Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Bearcat » Thu May 10, 2018 9:23 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Bearcat wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
flybynight wrote: I know I've been looking at those for awhile. I also can't seem to curb the urge to buy one of those Star BM's everyone seems to have for right around $200. (outer voice ) What do I need with a four inch barreled , low capacity 1911 shaped 9mm ?
( inner voice ) SILENCE !!! PRODUCE THE PLASTIC GUN BUYING CARD NAMED VISA AND ORDER INSTANTLY !!!
I've been fighting the same urge to buy one of those Star pistols as well. My inner voice keeps telling me that I don't really need one, but at the same time it's also saying "What the hell. Go for it. Who knows how long these things will stay cheap."

Lowest capacity gun I have at the moment is my Mosin and I think it needs another low capacity friend. :D
Let me save you both the hassle and disappointment. My brother bought a star model B about a decade ago give or take a few years. I liked his so much I bought one too. They shot great, but then the problems started. One day at the range, my brothers extractor, pin and spring broke and flew off the gun. We couldn't find the parts. The extractor on the stars is exposed on the right side of slide. Took months if not a year to find parts but we could never find an extractor that aligned with the pin hole. A gun smith had to fill the extractor hole and re drill the pin hole to fit the gun. Then my gun started jamming. I tried cleaning and oiling, different ammo and even replaced the recoil spring to no avail. Rather than sinking more money into it, I sold it. My brother ended up selling his at the same time.

TL;DR Spare parts for the star B's are very hard to come by, guns are junk in reliability.

ETA: Forgot to add that after the gunsmith smithed a new extractor to the gun, he had to weld and re-shape the end of the extractor on the little nub that grabs the bullet casing because the extractor wouldn't grab the casing.
Looks like you just saved me some money, Bearcat. Thanks for the info.

I guess I'll go back to my original idea of finding a decent Tokarev to go with my Mosin. Anyone got any leads on those ?
In my personal experience, surplus rifles are usually great but the handguns are shit. In addition to the Star, I have had a cz-82, cz-52 and a nagant revolver all with problems. I only put the nagant revolver on the list because although it worked, it has the worst trigger I have ever experienced. The "new york" trigger doesn't have shit on the nagant.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Thu May 10, 2018 9:25 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Bearcat wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
flybynight wrote: I know I've been looking at those for awhile. I also can't seem to curb the urge to buy one of those Star BM's everyone seems to have for right around $200. (outer voice ) What do I need with a four inch barreled , low capacity 1911 shaped 9mm ?
( inner voice ) SILENCE !!! PRODUCE THE PLASTIC GUN BUYING CARD NAMED VISA AND ORDER INSTANTLY !!!
I've been fighting the same urge to buy one of those Star pistols as well. My inner voice keeps telling me that I don't really need one, but at the same time it's also saying "What the hell. Go for it. Who knows how long these things will stay cheap."

Lowest capacity gun I have at the moment is my Mosin and I think it needs another low capacity friend. :D
Let me save you both the hassle and disappointment. My brother bought a star model B about a decade ago give or take a few years. I liked his so much I bought one too. They shot great, but then the problems started. One day at the range, my brothers extractor, pin and spring broke and flew off the gun. We couldn't find the parts. The extractor on the stars is exposed on the right side of slide. Took months if not a year to find parts but we could never find an extractor that aligned with the pin hole. A gun smith had to fill the extractor hole and re drill the pin hole to fit the gun. Then my gun started jamming. I tried cleaning and oiling, different ammo and even replaced the recoil spring to no avail. Rather than sinking more money into it, I sold it. My brother ended up selling his at the same time.

TL;DR Spare parts for the star B's are very hard to come by, guns are junk in reliability.

ETA: Forgot to add that after the gunsmith smithed a new extractor to the gun, he had to weld and re-shape the end of the extractor on the little nub that grabs the bullet casing because the extractor wouldn't grab the casing.
Looks like you just saved me some money, Bearcat. Thanks for the info.

I guess I'll go back to my original idea of finding a decent Tokarev to go with my Mosin. Anyone got any leads on those ?
http://www.classicfirearms.com/catalogs ... ?q=tokarev

Some good prices.

http://www.southernohiogun.com/handguns ... 5-cal.html

I think Apex might have some too? But I need to go to bed.

Buy mags. Mags can be way overpriced. I keep lusting for a Tokarev too. But I need it less than I need a shiny S&W.

Or a GP100.....
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Thu May 10, 2018 9:46 pm

Thanks for the links, Woodsghost.

After buying that AR and G17 last month, I'm probably not going to be buying any more guns for the foreseeable future. I'm at a point in my life where I want to focus more on other areas of prepping than the defensive side of things.

I need to beef up my food and medical preps a bit more and that's where my funds will go now.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Bearcat » Thu May 10, 2018 10:02 pm

Another revolver that around the $200 range is the rock island M200. https://www.classicfirearms.com/rock-is ... 200-38-spl

I love mine. It's a pretty smooth action for how cheap the gun is. Bobbed/knurled hammer and decent sights. My only complaint about it is the old colt style cylinder release where you pull it back to open vs. the S&W push button I prefer. Some also complain that the barrel isn't crowned. Oh well, it's a 4" 38 special, not a 500 yard target rifle.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Thu May 10, 2018 10:13 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote: I need to beef up my food and medical preps a bit more and that's where my funds will go now.
I'm glad to hear that and I think it is a wise move. Which is weird to day in the firearms chat.

I also like training. I've said elsewhere I think my wife and I need to do a first aid/CPR course. Refresher for me, and starter for her.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by flybynight » Thu May 10, 2018 10:19 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Bearcat wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
flybynight wrote: I know I've been looking at those for awhile. I also can't seem to curb the urge to buy one of those Star BM's everyone seems to have for right around $200. (outer voice ) What do I need with a four inch barreled , low capacity 1911 shaped 9mm ?
( inner voice ) SILENCE !!! PRODUCE THE PLASTIC GUN BUYING CARD NAMED VISA AND ORDER INSTANTLY !!!
I've been fighting the same urge to buy one of those Star pistols as well. My inner voice keeps telling me that I don't really need one, but at the same time it's also saying "What the hell. Go for it. Who knows how long these things will stay cheap."

Lowest capacity gun I have at the moment is my Mosin and I think it needs another low capacity friend. :D
Let me save you both the hassle and disappointment. My brother bought a star model B about a decade ago give or take a few years. I liked his so much I bought one too. They shot great, but then the problems started. One day at the range, my brothers extractor, pin and spring broke and flew off the gun. We couldn't find the parts. The extractor on the stars is exposed on the right side of slide. Took months if not a year to find parts but we could never find an extractor that aligned with the pin hole. A gun smith had to fill the extractor hole and re drill the pin hole to fit the gun. Then my gun started jamming. I tried cleaning and oiling, different ammo and even replaced the recoil spring to no avail. Rather than sinking more money into it, I sold it. My brother ended up selling his at the same time.

TL;DR Spare parts for the star B's are very hard to come by, guns are junk in reliability.

ETA: Forgot to add that after the gunsmith smithed a new extractor to the gun, he had to weld and re-shape the end of the extractor on the little nub that grabs the bullet casing because the extractor wouldn't grab the casing.
Looks like you just saved me some money, Bearcat. Thanks for the info.

I guess I'll go back to my original idea of finding a decent Tokarev to go with my Mosin. Anyone got any leads on those ?
Same site ( sog) has Yugo tokarevs for $209
Hey raptor sog has those 64's on sale for $239
As of now I bet you got me wrong

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Thu May 10, 2018 10:30 pm

The ones for $239 have a bobbed hammer and are DAO unless the hammer is replaced.

I generally use the surplus firearms as range toys and shooters only. However i have had good results with surplus Makarovs. YMMV.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by flybynight » Thu May 10, 2018 10:39 pm

Yeah that is kinda a plus to me. That gun would go into carry category
As of now I bet you got me wrong

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Thu May 10, 2018 10:41 pm

Bearcat wrote:Another revolver that around the $200 range is the rock island M200. https://www.classicfirearms.com/rock-is ... 200-38-spl

I love mine. It's a pretty smooth action for how cheap the gun is. Bobbed/knurled hammer and decent sights. My only complaint about it is the old colt style cylinder release where you pull it back to open vs. the S&W push button I prefer. Some also complain that the barrel isn't crowned. Oh well, it's a 4" 38 special, not a 500 yard target rifle.
I have seen those and wondered about them. Would you recommend them for an inexpensive self defense bed table piece for a novice? Did it need any polishing out of the box?

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Thu May 10, 2018 10:48 pm

flybynight wrote:Yeah that is kinda a plus to me. That gun would go into carry category
My preference is SA/DA.
I have a couple of model 65s (which are similar) and they are heavy and large for CCW. They are more of an OWB carry type revolver IMO.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Thu May 10, 2018 11:07 pm

Smith & Wesson is bringing back the Model 19 K-frame

Smith announced Friday they are rebooting a long-dormant production line and returning the vaunted Model 19 to service in two models.

The classic wheelgun that modern gunfighter Bill Jordan envisioned in the 1950s as the .357 Combat Magnum was the gold standard for generations of lawmen and was issued to the U.S. Border Patrol and the FBI before those agencies moved to semi-autos. While the gun was updated over the years, the final non-stainless variant, the 19-8, dropped from Smith’s line in 1999 after an almost half-century run. Today’s new Model 19, true to form, is chambered in .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum and will be available in both a Classic and Performance Center version.


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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Stercutus » Fri May 11, 2018 6:33 am

I wish they would bring back the Python. I know it wouldn't be the same but trying to find one at a reasonable price these days is nigh impossible. Its the first gun I ever bought for the wife and it looks just as good today as it did the day she pulled it out of the box.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Fri May 11, 2018 9:37 am




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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Fri May 11, 2018 11:31 am

Ok this is a new one on me.

A pistol with a whittle your own grip option.

They bill it as a customizable grip. :lol:

https://www.classicfirearms.com/century ... 1haWwuY29t

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Fri May 11, 2018 12:01 pm

raptor wrote:Ok this is a new one on me.

A pistol with a whittle your own grip option.

They bill it as a customizable grip. :lol:
Century trusts their drunk monkeys with welders....but not sharp things like whittling knives?


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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Bearcat » Fri May 11, 2018 3:32 pm

raptor wrote:
Bearcat wrote:Another revolver that around the $200 range is the rock island M200. https://www.classicfirearms.com/rock-is ... 200-38-spl

I love mine. It's a pretty smooth action for how cheap the gun is. Bobbed/knurled hammer and decent sights. My only complaint about it is the old colt style cylinder release where you pull it back to open vs. the S&W push button I prefer. Some also complain that the barrel isn't crowned. Oh well, it's a 4" 38 special, not a 500 yard target rifle.
I have seen those and wondered about them. Would you recommend them for an inexpensive self defense bed table piece for a novice? Did it need any polishing out of the box?
Actually, I have used it as a night stand gun for years. I would recommend it for a novice and as an inexpensive gun. I have never torture tested it or tried to run it hard (like 1000rds without cleaning or oiling) but it shoots and feels like a really solid gun. I did not feel the need to polish anything out of the box. Could you? Probably, but why? Disclaimer: Take my recommendation for what you will as some guy on the internet.

Also, it doesn't take +P ammo, if that matters to you.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Sat May 12, 2018 8:40 pm

Well I had an amazing day today. I got invited to a cool event where lots of cool guns were present. I got to shoot full auto for the first time in my life. That was really cool! I shot an AC556 converted to 22LR and sporting a suppressor. That was so much fun.

I also noticed a lot of guns start to malfunction after shooting 300-1000 rounds of cheap crappy ammo without cleaning. I've noticed this at events and training. This seems to be true of rifles, submachine guns, PCCs, braced pistols, and regular pistols. No matter how reliable a gun normally is, shooting cheap crappy manufactured ammo or cheap handloads results in an increasing rate of malfunctions. I can't tell you how many times I heard "oh wow! This has never done this before" and "I"ve never seen this before." This includes some extremely high end guns which run more than $2000 and some of which were reaching $3000. Those who ran really high quality ammo seemed to have fewer issues, but they also had higher expenditures.

However, I"ll say the AK seems to be the king of eating and digesting crappy ammo. This is based on my 8 years and around 10,000 rounds of observing my friend's and my own AKs. I just don't see AKs fail. Well, my AKs had trouble with some garbage Korean mags. And one time I had a yugo round fail to feed and do some weird stuff. But otherwise, I have never had an AK fail. No matter how cruddy the ammo and no matter how long it had been since I'd cleaned it, my AKs have been reliable. The AKs of my friends have been reliable. So I know many other guns are good and considered very reliable. I have not seen too many 7.62x51 guns in the wild. Only 2, and one was a Saiga which has always been flawless. So I"m thinking the AK vs. AR debate and the reputation the AK has earned is probably based on the digesting of dirty and cheap ammo. Plenty of tests have shown the AR does well in certain dirty conditions due to a more closed design. But I keep seeing issues with ARs in group settings with high round counts. I now think it probably depends on the quality of ammo, while the AK runs the same with good or poor ammo. But Afgan and Iraqi handloads will still cause performance issues with the AK.

Another thing I learned today is semi-auto shotguns really DO shoot softer than pump action shotguns. I had always read this, but today I got to experience it as I set records for the number of soda can skeet I annihilated (fired from a Can Cannon). I can also say the Benelli M3 is an awesome gun. Seriously. this was a terrific gun to fire. I now understand why people buy expensive guns. And I think it is well worth getting a semi-auto for HD. While the price sucks, there really is more reliability because you don't have to remember to pump the gun. Just keep stuffing shells and pulling the trigger.

Lastly, it was interesting to see suppressors seem to increase reliability. This is in the context of shooting crappy ammo, but it seems most of the PCCs and submachine guns ran better with suppressors than without. I don't know if others have had this experience.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Sat May 12, 2018 8:46 pm

woodsghost wrote:Well I had an amazing day today. I got invited to a cool event where lots of cool guns were present. I got to shoot full auto for the first time in my life. That was really cool! I shot an AC556 converted to 22LR and sporting a suppressor. That was so much fun.

I also noticed a lot of guns start to malfunction after shooting 300-1000 rounds of cheap crappy ammo without cleaning. I've noticed this at events and training. This seems to be true of rifles, submachine guns, PCCs, braced pistols, and regular pistols. No matter how reliable a gun normally is, shooting cheap crappy manufactured ammo or cheap handloads results in an increasing rate of malfunctions. I can't tell you how many times I heard "oh wow! This has never done this before" and "I"ve never seen this before." This includes some extremely high end guns which run more than $2000 and some of which were reaching $3000. Those who ran really high quality ammo seemed to have fewer issues, but they also had higher expenditures.

However, I"ll say the AK seems to be the king of eating and digesting crappy ammo. This is based on my 8 years and around 10,000 rounds of observing my friend's and my own AKs. I just don't see AKs fail. Well, my AKs had trouble with some garbage Korean mags. And one time I had a yugo round fail to feed and do some weird stuff. But otherwise, I have never had an AK fail. No matter how cruddy the ammo and no matter how long it had been since I'd cleaned it, my AKs have been reliable. The AKs of my friends have been reliable. So I know many other guns are good and considered very reliable. I have not seen too many 7.62x51 guns in the wild. Only 2, and one was a Saiga which has always been flawless. So I"m thinking the AK vs. AR debate and the reputation the AK has earned is probably based on the digesting of dirty and cheap ammo. Plenty of tests have shown the AR does well in certain dirty conditions due to a more closed design. But I keep seeing issues with ARs in group settings with high round counts. I now think it probably depends on the quality of ammo, while the AK runs the same with good or poor ammo. But Afgan and Iraqi handloads will still cause performance issues with the AK.

Another thing I learned today is semi-auto shotguns really DO shoot softer than pump action shotguns. I had always read this, but today I got to experience it as I set records for the number of soda can skeet I annihilated (fired from a Can Cannon). I can also say the Benelli M3 is an awesome gun. Seriously. this was a terrific gun to fire. I now understand why people buy expensive guns. And I think it is well worth getting a semi-auto for HD. While the price sucks, there really is more reliability because you don't have to remember to pump the gun. Just keep stuffing shells and pulling the trigger.

Lastly, it was interesting to see suppressors seem to increase reliability. This is in the context of shooting crappy ammo, but it seems most of the PCCs and submachine guns ran better with suppressors than without. I don't know if others have had this experience.

It is nice to have cool friends.
For reliability, the AK design just can't be beat.

I'm glad you had fun. :D

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Langenator » Sat May 12, 2018 8:59 pm

I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the AK was DESIGNED for crappy, dirty, indifferently-QCed ComBloc ammo. (Two features which contribute to this: the AK is massively over-gassed (much like turning the gas regulator on a M-240 or M-249 to the 'winter' setting) and it has a huge extractor claw to keep from ripping through the case rim).

But LuckyGunner's 10,000 round test would seem to indicate that at least Wolf and Brown Bear do OK through AR-15s as well (15 and 9 failures, respectively, out of 10,000 rounds, and 1 of the BB's failures was a mag failure), at least until the bi-metal bullets wear out the barrels.

But that's factory ammo. Handloads are a whole different kettle of fish.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Sat May 12, 2018 9:33 pm

woodsghost wrote:Well I had an amazing day today. I got invited to a cool event where lots of cool guns were present. I got to shoot full auto for the first time in my life. That was really cool! I shot an AC556 converted to 22LR and sporting a suppressor. That was so much fun.
Waaay back in college I had a buddy who had his class 3. He had several FA guns, but my favorite was a full-auto 10/22 with a suppressor......probably cause it was cheaper to feed than his centerfires. :rofl:
Another thing I learned today is semi-auto shotguns really DO shoot softer than pump action shotguns. I had always read this, but today I got to experience it as I set records for the number of soda can skeet I annihilated (fired from a Can Cannon).
Well, you have two components to recoil: the ft/lbs of energy and the recoil velocity. The actions on a lot of self-loading shotties slow down that recoil velocity a bit, so you get the feel of the recoil energy spread out over a longer period of time....turning it into more of a push than a slap.
Last edited by RickOShea on Sat May 12, 2018 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Sat May 12, 2018 9:34 pm

Langenator wrote:I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the AK was DESIGNED for crappy, dirty, indifferently-QCed ComBloc ammo. (Two features which contribute to this: the AK is massively over-gassed (much like turning the gas regulator on a M-240 or M-249 to the 'winter' setting) and it has a huge extractor claw to keep from ripping through the case rim).

But LuckyGunner's 10,000 round test would seem to indicate that at least Wolf and Brown Bear do OK through AR-15s as well (15 and 9 failures, respectively, out of 10,000 rounds, and 1 of the BB's failures was a mag failure), at least until the bi-metal bullets wear out the barrels.

But that's factory ammo. Handloads are a whole different kettle of fish.
Thank you for the link! And I think you must be right about their designs.

I noticed this in the link:
The rifles were cleaned according to a preset schedule and temperatures were monitored and kept within acceptable limits (more below)
And this:
Which Ammo Was Most Reliable?
The data which will probably be most interesting to everyone who reads this article is how often each rifle malfunctioned. To satisfy that particular thirst, here are the basic results:

Federal: 10,000 rounds, 0 malfunctions.
Brown Bear: 10,000 rounds, 9 malfunctions (5 stuck cases, 1 magazine-related failure to feed, 3 failures to fully cycle)
Wolf: 10,000 rounds, 15 malfunctions (stuck cases)
Tula: DNF (6,000 rounds in alternate carbine, 3 malfunctions)

In my experience in group shoots and classes, I think I see ARs fail at a rate near 15-20 per 10,000 rounds. I attribute this to 1) crappy ammo, 2) questionable mags, 3) dirty guns, and 4) sometimes questionable quality rifles. I have seen good ARs with good ammo go down, but more often I see questionable ammo and questionable mags at fault.

Also....running grease as a lubricant in 10*F weather can cause issues for ARs.....but not for my AK so far (that was an interesting class). Lighter weight oil will keep the AK running at -20*F while that grease will cause stickiness..... not failures, surprisingly, just serious slugishness...

FYI ;)


EDIT: So how does this relate to prepping? If one is wanting to buy and stack ammo deep, or wanting a gun which will work with all the ammos in some PAW/Zombie event, I really think the AK is something to look at (assuming quality metallurgy). I know people say the AR is now cheaper than the AK, and the initial purchase is, but the cheap ammo can be bought and used and stacked deep, while an AR should probably be fed with quality mags (cheap) and quality ammo (not cheap). So I think a longer view might still favor the AK if one is considering stacking ammo deep. If considering 30 cal, the AK ammo is WAY cheaper than AR ammo (7.62x39 vs. 300 BO).

If you have an AR for a crazy event, I strongly suggest possessing good quality ammo. If using the AK, I think you can get away with cheaper ammo. However, that opens a whole door for discussion about what to look for in ammo and what is needed. Which I opinions on, but I"ll shut up here.
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00dlez
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by 00dlez » Tue May 15, 2018 3:52 pm

Anyone have any experience with Great Lake Holsters? Looking at maybe getting a IWB for my Glock 17 - limited reviews on their site and sparse info otherwise...

http://greatlakesholsters.com/glock-17- ... d-holster/
Image

OR ... Anyone have strong opinions on a good G17 IWB holster that that can accept an TLR 1 Light equipped as well?

I'm looking for something that is on the minimalist side of things - it mainly lives in the nightstand drawer and would get clipped to gymshorts or similar when things go bump. The Great Lake holster isn't slim, but that fat, "easy" clip looks like it would suit my needs quite well.
Batman has a pretty good EDC. - Purple_Mutant

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Stercutus » Tue May 15, 2018 4:24 pm

Don't see how you can go wrong for $40.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Tue May 15, 2018 4:29 pm

Stercutus wrote:Don't see how you can go wrong for $40.
Yeah. That little money if it doesn't work out.

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