Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness ensues

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Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness ensues

Post by chills1994 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:32 pm

I finally made it to the range yesterday. I had splurged the night before by buying one ammo can of XM855 and one ammo can of XM193.

I used Black Hills 55 grainers as my control:
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt11 ... pks0lh.jpg

I was pleased with that group. :clap:

Then I shot 10 rounds of XM855:
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt11 ... dq3n1v.jpg

I was aiming at the intersection of the two white lines, and trying to keep the amount of blue the same around the crosshairs. Honest... I was...dead center. I wasn't real happy with those results.

Then I tried 10 shots with XM193:
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt11 ... awgd7q.jpg

And then I tried my reloaded/handloaded ammo, Montana Gold 55 grainers...which the few I have tried jave bullet runout or concentricity issues (or at least the ones I sampled):
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt11 ... ivaduo.jpg

If you're thinking of buying some Federal XM855 or Federal XM193 and you're looking for blasting/plinking ammo, those two will work.

If you are looking for more accuracy, then go buy something else. The XM ammo that I have seen so far is lacking in that regard.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by Dabster » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:04 pm

It may be me or my network but I cannot get the pictures. Anyone else?
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by majorrath » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:37 pm

I got them initially but then got errors.
How big are the blue squares? Dead center is always nice but they all look like kills to me! Not bad shooting.

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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by Halfapint » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:32 pm

Fascinating Chills! I really should get to the real range not just the local "shoot'n hole" I have some federal 855 and 193. Also have some handloads that I should see what I get. Only problem I have is no magnifying optics on the AR.

Think I have a buddy with a 223 bolt gun, may have to try it out and see if I can replicate. Or ya know, get a scope on the AR.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by gunsandrockets » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:17 am

Dabster wrote:It may be me or my network but I cannot get the pictures. Anyone else?
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by raptor » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:34 am

Interesting. Great post. It the old adage is true; that not all ammo is the same.

I am curious what is the twist rate in the barrel on your rifle.

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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:05 am

This is just a test post to see if the pics are small enough to post.


FAKE EDIT: nope, pics still too big.

Dang forum software!

I think it is a 1 full twist in 9 inches (1:9), but when I get home, I will have to take a look again.

The barrel length is 20 inches. It is a heavier or thicker profiled barrel, in stainless.6 It has a Miculek comp screwed onto the end.

Yes during some of the shooting strings the barrel's outside got hot. I would grab onto it with my bare hand, and hold onto it for a few seconds.

Since I was at the range all by myself, I could walk back and forth to my targets at the 100 yard distance, without interrupting anyone else's shooting. That gave the barrel time to cool off.

Scrounging up my empty brass off the ground also gave the barrel a chance to cool.

Then I would shoot another 7 to 10 rounds.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:17 am

The blue squares are post it notes that are 3 inches by 3 inches square.

I try to plant the crosshairs right on the intersection of where the 2 white lines meet. Then make sure that there are equal amounts of blue all around all 4 "corners" of the crosshairs.

I picked up a paint stirring stick from Home Depot and traced around that in order to form the white lines.

The paint stick is just a little over 1 inch wide.

One MOA at 100 yards is 1.04 inches.

That's close enough.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by raptor » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:10 am

chills1994 wrote:This is just a test post to see if the pics are small enough to post.


FAKE EDIT: nope, pics still too big.

Dang forum software!

I think it is a 1 full twist in 9 inches (1:9), but when I get home, I will have to take a look again.

The barrel length is 20 inches. It is a heavier or thicker profiled barrel, in stainless.6 It has a Miculek comp screwed onto the end.

Yes during some of the shooting strings the barrel's outside got hot. I would grab onto it with my bare hand, and hold onto it for a few seconds.

Since I was at the range all by myself, I could walk back and forth to my targets at the 100 yard distance, without interrupting anyone else's shooting. That gave the barrel time to cool off.

Scrounging up my empty brass off the ground also gave the barrel a chance to cool.

Then I would shoot another 7 to 10 rounds.
Never mind you clearly know where I am going with the question and the hot barrel. That does not sound like the issue. Sorry but that is the first thing I think of when my first set of shots group well and others do not.

All I can figure is that not all production lots are equal.

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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:55 am

Doing a little more research...I mean googling...

M855 and M193 are meant to be just 3 to 4 MOA ammo.

In my case, the XM193 shot better than the XM855.

If you were to take a weekend carbine class, I would think that XM855 would be the most appropriate ammo for that.

Save the good stuff for another time.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:03 am

It would be interesting to take one of those infrared/laser temperature guns to the range. Then get a temperature reading of the barrel before and after a 5 shot string and then after a 10 shot string.

I would say my barrel got into the 130*F, in between the gas block and the muzzle.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by raptor » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:44 pm

chills1994 wrote:Doing a little more research...I mean googling...

M855 and M193 are meant to be just 3 to 4 MOA ammo.

In my case, the XM193 shot better than the XM855.
I am not doubting you but I have not seen that before? Could you please post a link(s) to a source?

That seems rather dismal. I can understand why bulk distribution of match grade quality ammo is silly but it also seems like that standard is a bit slack.

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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:19 pm

Scroll down here:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... racy-test/

That guy has a table he created.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:23 pm

And here is the Box of Truth with group #4 being XM193:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational ... -accuracy/
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by minengr » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:46 pm

As someone that works at a medium caliber ammunition plant, I'm not terribly surprised by the results. While I am sure there are accuracy standards required by government contract, I can't find them in my links. I did find some velocity and pressure requirements, but that isn't quite the same. See link
http://mil-spec.tpub.com/MIL-P/MIL-P-39 ... J00006.htm

I do not know if those are the current standards, but you can see a +/- spread of 150 fps is allowable. If you were to chrono your handloads I'm betting the spread would be significantly smaller. Come to your own conclusions.

I'm assuming the major focus is that every round is assembled to spec (crimped primer, sealed primer, OAL, packaged correctly, and no damage) and that it goes bang every time. The Marines fire 70million rounds/yr alone. With that kind of volume, pinpoint accuracy isn't a priority.

Not all ammo is the same. Mass produced 5.56 isn't the same as handloads where you're measuring powder to the .1 gr. Lake City (or other .gov contract) brass isn't going to be consistent weight wise either. A few years back I purchased some once-fired .223 Lapua brass that was, I'm assuming, a special run for Dakota Arms. That stuff is stupid consistent. Of 800 pieces 95% weighed within .4 gr. I have several lots of 100 that weigh the same to the .1gr. You are not going to find that with Lake City.

It is hotly debated that weight sorting brass and bullets isn't necessary for accurate ammo. YMMV. That may be correct, but, some of the best groups I've shot were using the previously mentioned Lapua brass sorted by weight, topped with 50gr vmax's (sorted), and H335 hand trickled to withing .1gr. Again YMMV.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:10 pm

Once I get this concentricty issue figured out or ironed out with my handloads, my next move is to do some Optimum Charge Weight (OCW) tests (aka "a ladder test").

On another forum, I had posted a question about sorting brass cases by weight.

I did some googling, and found a blog site where a guy used one of those plastic grids for flourescent light fixtures to segregate his Lake City brass. Soooo....my plastic grid is still bouncing around in the backseat of my Mustang. :lol:

To me at least, it makes sense. If you resize the brass such that the external dimensions are the same from case to case, then any weight differences must be due to internal case dimensions, most likely. And if there are internal differences....volume differences of the case, then naturally it makes sense that there should be velocity differences. Really wide variations in velocity would...errr...should mean larger groups.

Just for grins and giggles, I will have to weigh some of the XM193 and XM855 ammo I bought.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by minengr » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:00 am

chills1994 wrote:To me at least, it makes sense. If you resize the brass such that the external dimensions are the same from case to case, then any weight differences must be due to internal case dimensions, most likely. And if there are internal differences....volume differences of the case, then naturally it makes sense that there should be velocity differences. Really wide variations in velocity would...errr...should mean larger groups.
Throw in the mass production and one can understand how the velocity variance will affect accuracy.

If said it before, but little things add up. I know this isn't a "ultimate" accuracy thread, but let me give a couple examples. I've got several .223's. Bolt guns and AR's from stock factory (almost) to full blown custom. My Win 70 HB (that I had punched to .223 AI) is basically stock. But I did have the barrel pulled, rechambered, trigger job, and throated better. I've also bedded it into the laminate factory stock. My hand loads that kiss the lands now shoot noticeably better. Not a lot, but you can see a difference. However, it's not nearly as accurate as my custom .223.

Now some would say yes, but that is a bolt gun. Granted, but AR's can be stupid accurate. I've got a WOA custom upper in .17 Remington that is a lazer. I know the pictures are a bit dated but you get the idea. Yes, they are only three shot groups but it has never shot that well with the little factory ammo I've used. Those are 25gr Berger's at about 3800fps IIRC. Every little bit helps.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:07 am

I didn't get a chance to weigh any of the XM ammo last night, but I did "spin" a couple in my concentricity gauge.

I can't remember which was which, but one of the XM's had about 8 thousandths in bullet runout. When you can see the very pointy tip of the bullet move....err...wobble... as it spins, yep, that's bad. :shock:

The other XM ammo had like maybe 3 thou in runout at the bullet.

So imagine a nice tight spiral thrown football vs. a wounded duck of a pass.

If you were to do a google image search for gyroscopic precession, you should see a pictoral representation of what I am talking about.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by jor-el » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:43 am

https://www.facebook.com/USAMU1956?fref=nf

Believe Arfcom has numerous articles about M193 and M855 and the further issues of adding an "X" prefix.

The FMJ bullets used for mass production simply aren't "match" grade and can vary by weight, jacket thickness, cannelure position and depth, core position that's bad enough with just lead. Add in the penetrator as a second core. The killer is variations in the boat tail.

Realize also military ammo has sealant both at the primer and at the case mouth, something most handloaders don't as that leaves some sealant on the bullets themselves. Military ammo is meant to go bang in all weather, including wet.

The "X" prefix on the ammo says lot testing was done and the lot was rejected. Probably for accuracy.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by jor-el » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:55 am

https://www.facebook.com/USAMU1956/phot ... =1&theater

Pretty sure FMJ construction precludes match shooting especially the blaster/plinker grades. Believe AMU likes closed flat base or boat tail bullets for their better precision.

Nearly all the big ammo makers offer a "match" grade .223 round and all of those are a variant of a HPBT bullet.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by Mad Mike » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:19 am

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but that's why I never buy a full can until I have tried it out with smaller quantities. Too many unpleasant surprises over the years. :gonk:

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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by woodsghost » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:05 am

Gee wiz. I've never had these problems with any of my Russian, Ukrainian, or Romanian made ammo.....


:mrgreen:

I guess Wolf, TulAmmo, Green Tiger, and the Soviet Union are just better manufacturers. :lol:
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by chills1994 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:37 pm

Mad Mike wrote:I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but that's why I never buy a full can until I have tried it out with smaller quantities. Too many unpleasant surprises over the years. :gonk:
Nope...not rude...

My plan B was to always save the brass and reload/handload with it.

I found out my local brass processor got out of the business.
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Re: Pics of XM855 and XM193 groups at 100 yards...sadness en

Post by Blasphemous » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:51 am

Practice with what you buy.
If I buy something in bulk (which I do most of the time), I have my rifle doped for that ammo. Generally, the settings will be good for the entire run, but variances may occur. As long as you are doing everything right as a shooter, you can dial in your shot group. Try not to vary your ammunition type too much and keep your load outs with the same type of ammunition as much as possible. I have shot a lot of the XMxxx ammo and regular "civilian" ammo, I don't really care for any one over the other. However, I have two AR's and one is doped for XM ammo and the other for (mostly) Wolf.
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