A Kel Tec Sub 2000 in 9mm

[raptor]

A few years ago I wanted to buy one of these but had trouble finding them the 9mm Glock Magazine for less than $700 which IMO is a truly stupid price to pay for this firearm. I instead went out and bought an AR-15 pistol (>$600)for the use I intended which is a discrete longish type weapon to keep in a bag.

Anyway, fast forward to this year and I am running across Kel Tec Sub 2000 in 9mm Glock magazines fairly regularly at sub $500. Like this:
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/kel-tec ... 58691.aspx

Now I really do not need one but it keeps drawing attention simply because I had wanted one a while back. I have standardized on the Glock family for my 9mm and thus the 9mm and Glock was the requirement.

Funds are not an issue. However, why buy a $500 firearm when I do not need it and I have filled the niche I wanted to fill already.

So what is my question?

Do you folks consider an AR-15 pistol (with an arm brace) a better solution than a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in 9mm for a discrete "bag gun". The bag goes with me into my car and into my office and is in addition to the a CCW I carry daily. It is for situations where things have gone really bad and not a "whip it" per se.

The kel Tec would be lighter but would have less power (9mm vs 5.56mm). It also would not be as F'ing load or have as large of a muzzle flash as the AR-15 pistol. Still in the unlikely event that I truly need this I wonder if I want to trust my life to a kel tec? That and I think I am simply being distracted by the new shiny rifle and coming up with rationale to buy one. Ohhh Shiny! I already have a safe full of toys like that and really do not need another.

So there you go. What do you think?

[NT2C]

Funds are not an issue. However, why buy a $500 firearm when I do not need it and I have filled the niche I wanted to fill already.

Because you know my birthday is coming up in a couple of months and you know I'm a 9mm fanboy?

[woodsghost]

Well I don't know the barrel length of your 5.56 pistol. To get over and stay over the "2500 fps" threshold for fragmentation for a reasonable distance I feel a 5.56 barrel needs to be over 11 inches. This of course is also dependent on the ammo, and I"m sure you know all that already. But that is one thing to think about.

A 5.56 would have better soft armor penetration for such situations.

"Loud and flashy" are true detriments in my mind. Especially if such a weapon ever had to be used indoors, in a vehicle, at night, or around friendlies.

A Kel-Tec would allow you to carry and swap ammo between carbine and pistol. A real bonus.

Ballistics would be less useful if the 5.56 maintains fragmentation for a reasonable distance. Otherwise, the 9mm would be better.

Less ability to punch through soft armor unless you consider the Liberty Civil Defense ammo. I don't even know what that would clock at in a 16 inch barrel. (and you know the pros & cons of using light/fast ammo).

I"d consider buying a Kel-Tec, running 1-2k rounds through it, and if you are satisfied, then switch.

Just my thoughts.

[raptor]

It has an 7.5 inch barrel. The thing is so loud and the muzzle blast is so big that the combination literally shakes the tin roof at an outdoor shooting range I use.

"Loud and flashy" are true detriments in my mind. Especially if such a weapon ever had to be used indoors, in a vehicle, at night, or around friendlies.

[Stercutus]

As I posted in the other thread I went with the .300BO in a 8.5" barrel. If it were me I'd just swap uppers get a .300BO in that and ditch the 7.5" 5.56 AR barrel. It will be quieter, more powerful, more versatile than either and in platform you are already comfortable with. You can get a full upper on sale for under $300. It is easy to suppress and more useful in that role than 5.56 or 9mm. Proper loading does not give you the big 5.56 fireball.

I see the Kel-tec as an ok $400 gun. the 9mm simply is not as useful as a carbine round. Having a compact size is nice but remember you have to follow all the applicable rifle laws with the Kel-tec as opposed to pistol laws with the AR pistol. This may mean that concealed car or car carry is a no-go or highly restricted. Once you leave your home state things get even more dicey.

[The Twizzler]

I can see a need for one but not two, it's not like you will carry both. I'd ask, are you prepared to sell the AR pistol and buy the Keltec? If the answer is no, then don't get the Keltec because you obviously think it's better for you. Also, you didn't say if the Keltec is gen 1 or 2. The sights are better on the gen 2.

[00dlez]

As I posted in the other thread I went with the .300BO in a 8.5" barrel. If it were me I'd just swap uppers get a .300BO in that and ditch the 7.5" 5.56 AR barrel. It will be quieter, more powerful, more versatile than either and in platform you are already comfortable with. You can get a full upper on sale for under $300. It is easy to suppress and more useful in that role than 5.56 or 9mm. Proper loading does not give you the big 5.56 fireball.

I see the Kel-tec as an ok $400 gun. the 9mm simply is not as useful as a carbine round. Having a compact size is nice but remember you have to follow all the applicable rifle laws with the Kel-tec as opposed to pistol laws with the AR pistol. This may mean that concealed car or car carry is a no-go or highly restricted. Once you leave your home state things get even more dicey.

Don't quote me on this, but I recall something where the ATF determined that, while folded, the kel-tec is not considered "ready to deploy" or whatever jargon they used and can still be transported with relative ease.

I'll see if I can find it and edit.

[Stercutus]

As I posted in the other thread I went with the .300BO in a 8.5" barrel. If it were me I'd just swap uppers get a .300BO in that and ditch the 7.5" 5.56 AR barrel. It will be quieter, more powerful, more versatile than either and in platform you are already comfortable with. You can get a full upper on sale for under $300. It is easy to suppress and more useful in that role than 5.56 or 9mm. Proper loading does not give you the big 5.56 fireball.

I see the Kel-tec as an ok $400 gun. the 9mm simply is not as useful as a carbine round. Having a compact size is nice but remember you have to follow all the applicable rifle laws with the Kel-tec as opposed to pistol laws with the AR pistol. This may mean that concealed car or car carry is a no-go or highly restricted. Once you leave your home state things get even more dicey.

Don't quote me on this, but I recall something where the ATF determined that, while folded, the kel-tec is not considered "ready to deploy" or whatever jargon they used and can still be transported with relative ease.

I'll see if I can find it and edit.

If true, that is great for the ATF. However, the ATF does has nothing to do with laws governing the carry of weapons, all that is controlled at the State and sometimes the local level. Many states heavily regulate the carry of long guns, whereas most have provisions for the carry of pistols with or without a permit.

[00dlez]

Based on my google searches, I'm starting to think it was a youtube video that mentioned it... perhaps making the claim more dubious... perhaps not. (People can't lie on the internet, afterall)

Through my reading, though, I'm starting think that they might have been saying something more along the lines of a folded kel-tec with a magazine inserted is not considered loaded, since it is not operable? The search continues.

[woodsghost]

It has an 7.5 inch barrel. The thing is so loud and the muzzle blast is so big that the combination literally shakes the tin roof at an outdoor shooting range I use.

"Loud and flashy" are true detriments in my mind. Especially if such a weapon ever had to be used indoors, in a vehicle, at night, or around friendlies.

Your choice. I would move to a different upper or a different system. At least a longer barrel. But soft points would probably still be effective in a 7.5 inch barrel.

That much blast would be too much for me.

[RonnyRonin]

To get over and stay over the "2500 fps" threshold for fragmentation for a reasonable distance I feel a 5.56 barrel needs to be over 11 inches. This of course is also dependent on the ammo, and I"m sure you know all that already. But that is one thing to think about.

I'm with woodsghost, >10.5" barrel AR wins, since it is a 7.5" barrel, my vote is keltec.
I had my heart set on a 11.5" ar pistol for a long time as my perfect BO/travel/lightweight PDWish gun, I found out I can actually build a lighter 14.5" gun for less money so I decided to skip the AR pistol thing. Now I am building an armbraced glock PDW that is even lighter and I can carry more ammo, and after playing with the concept I feel pretty good about the pros outweighing the cons on a light, compact 9mm.

oh, and I owned an 7.5" AR pistol briefly, for all its other sins it was loud and flashy as hell. couldn't sell it fast enough.

[flybynight]

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-8-5- ... upper.html

Leaves you about a $150 for ammo and you still have it in 5.56 if you need it

[flybynight]

Of course since funds are not an issue ( especially when it's your funds we're talking about )

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/compone ... l?Itemid=0

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/compone ... l?Itemid=0


http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9 ... 46046.html


http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/compone ... l?Itemid=0

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/compone ... l?Itemid=0


plus the ar pistol you have and the shiny kel tec will give you Le firearm du jour
Don't worry Raptor. We'll separate you from that dirty money. Your welcome

[raptor]

I knew you guys would have some good advice. I need to think about this some more.

[Stercutus]

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-8-5- ... upper.html

Leaves you about a $150 for ammo and you still have it in 5.56 if you need it

Exactly. You can swap bolts, mags and CH. Takes about 1 minute.

[raptor]

you have to follow all the applicable rifle laws with the Kel-tec as opposed to pistol laws with the AR pistol. This may mean that concealed car or car carry is a no-go or highly restricted. Once you leave your home state things get even more dicey.

Thanks I had forgotten about this aspect entirely. In LA my permit allows the concealed carry of only a handgun not a rifle. That said open carry is legal as is transport in a bag.

I need to check the rules on rifle carry in MS, AL, FL, & TX

To get over and stay over the "2500 fps" threshold for fragmentation for a reasonable distance I feel a 5.56 barrel needs to be over 11 inches. This of course is also dependent on the ammo, and I"m sure you know all that already. But that is one thing to think about.

Thanks I appreciate the good data.

Also, you didn't say if the Keltec is gen 1 or 2. The sights are better on the gen 2.

It is a Gen 2 and I agree the sights are better on the Mod 2.

[gunsandrockets]

Discreet bag carry?

I think the Sub-2000 is better for the job, even though the AR pistol is technically a better firearm

1) The Sub is more discreet because it's lighter and smaller, and it's ammunition is lighter and smaller

2) The Sub has greater practical accuracy, because it is easier to handle. Can you imagine having to shoot the AR pistol indoors, without any hearing protection? Or in a dark environment? Or one-handed?

3) In the kind of scenario you imagine employing your bag gun, which are you more likely to opportunistically scrounge? an AR magazine with 5.56mm ammunition or a 9mm Glock magazine with ammunition? True enough AR's are everywhere, but 9mm Glocks seem even more common. Not just among civilians but particularly among uniformed law enforcement.

[Stercutus]

3) In the kind of scenario you imagine employing your bag gun, which are you more likely to opportunistically scrounge? an AR magazine with 5.56mm ammunition or a 9mm Glock magazine with ammunition? True enough AR's are everywhere, but 9mm Glocks seem even more common. Not just among civilians but particularly among uniformed law enforcement.

Oh c'mon this is silly. Any scenario that involves scrounging ammo off of cops goes straight in to fantasy land.

2) The Sub has greater practical accuracy, because it is easier to handle. Can you imagine having to shoot the AR pistol indoors, without any hearing protection? Or in a dark environment? Or one-handed?

I don't see how a 300BO AR is going to be any harder to shoot in the dark than a S2K. Both will require hearing protection, or a can which is easier to set up on the AR. The S2K is lighter (but longer) and maybe a little easier to handle with less recoil but you trade off stopping power, ammo capacity, ergonomics etc.

[Zimmy]

I just bought a Gen 2 Sub2000 in 9mm with 3 hicap glock branded mags and one Keltec branded mag for $375. Market demand aside, I'm happy with the deal but would have passed on it for $400.

I love PCCs and cut my teeth on M1/M2 carbines, Sterlings, Stens, and MP38/40s. (Dad had cool friends). I hope the Sub2000 doesn't disappoint me.

If it does, I'll buy another of those Sterlings they are selling now in semi only. I love that blaster but I have the one with the full length barrel shroud and its somewhat cumbersome so I want the half length shroud model someday.

[Stercutus]

Here is a complete upper with BCG/ CH for under $300

http://www.primaryarms.com/PABU10.5-300 ... tpagedeals

[raptor]

2) The Sub has greater practical accuracy, because it is easier to handle. Can you imagine having to shoot the AR pistol indoors, without any hearing protection? Or in a dark environment? Or one-handed?

I practice with the AR pistol and can hit consistently within the relevant range/distance I would expect to use it. But yes I am doing this with hearing protection in place and outdoors. It has a wicked muzzle flash and the report easily pegs a decibel meter.

3) In the kind of scenario you imagine employing your bag gun, which are you more likely to opportunistically scrounge? an AR magazine with 5.56mm ammunition or a 9mm Glock magazine with ammunition? True enough AR's are everywhere, but 9mm Glocks seem even more common. Not just among civilians but particularly among uniformed law enforcement.

I really do not see me needing to scrounge ammo. I also see zero chance of the NOPD lending me a magazine (or even getting out of their car until everything is over) if such a need arises.

I do see this (if it is employed) being used indoors.

After all of this I need to think about my current set up. I am actually thinking about a suppressor since the barrel is already threaded for one and I wanted an excuse to get one.

Thanks everyone.

[BullOnParade]

Here's some thoughts:

FYI - I bought the 9mm/Glock/S2K years ago, it filled a few small niche requirements. I wouldn't repeat that purchase today.

A friend of mine is on good terms with a local importer/distributer. That friend started asking his contact about the S2K after seeing mine, and he was shown a whole pile of S2Ks with broken receivers. I don't know any specifics beyond that, but it was enough to scare my friend off the purchase of his own. Were those people reloading 9mm? Not likely. +P/High velocity? More likely. Enough to cause me concern, as I try to stock high end/tactical ammo.

The cocking handle is shit. As it's designed, a right handed shooter would need to break shooting grip to lock the cocking mechanism open (does not hold open on last round). I modified mine on a milling machine in about 30 minutes, but not everyone has access to that.

The ... buffer tube(?) Is cold on your cheek in winter months. I built a wood tube to cover the steel, but it broke last year and I've never bothered to make another.

The length of pull is very short. Even with the Keltec stock extender, it's about the minimum comfort level for myself.

[olbaid_dratsab]

Just picked up a Gen2 a few weeks ago, new for $410. The gun, like all KT stuff, sucks...awesome concept/horrible execution.

the 400-500 price is baseline. Look to adding a 100 dollar after market front sight, atleast. I've added the Red Lion front sight, an aluminum trigger and after market rear sight. No matter what combination I still can't get enough windage adjustment to hit POA/POI at even 15 yards. I ran out of windage with both front sights. Now I'm in the process of shaving down the rear sight and shimming it just to get some adjustment out of it. KT really needs to regulate the angle of their barrels in relation to the sights. And c'mon, screw on?

With that being said, I like the gun. It folds in half, and it simply shoots reliably. Mine has a unique SN too that makes me giggle. I haven't given up on it yet, but in retrospect, I wouldn't have bought it. KT sucks, and the fact that they conceptualize these awesome designs just to fuck em' up, makes KT suck even more.

[2now]

Legally the rifle / handgun difference can cut both ways. The federal FOPA would let you carry a long gun [but not a handgun] unloaded in a locked case in any state. If you thought you might find your self in a state that you do not have a CCW in a legal rifle might be better than a questionably legal handgun.

That said I am still struggling over the braced pistol/ folding rifle question myself.

I agree the 'scrounging ammo' scenario is far down on my list of concerns. But has anyone ever here ever used a .22LR adapter with one of these pistols? If you thought you might run out of ammo, it had better be because you were hunting with it as you traveled. That could make the .22LR a fun idea to test.

Raptor, as you would carry it, with loaded mags, what is the weight difference?
Would you want to carry more rounds of 9mm?