shots to figure out where it was off (eventually reduced the range to 25 yards and caught one on the edge).
I think PistolPete hit the nail on the head. It's not, IMO, a huge deal either; just something to recommend people do beforehand in the future.

Academy says the scopes come boresighted from the factory, but I'd bet Savage is kicking those things out the door as fast as they come off the line right now. It's a fairly minor mistake.
Mine was purchase three years ago. That would seem to indicate this is an ongoing problem.
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:01 pm

This is why I'm always hesitant to buy scoped combo hunting rifles that claim to be factory boresighted.

Like who did the boresighting ?

Was it Bob the ex-Army sniper or was it Jerry, the guy with one glass left eye and is legally blind in the right one ?

Or was it Frank the new guy who just started working there and has no idea what end of the rifle the bullet comes out of ?

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by boskone » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:07 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:01 pm
This is why I'm always hesitant to buy scoped combo hunting rifles that claim to be factory boresighted.

Like who did the boresighting ?

Was it Bob the ex-Army sniper or was it Jerry, the guy with one glass left eye and is legally blind in the right one ?

Or was it Frank the new guy who just started working there and has no idea what end of the rifle the bullet comes out of ?
Well, if the price is right you're not losing anything over purchasing separately.

I'll just always recommend people boresight their rifles, regardless of whether it supposedly already has been.

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:32 pm

boskone wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:07 pm
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:01 pm
This is why I'm always hesitant to buy scoped combo hunting rifles that claim to be factory boresighted.

Like who did the boresighting ?

Was it Bob the ex-Army sniper or was it Jerry, the guy with one glass left eye and is legally blind in the right one ?

Or was it Frank the new guy who just started working there and has no idea what end of the rifle the bullet comes out of ?
Well, if the price is right you're not losing anything over purchasing separately.

I'll just always recommend people boresight their rifles, regardless of whether it supposedly already has been.
That's pretty much my plan if I ever buy a scoped rifle.

Right now the only optics I've got are red dots and I've got those pretty well sighted in. I just need to hit the range and make sure my sights are correct and make adjustments if I need to.

That'll have to wait until next year when the weather heats up because screw going to the range when it's cold. My "range" is in the middle of nowhere and is pretty much in the open with little to no cover from wind and zero from the sun.

NT2C can vouch for that since he was there last November.

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by NT2C » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:48 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:01 pm
This is why I'm always hesitant to buy scoped combo hunting rifles that claim to be factory boresighted.

Like who did the boresighting ?

Was it Bob the ex-Army sniper or was it Jerry, the guy with one glass left eye and is legally blind in the right one ?

Or was it Frank the new guy who just started working there and has no idea what end of the rifle the bullet comes out of ?
Whoa! Is Jerry that Russian guy who used to live near Chernobyl? Because you sorta implied he has more than one left eye and that sure sounds like that Russian guy who's supposed to have some "extra" bits...

And yeah, your range was... How to put this kindly? A lot less than I thought it would be. I was kinda hoping for a bench or table, maybe a roof, some target stands, other shooters... :lol: It served its purpose though. Still, one day I'd like to get you to a better range, even if I have to drag you up to Idaho.
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by PistolPete » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:14 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:32 pm
That'll have to wait until next year when the weather heats up because screw going to the range when it's cold. My "range" is in the middle of nowhere and is pretty much in the open with little to no cover from wind and zero from the sun.
Does it even get that cold in Texas? Sack up, son! As the Swedish say- "There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing.".

That said I have a few vacation days I have to burn before the end of the year and I am doing one of them this Friday, the one day this week that's going to break out of the 30's. :D
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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:20 pm

NT2C wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:48 pm
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:01 pm
This is why I'm always hesitant to buy scoped combo hunting rifles that claim to be factory boresighted.

Like who did the boresighting ?

Was it Bob the ex-Army sniper or was it Jerry, the guy with one glass left eye and is legally blind in the right one ?

Or was it Frank the new guy who just started working there and has no idea what end of the rifle the bullet comes out of ?
Whoa! Is Jerry that Russian guy who used to live near Chernobyl? Because you sorta implied he has more than one left eye and that sure sounds like that Russian guy who's supposed to have some "extra" bits...

And yeah, your range was... How to put this kindly? A lot less than I thought it would be. I was kinda hoping for a bench or table, maybe a roof, some target stands, other shooters... :lol: It served its purpose though. Still, one day I'd like to get you to a better range, even if I have to drag you up to Idaho.
Nah, Jerry is the guy that used to live near Ten Mile Island. I think he used to work there. Said something about being a former nuclear technician. :lol:

And yeah, the range is lacking in a lot of comforts. Only saving grace for it is that it was free.

Beats driving to Odessa and spending 50 bucks each time I want to go shoot, though.
PistolPete wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:14 pm
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:32 pm
That'll have to wait until next year when the weather heats up because screw going to the range when it's cold. My "range" is in the middle of nowhere and is pretty much in the open with little to no cover from wind and zero from the sun.
Does it even get that cold in Texas? Sack up, son! As the Swedish say- "There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing.".

That said I have a few vacation days I have to burn before the end of the year and I am doing one of them this Friday, the one day this week that's going to break out of the 30's. :D
Again, my "range" is in the middle of nowhere with fuck all for cover or anything resembling comfort. :lol:

Now that I think of it, there's an indoor range in Odessa and they do rent guns if I decide I don't want to waste my ammo. Last time I was in there, they had a Maxim 9 integrally suppressed pistol to rent.

I ever win the lotto, I'm definitely buying one of those. And a Winchester Model 1895 Russian Contract Musket because I won't care about the cost then. :clap:

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by boskone » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:06 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:32 pm
boskone wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:07 pm
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:01 pm
This is why I'm always hesitant to buy scoped combo hunting rifles that claim to be factory boresighted.

Like who did the boresighting ?

Was it Bob the ex-Army sniper or was it Jerry, the guy with one glass left eye and is legally blind in the right one ?

Or was it Frank the new guy who just started working there and has no idea what end of the rifle the bullet comes out of ?
Well, if the price is right you're not losing anything over purchasing separately.

I'll just always recommend people boresight their rifles, regardless of whether it supposedly already has been.
That's pretty much my plan if I ever buy a scoped rifle.

Right now the only optics I've got are red dots and I've got those pretty well sighted in. I just need to hit the range and make sure my sights are correct and make adjustments if I need to.
My 5.56 upper has a 1-4x scope, which is apparently now dubbed a "Low-Power Variable Optic", and the military's using the idea. Almost an't wait for some gun-hostile person to call it a military-style setup, so that I can point out that I used it several years before the military. Jokes aside, it works well for the kind of shooting I do with 5.56.

My 6.5 is set up as a medium-range rifle, and so has a 2-7x. I suppose you could kinda use 2x as an RDS, but...eh.

I can see taking snap shots with my 5.56, as it's kind of my brush gun, but not the Grendel.

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by boskone » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:17 pm

PistolPete wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:14 pm
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:32 pm
That'll have to wait until next year when the weather heats up because screw going to the range when it's cold. My "range" is in the middle of nowhere and is pretty much in the open with little to no cover from wind and zero from the sun.
Does it even get that cold in Texas? Sack up, son! As the Swedish say- "There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing.".
Kinda, yea, depending on where in Texas. Out in west Texas, I remember as a kid having to heavily bundle up in the mornings (long johns, balaclava, jacket, insulated overalls, heavy socks with insulated boots, and gloves with liners)...then playing soccer in shorts in the afternoon.

Here on the coast, though, since we have the warm Gulf currents it's more moderate. We only dip below freezing a couple dozen or so times a year, and that overnight. (Which can be dangerous, because it starts to thaw just when people are driving to work.)

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by 91Eunozs » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:05 am

So a (non-gun owner) co-worker asked me to take a huge tote of ammo off his hands...he found it in a shed on his property he got from his wife’s family. Mostly shotgun shells...410, 20, and 12-gauge...plus some really gross-looking .22LR and .45 ACP and some 30-06 too. Found one 220 swift round too, but have only scratched the surface...

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Before we get all excited, it’s been sitting there since at least 2013 according to his wife. It’s clearly gotten wet at some point, and it looks like rodents have gotten into it as well.

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I think I’ll save that single 50-rd box of CCI .22 that’s still in the plastic box, and pull the bullets from the .45 to salvage the brass, but just bury the rest out at the ranch. Looks kind of iffy to me

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Re: Firearms CHAT: [2020 - Year of the Squib]

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:27 am

I'm no expert, but I'd definitely say those rounds are not worth the risk.

Some of the projectiles may be salvageable, but the majority of it looks too far gone to save. That's a shame as well. Looked like it was a pretty decent stash at one point.

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