Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:23 pm

woodsghost wrote:This is a really good video on steel armor and 5.56 penetration.

TL:DW...

XM193 (55gr at 5.56 pressure) out of a 22 inch barrel (3200+fps) will not only penetrate AR500 steel, it will be very lethal on the other side.

M855 Green Tip (62gr, 5.56 pressure) does not penetrate AR500 armor, even when shot out of a 22 inch barrel.

Really neat.

Thanks for posting. I need to rethink how I think about ammo.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:35 pm

Been a lazy day today, just messin' around with a couple of gunz. Got an AMS scout mount and cut handguard for the old M1A:



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Found an old 10" Midwest handguard I forgot I had. Liked it better than the factory one that came on the Radical pistol, so swapped them out:



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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:41 pm

I took the G19 to the range. Mostly in the 9-ring & to the left. Same thing with the G26. Tomorrow I take the KG9. I'm also breaking in new mags.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:47 pm

MPMalloy wrote:
Thanks for posting. I need to rethink how I think about ammo.
Watching armor stuff has hugely changed how I look at ammo.

For what it is worth, Green Tip is supposed to be able to punch through UHMWPE armor pretty well if it has enough velocity.



So nothing is magic and always perfect. But I expect to face more people with steel armor than wearing UHMWPE armor. For 5.56, I really like the M193, but I go 7.62x39, which is defeated by most armors rather easily :( Even if it does let me shoot zombies hiding behind brick walls.


EDIT:

Referring to my previous post; AR500 is a broad term. Stuff that is sold as "III+" is supposed to be able to resist M193. It has been known for a while that true M193 could punch through standard Lvl III steel plates. A lot of tests show which companies really do stop M193. Also, M193 only penetrates as long as it is above a certain velocity (I don't know what that is). So distance is your friend.
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by Halfapint » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:20 pm

If I'm not mistaken this is just mounted on a picatinny rail correct? I broke the bolt, then lost the little arm thingy that connects it to my rail. So in theory I should be able to buy a raised picatinny rail and remount this?

edit: Sorry question wasn't really clear. I'm talking about the riser the optic is mounted on.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by 91Eunozs » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:27 pm

Halfapint wrote:If I'm not mistaken this is just mounted on a picatinny rail correct? I broke the bolt, then lost the little arm thingy that connects it to my rail. So in theory I should be able to buy a raised picatinny rail and remount this?

edit: Sorry question wasn't really clear. I'm talking about the riser the optic is mounted on.

Image
Sounds like an opportunity for a better/lighter mount.
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:39 pm

Halfapint wrote:If I'm not mistaken this is just mounted on a picatinny rail correct? I broke the bolt, then lost the little arm thingy that connects it to my rail. So in theory I should be able to buy a raised picatinny rail and remount this?

edit: Sorry question wasn't really clear. I'm talking about the riser the optic is mounted on.

Image
Pretty much, Halfapint. It's just a standard picatinny rail mount.

I've got the same little Bushnell red dot on my AK.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by Halfapint » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:34 pm

Thanks, I thought so I'm going to get some raised see through mount. I actually just found it from when I moved. For being $50 bucks or whatever they are great little optics. Would still like a little better one though.
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by Dogan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:29 pm

woodsghost wrote: For what it is worth, Green Tip is supposed to be able to punch through UHMWPE armor pretty well if it has enough velocity.
Also, hasn't UHMWPE been phased out by all but the sketchiest of dealers/manufacturers due to how quickly it breaks down under heat and humidity (as in you wear it and it becomes less effective in short order)?
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:07 am

Dogan wrote:
woodsghost wrote: For what it is worth, Green Tip is supposed to be able to punch through UHMWPE armor pretty well if it has enough velocity.
Also, hasn't UHMWPE been phased out by all but the sketchiest of dealers/manufacturers due to how quickly it breaks down under heat and humidity (as in you wear it and it becomes less effective in short order)?
Information here:

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95949
Avoid Spectrashield, Spectra woven, or Dyneema: This material is based on polyethylene, the same stuff that milk jugs are made of. The armor version is referred to as Ultra High Molecular Weight Poly-Ethylene (UHMWPE). In situations where it gets hot (and most car trunks in the summer can get HOT), it will denature, reverting back to simple milk jug plastic. Armoring FAIL. I used to be a fan of this stuff until I read some great info by Kevin "Mad Dog" Mclung and Doctor Roberts ("DocGKR"), two names that you should look up and listen to. They did some eye opening tests (especially Mad Dog) on the dangers of Spectra. If the material goes over 180 F, it becomes a danger to its wearer.
Spectra- Wait, didn't I just say don't use this? Yes, yes I did. I am including this here for information purposes, and also because it is a gray area. Spectra in hard armor is not as HUGE a danger as soft armor (this from DocGKR) because of the amount of heat required to get it isothermic (the same temp throughout). So, if you have Spectra hardplates, there you go. Standalone Spectra plates can stop rifle rounds with enough layers. It stops rounds via frictive braking (think of bullet brake). However, be advised there are some rounds that will penetrate UHMWPE plates, such as M855 green tip. So again, do your homework. AN EXAMPLE IS FOUND HERE:

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-32839.html

GREEN TIP M855 IS NOT IN THE SPEC FOR LEVEL III, SO DON'T ASSUME.

So in short, I honestly don't know if I'd use UHMWPE plates if I was in Iraq. Based on the above I won't use woven UHMWPE, but UHMWPE plates seems to be good in most environments which don't get obscenely hot.
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by 91Eunozs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:18 pm

Halfapint wrote:Thanks, I thought so I'm going to get some raised see through mount. I actually just found it from when I moved. For being $50 bucks or whatever they are great little optics. Would still like a little better one though.
I've posted this before, but I truly think the Primary Arms advanced micro dot is a hell of an optic for the $$... I know it's probably some version of a Holosun or some other cheap Chinese optic...maybe with better quality control...but I've been impressed so far.

I obviously prefer Aimpoint after a (previous) lifetime of having some version of one on my M4 (that spent most of the time in the armory :? ), but the PA advanced micro dot on my daughter's rifle is holding up very well after more than a year, albeit almost all range time. Another on one of the ranch guns seems to doing great too with no loss of zero that I can discern after a couple months of bouncing around in the back of an ATV and being carried through brush, etc. Not abused or really stress tested by any means, but certainly not babied either.
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by Halfapint » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:07 pm

91Eunozs wrote:
Halfapint wrote:Thanks, I thought so I'm going to get some raised see through mount. I actually just found it from when I moved. For being $50 bucks or whatever they are great little optics. Would still like a little better one though.
I've posted this before, but I truly think the Primary Arms advanced micro dot is a hell of an optic for the $$... I know it's probably some version of a Holosun or some other cheap Chinese optic...maybe with better quality control...but I've been impressed so far.

I obviously prefer Aimpoint after a (previous) lifetime of having some version of one on my M4 (that spent most of the time in the armory :? ), but the PA advanced micro dot on my daughter's rifle is holding up very well after more than a year, albeit almost all range time. Another on one of the ranch guns seems to doing great too with no loss of zero that I can discern after a couple months of bouncing around in the back of an ATV and being carried through brush, etc. Not abused or really stress tested by any means, but certainly not babied either.
I actually had one in my shopping cart. For a few days while I mulled it over. I went shooting the other day and was digging through to find a couple of things and that optic. I honestly had forgotten about it until I saw it. So instead if spending more money might as well use what I've got.

However apparently I'm building another AR because I found a cheap upper that's gotten great reviews so I'll be looking for another optic shortly think this one. Think I'm going to put a scope on this one.people weren't joking when they said ARs are like tattoos, you can't have just one!
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by Stercutus » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:56 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Dogan wrote:
woodsghost wrote: For what it is worth, Green Tip is supposed to be able to punch through UHMWPE armor pretty well if it has enough velocity.
Also, hasn't UHMWPE been phased out by all but the sketchiest of dealers/manufacturers due to how quickly it breaks down under heat and humidity (as in you wear it and it becomes less effective in short order)?
Information here:

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95949
Avoid Spectrashield, Spectra woven, or Dyneema: This material is based on polyethylene, the same stuff that milk jugs are made of. The armor version is referred to as Ultra High Molecular Weight Poly-Ethylene (UHMWPE). In situations where it gets hot (and most car trunks in the summer can get HOT), it will denature, reverting back to simple milk jug plastic. Armoring FAIL. I used to be a fan of this stuff until I read some great info by Kevin "Mad Dog" Mclung and Doctor Roberts ("DocGKR"), two names that you should look up and listen to. They did some eye opening tests (especially Mad Dog) on the dangers of Spectra. If the material goes over 180 F, it becomes a danger to its wearer.
Spectra- Wait, didn't I just say don't use this? Yes, yes I did. I am including this here for information purposes, and also because it is a gray area. Spectra in hard armor is not as HUGE a danger as soft armor (this from DocGKR) because of the amount of heat required to get it isothermic (the same temp throughout). So, if you have Spectra hardplates, there you go. Standalone Spectra plates can stop rifle rounds with enough layers. It stops rounds via frictive braking (think of bullet brake). However, be advised there are some rounds that will penetrate UHMWPE plates, such as M855 green tip. So again, do your homework. AN EXAMPLE IS FOUND HERE:

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-32839.html

GREEN TIP M855 IS NOT IN THE SPEC FOR LEVEL III, SO DON'T ASSUME.

So in short, I honestly don't know if I'd use UHMWPE plates if I was in Iraq. Based on the above I won't use woven UHMWPE, but UHMWPE plates seems to be good in most environments which don't get obscenely hot.
Dyneema = Spectra.

Dyneema plates are not environmentally sensitive like Spectra due to the formation of long chains. Several European Armies use Dyneema plates because it is lighter and gives more mobility. A valid criticsm is that some soft woven Dyneema armor will not pass FBI (not NIJ) contact tests. This is due the fibers melting from the hot gas and powder being expelled from the barrel. If it is layered with heat resistant material like Kevlar or Twaron then it will work passably (although I would not want to be shot at contact distances with any kind of gun).

For some reading on Dyneema:

http://www.virginia.edu/ms/research/wad ... staphd.pdf

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol ... armor.aspx
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by teotwaki » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:12 pm

Spent a day at the range yesterday and one of the guys in my group had an interesting FTF. He was running a SigSauer brand of AR-15 and using OEM 10 round mags.

He showed me his rifle and it had the following signs:

ejection port open
10 rounds in the mag
no round in the chamber
bolt held back
mag would not release

Turns out that whoever had loaded the mag into the rifle had slammed it in way too hard, jamming it high into the mag well. Part of the mag release mechanism was holding the bolt back. We had to pry the mag out and clear out the broken piece. The plastic of the mag seemed awfully thin. I imagine it could happen but I've not seen an old school aluminum mag jammed in so badly. Hopefully PMAGs can't be forced in as far as the SigSauer mag but there is a lot of talent out there for screwing up perfectly good gear. :mrgreen:
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:27 pm

Don't AR Pmags have a little protrusion on them that prevents jamming the mag in a rifle ?

I know my Glock factory mags have a little bump on one side that prevent over-inserting if I use them in a compact model (both my Glocks are full size .45s).

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by MacWa77ace » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:21 pm

teotwaki wrote:
Turns out that whoever had loaded the mag into the rifle had slammed it in way too hard, jamming it high into the mag well. Part of the mag release mechanism was holding the bolt back. [...] :mrgreen:
I hate them range Gremlins.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:58 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
teotwaki wrote:
Turns out that whoever had loaded the mag into the rifle had slammed it in way too hard, jamming it high into the mag well. Part of the mag release mechanism was holding the bolt back. [...] :mrgreen:
I hate them range Gremlins.

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Anyone else notice the hammer on the pipe smoking gremlin's gun goes back to full cock after he shoots the beanie wearing one ? :lol:

I know it's a .gif, but the same thing happens in the actual movie scene.

Also, damn those range gremlins.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:19 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
MacWa77ace wrote:
teotwaki wrote:
Turns out that whoever had loaded the mag into the rifle had slammed it in way too hard, jamming it high into the mag well. Part of the mag release mechanism was holding the bolt back. [...] :mrgreen:
I hate them range Gremlins.

Image
Anyone else notice the hammer on the pipe smoking gremlin's gun goes back to full cock after he shoots the beanie wearing one ? :lol:

I know it's a .gif, but the same thing happens in the actual movie scene.

Also, damn those range gremlins.
I saw that. Didn't know what to make of it.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:05 pm

I'm thinking prop gun with a busted part or someone on the editing team missed it in post production.

Either way, it's just a small detail not many folks will notice. I only noticed it because I was trying to figure out what kind of gun the gremlin was using.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:02 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:I'm thinking prop gun with a busted part or someone on the editing team missed it in post production.

Either way, it's just a small detail not many folks will notice. I only noticed it because I was trying to figure out what kind of gun the gremlin was using.
Reminds me of a scene in HBO's Westworld, when Hector and his gang ride into town to steal the safe out of the bar/brothel. Hector starts the bloodbath by shooting a deputy. After the deputy hits the ground, Hector stands over him and shoots him a second time with his lever-action rifle.....and it looks like the fired case automatically ejects from the rifle, before he works the lever...



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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by teotwaki » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:21 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:Don't AR Pmags have a little protrusion on them that prevents jamming the mag in a rifle ?

I know my Glock factory mags have a little bump on one side that prevent over-inserting if I use them in a compact model (both my Glocks are full size .45s).
Pmag calls it a "over travel insertion stop" :mrgreen:

On these SigSauer 10 round mags the ridge on the outside of the mag body was far enough down to allow the mag to go too far up.
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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:50 pm

teotwaki wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:Don't AR Pmags have a little protrusion on them that prevents jamming the mag in a rifle ?

I know my Glock factory mags have a little bump on one side that prevent over-inserting if I use them in a compact model (both my Glocks are full size .45s).
Pmag calls it a "over travel insertion stop" :mrgreen:

On these SigSauer 10 round mags the ridge on the outside of the mag body was far enough down to allow the mag to go too far up.
That's odd. You'd think a shorter mag would have the little tab or ridge or whatever a little further up to prevent that, right ?

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:34 pm

I finally made it to the range with the KG9. I will go back tomorrow to adjust the optic, & I think that I will have enough for my report.

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Re: Firearms Chat 4: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:35 pm

Back from the range. I am going to the range again tomorrow (when you retire, you gotta stay active).

For those who use a magnifier, what is working for you? I'm going to need one, & I don't have much experience with optics. I am using a Vortex Spitfire AR prism scope. Maybe I should use something that has magnification built in instead of having to mount two separate things?

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