Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

General discussions regarding topics that aren't covered in one of the other sub-forums. NO DISCUSSION OF POLITICS!

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:28 pm

Folks I am not happy about any of this crap surrounding firearms but we need to stay away from politics here.

If you want to discuss the politics of this matter please take it to PMs. Unlike a certain social media ZS is does not monitor or "scrape"PMs.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by flybynight » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:57 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
flybynight wrote:
I was told it was the muzzle blast from an AR that took out Hiroshima. It was being aimed at Nagasaki By aimed I mean in the complete opposite direction and then it's lethal bullet flew around the world gaining intensity and power before striking it's intended target with 20 kilotons of rage several days later.
That's the narrative of the revisionist media agenda. It's common knowledge that Nagasaki was taken out by a high capacity magazineclip dropped from a pre ban, fully semi-automatic, B29 assault plane flying at 28,900 ft. There's a replica of the Nagasaki magazineclip in the Jimmy Carter museum, I saw it in person a few years ago. Very scary looking piece of military technology I have to say.
OMG !!! Fully semi automatic ? The horror. That's like super dark munjo black magic. You know every time someone touches one of those magazineclips a cute fluffy puppy dies. It's like automatic evil.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:37 pm


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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:06 pm

Two words spring to mind: confirmation bias
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:31 pm

The people who sneer at guns for self-defense and say it is a super rare event then turn around and say...
The Post notes that "a more reasonable estimate" of self-defense gun uses equals about 100,000 annually, according to the NCVS data.
So.....we should sneer at a mere 100,000 victimization which were averted? Seems reasonable.

How many people are murdered by guns each year? One anti-gun website says 13,000? So....Roughly 8 good uses (conservatively) to every 1 bad use (depending on how you get your numbers). Ok. I"m glad we have actual math and numbers on this sort of thing.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:32 pm

woodsghost wrote:The people who sneer at guns for self-defense and say it is a super rare event then turn around and say...
The Post notes that "a more reasonable estimate" of self-defense gun uses equals about 100,000 annually, according to the NCVS data.
So.....we should sneer at a mere 100,000 victimization which were averted? Seems reasonable.

How many people are murdered by guns each year? One anti-gun website says 13,000? So....Roughly 8 good uses (conservatively) to every 1 bad use (depending on how you get your numbers). Ok. I"m glad we have actual math and numbers on this sort of thing.
Agreed. How ya doin' Woods?

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:40 am

MPMalloy wrote:
woodsghost wrote:The people who sneer at guns for self-defense and say it is a super rare event then turn around and say...
The Post notes that "a more reasonable estimate" of self-defense gun uses equals about 100,000 annually, according to the NCVS data.
So.....we should sneer at a mere 100,000 victimization which were averted? Seems reasonable.

How many people are murdered by guns each year? One anti-gun website says 13,000? So....Roughly 8 good uses (conservatively) to every 1 bad use (depending on how you get your numbers). Ok. I"m glad we have actual math and numbers on this sort of thing.
Agreed. How ya doin' Woods?
Dealing with a crazy 4.5 month old baby who has decided to be awake for the last 5 hours and decided she needs entertainment. I think we might have got her asleep now but only time will tell if she will stay asleep.

I'm still thinking I need to head out your way, but been busy with the kiddo. But on the flip side I'm going to try and work with some buddies tomorrow and see if we can work out my 12 ga flinch. I get those pretty easily, which sucks. I need to play with how I handle the 12 ga and manage the recoil. And I'll try to figure out what is happening with one of their ham radio antennas. We had super clear communication since November and now over the last month he has got really scratchy, so I wonder if water got into his antenna connection and is causing some corrosion. He has a tough time with ladders so I'll get up there with some gear and weather proofing tape.

....if I'm not a sleep zombie. Kids are cool, but they can be really tough. My daughter is teething on top of everything else, so she has been keeping us rather occupied.

How are you doing?
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Bearcat » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:00 am

"He says many people who carry a gun aren't properly trained to use it in this way" Now that is truth. In my CCW class alone I and two others out of 25 were the only ones who knew how to even handle a gun before the class let alone shoot it. The instructor told me that their is a push not to fail anyone and that came from the NRA. I'm sorry to say, but there is one gem of truth in that article.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:30 am

Ok I am going to push back on the not fail anyone statement. The instructiors are not NRA employees. They can and do set their own policy. If they have that policy it's because they set it.

The other thing is this is training. Since it is training it should not be unusual for somebody with no experience to show up to get training that's why they're there; to get training.

The people who show up for training should not be mocked but rather encouraged. That's a bad habit the gun Community has making fun of noobs. We were all noobs at one point.

Especially now we need to encourage as many people to both get training and understand the issues associated with owning a firearm in the benefits and risks they present.
Last edited by raptor on Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:56 am

raptor wrote:Ok I am going to push back on the not fail anyone statement. The instructiors are not NRA employees. They can and do set their own policy. If they have that policy it's because they set it.

The other thing is this is training. Since it is training it should not be unusual for somebody with no experience to show up to get training that's why they're there to get training.
Yo' dawg... We heard you want to train, so we put some training in yo' training?
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:59 am

raptor wrote:Ok I am going to push back on the not fail anyone statement. The instructiors are not NRA employees. They can and do set their own policy. If they have that policy it's because they set it.

The other thing is this is training. Since it is training it should not be unusual for somebody with no experience to show up to get training that's why they're there to get training.
This is what I was thinking. Looking at a local training facility and their advertising literature, the focus seems to be to get people into "Intro to Pistol" classes or "CCW" classes and lay the foundation. Then there are different skill builder classes and full "Pistol II" and "Pistol III" classes. The language for each course and the ammo/equipment requirements, and even the pictures, reflect who they are targeting each course towards.

And I had the thought "Rome was not built in a day." I am far more skilled now than when I got my first CCW. In fact, there was no shooting component when I got my CCW, just a legal component and background check with the PD. Where I grew up one could not drive a car with a loaded gun with out a CCW, so deer hunters all get their CCWs so they can drive from location to location without unloading their guns.

But I think for a lot of people the CCW is the first step towards more training, and for others, the CCW is the first and last step. They simply don't want more. And is that unreasonable? Yes, but from a risk management standpoint, it is a fair choice. The NPR article talked about how the number of people showing up in hospitals with defensive gunshot wounds is minimal and therefore defensive gun use cannot be that widespread. Well most defensive gun use does not result in anyone getting shot! Most of the time people with a CCW don't carry. Those that carry are more likely to make wise choices because they don't want to use their gun. Those that have a gun and get in a bad spot can usually get out by presenting the weapon. Those that need to shoot may not actually hit anything (due to lighting, training, physical altercation, etc). So the percentage of people who are actually shot in a defensive scenario should be a VERY small number. Which means most people probably won't need to use their weapon in anger and those that do probably won't need to fire it.

But that is not what I advocate. I"m just saying those people are not unreasonable if they don't training past the CCW permit and occasional renewal. Many may not have any intention of carrying. others will never have a reason to draw their weapon. But I prefer a world where people train vigorously, and that is what I try to do within my means.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by boskone » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:17 am

Bearcat wrote:
"He says many people who carry a gun aren't properly trained to use it in this way" Now that is truth. In my CCW class alone I and two others out of 25 were the only ones who knew how to even handle a gun before the class let alone shoot it. The instructor told me that their is a push not to fail anyone and that came from the NRA. I'm sorry to say, but there is one gem of truth in that article.
The problem with anecdata is that it's unreliable. My CHL class was mostly people with a lot of experience shooting; for inexperienced people there was a girl who was there with her BF (and even though not expert, was clearly competent and understood the basics and safety), and a guy from out of state.

The issue with that article is that is seems they found people who said what they wanted and presented it as generally representative, but didn't do any actual work to see if it was correct. As KJ4VOV says: confirmation bias.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:07 pm

KJ4VOV wrote:
raptor wrote:Ok I am going to push back on the not fail anyone statement. The instructiors are not NRA employees. They can and do set their own policy. If they have that policy it's because they set it.

The other thing is this is training. Since it is training it should not be unusual for somebody with no experience to show up to get training that's why they're there; to get training.
Yo' dawg... We heard you want to train, so we put some training in yo' training?
How about inserting a semicolon instead?


My experience with this subject comes from my participation in a local group that encourages self defense and firearm ownership. It offers free training, including free basic instruction, ammo and range time to anyone. Most of the participants have never picked up a firearm in their life and now want one due to the crime problem in my area.

Obviously my results are anecdotal. That said these are people who sought training before purchasing a firearm. In fact may do not have clue what to purchase and seek input on how to make a decision.

The key recurring issue I hear from them is that they have no idea where to get training. The gun stores they go into want to sell them a firearm and CCW training, but mainly the sell them a firearm. Also they report going to a firearms counter is a very confusing experience. The advice they receive does not make sense to them. So couple a hard sell with an opinionated gun store clerk and no real idea about where to turn for guidance and you get people who would be firearm owners but are not.

Some will search the internet and run into the usual sites with predictable results.

Seriously folks firearm owners need to reach out to newbies and help them along.

My $.02.
Last edited by raptor on Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Bearcat » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:20 pm

raptor wrote:Ok I am going to push back on the not fail anyone statement. The instructiors are not NRA employees. They can and do set their own policy. If they have that policy it's because they set it.

The other thing is this is training. Since it is training it should not be unusual for somebody with no experience to show up to get training that's why they're there to get training.

The people who show up for training should not be mocked but rather encouraged. That's a bad habit the gun Community has making fun of noobs. We were all noobs at one point.

Especially now we need to encourage as many people to both get training and understand the issues associated with owning a firearm in the benefits and risks they present.
Regardless of the validity of my course instructors words and personal policy or not, the NRA made it as easy as possible to pass people. The course booklet was written by the NRA and I am willing to bet the tests were devised by the NRA. The written test (in Ohio at least) was a group test, thereby making it 99% impossible to fail. I would love to see the number of applicants who actually get failed. I at no point was making fun of new shooters in my previous post. My point is, I agree with the article that the CCW license by no means demonstrates that an individual is trained to handle a gun in self defense scenario. For instance, I only had to sit and watch an instructor to obtain my Utah license. At no point did I even need to demonstrate reloading, chambering or making the gun safe and it was only 6 hours of course time instead of 12.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:55 pm

It was not my intent to criticise you. I appologise if that post came off as such.

I was and I am pointing out that the instructor runs the course. He/she is free to tighten standards for the class or even not use NRA material.

A textbook publisher does not set the grading curve or policy. It presents information in a text book or similar texting material.

Most basic licensing is just a license to learn. This is true for auto, CDL, pilot and CCW licenses. That also applies even to advanced college degrees.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Bearcat » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:27 pm

raptor wrote:It was not my intent to criticise you. I appologise if that post came off as such.

I was and I am pointing out that the instructor runs the course. He/she is free to tighten standards for the class or even not use NRA material.

A textbook publisher does not set the grading curve or policy. It presents information in a text book or similar texting material.

Most basic licensing is just a license to learn. This is true for auto, CDL, pilot and CCW licenses. That also applies even to advanced college degrees.
I appreciate it Raptor. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I know there are good instructors out there but I also know there are bad ones and I would venture to guess they out number the good ones. From what I remember reading when CCW laws were passed, the CCW tests and training were developed by the NRA in conjunction with whatever government organizations and legislatures passed the CCW laws into existence.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Bearcat » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:18 pm

R. Lee Ermey just died.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Langenator » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:07 am

Bearcat wrote:R. Lee Ermey just died.
"Marines die, that's what we're here for. But the Marine Corps lives forever. And that means YOU live forever." R. Lee Ermey as GySgt Hartman, Full Metal Jacket

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by MacWa77ace » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:45 pm

Bearcat wrote:
raptor wrote:It was not my intent to criticise you. I appologise if that post came off as such.

I was and I am pointing out that the instructor runs the course. He/she is free to tighten standards for the class or even not use NRA material.

A textbook publisher does not set the grading curve or policy. It presents information in a text book or similar texting material.

Most basic licensing is just a license to learn. This is true for auto, CDL, pilot and CCW licenses. That also applies even to advanced college degrees.
I appreciate it Raptor. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I know there are good instructors out there but I also know there are bad ones and I would venture to guess they out number the good ones. From what I remember reading when CCW laws were passed, the CCW tests and training were developed by the NRA in conjunction with whatever government organizations and legislatures passed the CCW laws into existence.
Course curriculums [the NRA's for example] are only guidelines for instructors who are certified instructors. You don't have to use any particular curriculum once you are certified as an instructor. But if you issue an NRA certificate with the NRA logo you should use their material. But basically you just need to be recognized as someone who can issue a certificate of completion. We have a guy at my company who got certified as a forklift and picker trainer so we didn't have to bring in an outside trainer every time someone new needed to drive the lifts. And it didn't matter if the FNG was already certified at their previous job, they have to be re-certified to drive them here.

On the firearms 101 level, its hard to tell a good instructor from a bad one if you don't know the first thing about firearms. But due to the basic nature of the course, its more the student's responsibility to listen and learn in that particular course than the teacher to teach well or poorly. Because they're not teaching much technique, only facts. Do this, don't do that. It is true only an incompetent driving/flight/firearms/diving instructor would pass a student just because they paid their fee, even though they almost killed themselves or demonstrated total stupidity during the testing process.

Funny Story: I couldn't find my Hunter's Certification I acquired in High School when I needed it for my CWL, so I had to take a class. But I didn't need any 'basic' firearms training having been around them all my life, I just needed the certificate. I didn't want the 3 hr course with a written test and then range time, I just wanted a CFL course with a certificate, and to actually learn the CCW rules [which I had already downloaded and read thru a few times], yes the bare minimum. I paid my $75 fee, all they did was lecture me on the concealed carry laws for 45 minutes, and had me demonstrate my proficiency by firing a baretta bobcat into a sand filled tank point blank. It misfired on the first trigger pull so had to pull again. To this day I'm not sure if the misfire was the real test to see who would look down the barrel and pull the trigger again or not. [If you did you failed?] And then after all that... I found my original Hunter's certificate a week later. :roll:
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Stercutus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:02 pm

So Dick's Sporting Goods has taken the wise business path of not selling "tactical rifles" any more and will announced today they will destroy all the ones they have in inventory.

Let's do quick check on how the market appreciates that:

DKS:

Down 2.1% for the day. A year ago today they were at $50.27, close today at 32.15, clearly a company that is going places. I am guessing their investors don't want to go with them.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:15 pm

Stercutus wrote:So Dick's Sporting Goods has taken the wise business path of not selling "tactical rifles" any more and will announced today they will destroy all the ones they have in inventory.

Let's do quick check on how the market appreciates that:

DKS:

Down 2.1% for the day. A year ago today they were at $50.27, close today at 32.15, clearly a company that is going places. I am guessing their investors don't want to go with them.
The marketplace is the ultimate arbiter of smart vs fucking stupid not smart.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Halfapint » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:22 pm

MPMalloy wrote:
Stercutus wrote:So Dick's Sporting Goods has taken the wise business path of not selling "tactical rifles" any more and will announced today they will destroy all the ones they have in inventory.

Let's do quick check on how the market appreciates that:

DKS:

Down 2.1% for the day. A year ago today they were at $50.27, close today at 32.15, clearly a company that is going places. I am guessing their investors don't want to go with them.
The marketplace is the ultimate arbiter of smart vs fucking stupid not smart.
I would look into sporting good stores and see how they are doing. Most aren't doing well. Most brick and mortar stores are down from a year ago. Quick search for Big5 would reveal they are down over the last year as well. Trying to say that the market is dictating this and not competition from things like amazon and others would silly.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by the_alias » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:22 pm

What's the reputation of Henry rifles?

I've always wanted a lever action and their .22lr carbine looks reasonable.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:39 pm

the_alias wrote:What's the reputation of Henry rifles?

I've always wanted a lever action and their .22lr carbine looks reasonable.
I've never heard anything bad about them and I'm seriously looking at one in .45-70
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