Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

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For Home Defense would you use?

A high capacity pump shotgun (Mossberg 590, Remington 870)
16
36%
Or a high capacity pistol (Glock, S&W M&P, XD, etc.)
28
64%
 
Total votes: 44

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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by RonnyRonin » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:44 pm

Hollis wrote: On your comment about a gun bad at killing people. Sometime back there was some discussion about this kind of wording. If you were in a gun friendly area/DA and you where involve in a home defense situation where you killed someone. One record in our modern social media world you made the statement, "I wanted a gun that was good at killing people." The DA could cost you a lot of money.
even if you load your shotgun with glitter and butterflies; if you point it at someone and pull the trigger it's lethal force in the eyes of the law. I don't think the courts let you off easy because you picked a "kinder, gentler" boomstick.
Hollis wrote: BTW, Home defense is about defending one's home. Not killing people and not loosing everything you own in a civil law suit.
correct, but if the 1001 things you did to avoid using a gun fall through and you have a gun out, isn't that situation dire enough that you really really really want to "stop the threat" (to use the sterile term) not just perforate, anger, or even grievously wound the threat? "Barely adequate" is not a good criteria to choose a weapon.
A "how to avoid using your gun in home defense" thread would be good, but unfortunately it probably would not get the traffic of this one.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Hollis » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:33 pm

RonnyRonin wrote:
Hollis wrote: On your comment about a gun bad at killing people. Sometime back there was some discussion about this kind of wording. If you were in a gun friendly area/DA and you where involve in a home defense situation where you killed someone. One record in our modern social media world you made the statement, "I wanted a gun that was good at killing people." The DA could cost you a lot of money.
even if you load your shotgun with glitter and butterflies; if you point it at someone and pull the trigger it's lethal force in the eyes of the law. I don't think the courts let you off easy because you picked a "kinder, gentler" boomstick.
Hollis wrote: BTW, Home defense is about defending one's home. Not killing people and not loosing everything you own in a civil law suit.
correct, but if the 1001 things you did to avoid using a gun fall through and you have a gun out, isn't that situation dire enough that you really really really want to "stop the threat" (to use the sterile term) not just perforate, anger, or even grievously wound the threat? "Barely adequate" is not a good criteria to choose a weapon.
A "how to avoid using your gun in home defense" thread would be good, but unfortunately it probably would not get the traffic of this one.

I am 100% with you.

On situation, probably everyone is unique and never happens the way we think it will happen. The way things are going for me, I will wake up in the morning on the floor and everything will be gone. If the burglars feed the dog, the dog would probably go with them too.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by LJ126 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:12 pm

RonnyRonin wrote: so, I might be reading between the lines but it sounds like you are recommending using a gun that is really bad at killing people to minimize the risk of killing the wrong person? Why have a gun at all at that point? sounds like a hardware solution to a software problem.

what procyon says mirrors what I've heard from other small game hunters and one brief personal experience with possum. There is a professional hunter/trapper on another forum that said he was super dissapoint even with buckshot on wild dogs, he won't use anything short of slugs and it sounded like he would rather have his glock.
A shotgun operator - when the gun is loaded with appropriately-sized shot, fired at an appropriate distance, on any target/s - should not be disappointed by the results, provided the shot placement is good. It is a far more powerful and effective weapon than any handgun when used correctly. This is not hyperbole, it is factual and demonstrable. A case could also be made that the lethality of the shotgun at close range meets or exceeds that of many rifles.

Birdshot is not appropriate for humans, especially those who are hellbent on killing you. Buckshot is. Slugs are effective too, but if you are using slugs you are almost certainly better served by using a rifle (chambered in an appropriate caliber.) A shotgun, *when shooting slugs, is effectively an improvised rifle.

*Excluding breaching and other specialty munitions

Handguns suck. We only carry them because they are sized conveniently and easily concealed. If you are anticipating a fight and you're reaching past your rifles and shotguns to get ahold of a handgun, there's a problem --- both software and hardware are less than ideal.

Make no mistake: if I only had one gun, it would be a handgun. But a second weapon, used solely for home defense? It would be a shotgun or rifle.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by RonnyRonin » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:28 pm

RonnyRonin wrote: so, I might be reading between the lines but it sounds like you are recommending using a gun that is really bad at killing people to minimize the risk of killing the wrong person?
I should have said "load" rather then "gun," I was mostly referring to the birdshot issue not shotguns in general.
LJ126 wrote: A shotgun operator - when the gun is loaded with appropriately-sized shot, fired at an appropriate distance, on any target/s - should not be disappointed by the results, provided the shot placement is good. It is a far more powerful and effective weapon than any handgun when used correctly.
here is his quote:
"I have killed stuff with 12g buckshot and have always found it lacking. If it’s close enough that you get a solid pattern with buck you would probably be better off using a well-designed slug. I would bet that anyone that is using buckshot consistently on animals is doing it because that is all they have."

I couldn't find the other quote (might have been in person) but one of the specific problems I heard he was having was buckshot deflecting off sculls and not killing quickly or humanely. I was extrapolating the handgun comment because he has said for the critters he deals with he doesn't feel undergunned with 9mm gold dots, and doesn't seem to have any complaints about their terminal performance. He could be referring to his contentment in the context of it's portability, he has killed a bunch of stuff with it but it is not his main work gun.

I think he mostly deals with small stuff (coyotes and whatnot) but his experience is quite extensive and I tend to listen intently to what he has to say since he talks about hundreds of animals rather then gel and numbers.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Waywatcher » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:17 am

I've made that decision:

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20 gauge Remington 870 with 18" barrel loaded with #3 Buck, secured in a ShotLock. I want the increased likelihood of hitting that a long gun provides, combined with the overwhelming right-now-power of twenty .25 caliber projectiles launched at once.

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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by doc66 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:44 pm

Here's the problem with shot; it is a round ball with no expansion properties and limited penetration due to size and weight.

What makes buckshot effective are the number of those round balls that you can put on target and as often as possible. One load of buckshot is not as effective as three loads. Just like one 9mm bullet is not as effective as three, or four, or eight. What makes the 9mm more effective is that you have fifteen on hand to put on target and it is more controllable and loads a hell of a lot faster than fifteen rounds of buckshot. Plus the penetration, the expansion of the round, the distance it will shoot... and on and on.

Can buckshot be effective? It sure as hell can. When you use it within the close confines that the round retains it maximum effective pattern, it can be devastating on a good COM hit. But like everything else out there, you have to place it on target where it will do the most damage.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by angelofwar » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:05 pm

In the past, my answer would have automatically been a shotty...but, as I've matured in "all things gun", I have learned that the maneuverability a pistol allows makes it the go to option for home defense in an intruder situation. Don't get me wrong...my 870 Marine Magnum will always be there just in case, but, if there a bump in the night, I grab my Surefire, fixed blade knife, and a pistol (currently between my 1911 and a S&W .38 spcl Airweight).

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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Waywatcher » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:59 pm

doc66 wrote:Here's the problem with shot; it is a round ball with no expansion properties and limited penetration due to size and weight.

What makes buckshot effective are the number of those round balls that you can put on target and as often as possible. One load of buckshot is not as effective as three loads. Just like one 9mm bullet is not as effective as three, or four, or eight. What makes the 9mm more effective is that you have fifteen on hand to put on target and it is more controllable and loads a hell of a lot faster than fifteen rounds of buckshot. Plus the penetration, the expansion of the round, the distance it will shoot... and on and on.

Can buckshot be effective? It sure as hell can. When you use it within the close confines that the round retains it maximum effective pattern, it can be devastating on a good COM hit. But like everything else out there, you have to place it on target where it will do the most damage.
It's not fair to say that buckshot has "limited penetration." 00 buckshot will typically penetrate over 20" of gelatin. #4 Buck around 15."

Expansion is an apples and oranges topic--00 buckshot pellets don't expand, sure, but there are 9 of them each at .33." The amount of actual hole (surface area) that this would make is 0.77 square inches. (An expanded 9mm bullet is less than half of that.) #4 has 1.22 square inches of surface area. (My favored 20 gauge buckshot has 0.98 square inches.)

Plus, a shotgun can launch literally 100 projectiles downrange in just a few seconds from an average user. Each projectile having a diameter of .24 or .25 (#4, #3). :awesome:

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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by TDW586 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:02 am

Waywatcher wrote: there are 9 of them each at .33." The amount of actual hole (surface area) that this would make is 0.77 square inches. (An expanded 9mm bullet is less than half of that.) #4 has 1.22 square inches of surface area. (My favored 20 gauge buckshot has 0.98 square inches.)
I think you're a little off on your math claiming "less than half". A typical modern 9mm defensive load will expand to anywhere between .54 and .66 (e.g., http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm). This is nitpicking and I don't think surface area is the most important factor, just wanted to point that out.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by LJ126 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:10 am

doc66 wrote:Here's the problem with shot; it is a round ball with no expansion properties and limited penetration due to size and weight.

What makes buckshot effective are the number of those round balls that you can put on target and as often as possible. One load of buckshot is not as effective as three loads. Just like one 9mm bullet is not as effective as three, or four, or eight. What makes the 9mm more effective is that you have fifteen on hand to put on target and it is more controllable and loads a hell of a lot faster than fifteen rounds of buckshot. Plus the penetration, the expansion of the round, the distance it will shoot... and on and on.

Can buckshot be effective? It sure as hell can. When you use it within the close confines that the round retains it maximum effective pattern, it can be devastating on a good COM hit. But like everything else out there, you have to place it on target where it will do the most damage.
I agree with everything you've said, but I take a different analysis of the same facts.

Shot doesn't expand. However, at typical home defense distances - muzzle contact to 10 yards - the expanding nature of the pattern of shot may provide preferential results to expanding JHP bullets. A muzzle-contact shot would not be unlike leaving a 12 gauge hole, as it would strike as a single mass. At 10 yards, the pattern will typically spread anywhere from 3" to 6", possibly more. The ability of a shot like this to perforate multiple bodily organs with a single discharge of the weapon, and will undoubtedly be more effective in putting an end to the hostility of one's assailant than a single JHP bullet.

Penetration of most buckshot loads equals that of a 9mm JHP load in typical home defense distances, and both are equally ineffective against an armored assailant.

9mm doesn't recoil as much, but with a semi-automatic shotgun, I can put lead on target as fast as I can with my Glock. For me, there's no practical difference between the two in terms of speed.

Yes, the shotgun is more difficult to reload than a handgun. However, I've always taken a certain amount of issue with the equation that a weapon that is easier to reload is somehow better at resolving a fight. If the shotgun is chosen for home defense, learning how to properly keep the weapon loaded to capacity is a requirement.

A lot of people seem to believe that somehow the shotgun will be "easier" to put lead on target than a handgun or rifle. This simply isn't true. It might be a little more forgiving to minute imperfections of sight alignment, but every bit as much aim is required to make a good center mass hit.

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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Hollis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:36 am

10 M is about 33 feet.

Home size does matter, a 600 sq ft apartment surrounded by other apartment is not the same as a 4000 sq ft house in a rural setting.

The home owner, well for the tactically trained member not so much a issue as the person who has a gun and does not shoot much. Or the person you has a problem keeping a cool head in crisis.

We all do not have the same considerations, skill level and cool heads. Also the person who want to redistribute the wealth is not all the same as the others.

What us is the stat on a defense shooting, a few rounds? Expecting to get into a firefight with the Sinola cartel tact squad is probably not ever going to happen.



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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Waywatcher » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:58 am

TDW586 wrote:
Waywatcher wrote: there are 9 of them each at .33." The amount of actual hole (surface area) that this would make is 0.77 square inches. (An expanded 9mm bullet is less than half of that.) #4 has 1.22 square inches of surface area. (My favored 20 gauge buckshot has 0.98 square inches.)
I think you're a little off on your math claiming "less than half". A typical modern 9mm defensive load will expand to anywhere between .54 and .66 (e.g., http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm). This is nitpicking and I don't think surface area is the most important factor, just wanted to point that out.
Nope, I wasn't off. You're providing diameters and I was speaking in area. Those 9mm holes would measure between 0.23 to 0.34 square inches of actual area. Diameter alone can deceive. Area will give the better picture of how much actual hole will be made.

For a simple comparison, let's talk about a hole-saw cutting through a 2x4. A hole-saw with a 1.5" diameter will cut a hole that has an area of 1.77 square inches. A small step up to a 2" diameter hole-saw results in a massively bigger hole; 3.14 square inches. The change from 1.5 to 2 nearly doubled the size of the hole.

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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by doc66 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:30 am

Home defense isn't just the hallway; when things go bump in the night, out at the shed, in the garage, under the carport, outside the window, do you wait for it to go away or do you go out and look?

98% of the people posting on here go out and look.

Your distance immediately increases to the size of your yard.

That is the equation that every single person posting is ignoring. We all tend to do it at one time or another, we all like to pretend that we're just going to use it inside and be protected by Castle Doctrine, but the truth is the majority of us don't just think of defense as inside four walls. We pretend like we do, but we really don't.

Let me paraphrase Vincent Vega here, "We act like [we] don't, but [we] do, and that's what's so fucking cool about [it]. There's a sensuous thing going on where you don't talk about it, but you know it, she knows it, fucking [everyone else] knew it, and [we] should have fucking better known better."

You have to think larger than the hallway, because we all do it.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Waywatcher » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:39 am

I agree, doc66.

In fact that is exactly why I have backordered another 18" barrel for my 20 gauge Remington 870; this one with screw-in chokes and a rib. #3 Buckshot patterns very well at 20 yards from a modified choke and very poorly from a cylinder bore in my testing. Inside a house it's irrelevant but outside its a big deal.

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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by DarkAxel » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:56 am

doc66 wrote:Home defense isn't just the hallway; when things go bump in the night, out at the shed, in the garage, under the carport, outside the window, do you wait for it to go away or do you go out and look?

98% of the people posting on here go out and look.

Your distance immediately increases to the size of your yard.

That is the equation that every single person posting is ignoring. We all tend to do it at one time or another, we all like to pretend that we're just going to use it inside and be protected by Castle Doctrine, but the truth is the majority of us don't just think of defense as inside four walls. We pretend like we do, but we really don't.

Let me paraphrase Vincent Vega here, "We act like [we] don't, but [we] do, and that's what's so fucking cool about [it]. There's a sensuous thing going on where you don't talk about it, but you know it, she knows it, fucking [everyone else] knew it, and [we] should have fucking better known better."

You have to think larger than the hallway, because we all do it.
Shit. Lost the post.

Going outside is a different animal for me. A shotgun would be more effective than a pistol because I have 280 ft of yard between me and the road (The most likely direction a BG would come in due to terrain), and at those distances I'd have to worry about misses with a pistol hitting the neighbors, while the short effective range of a shotgun would minimize that risk, and three (four if you count the cheek weld) points of contact makes for more accurate fire.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Hollis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:02 am

doc66 wrote:Home defense isn't just the hallway; when things go bump in the night, out at the shed, in the garage, under the carport, outside the window, do you wait for it to go away or do you go out and look?

You are correct, but as the location changes the the issue is the use of lethal force changes. Inside the home is one thing, outside the home is another.

IIRC, Castle Doctrine is for inside the home. Also some states defense of property is not consider a justifiable reason to use lethal force. This is something people need to look at their own state law and talk to a person who knows the law. Stand your ground and castle doctrine helps in the defense of one's property/home. They also do not guarantee there will be no legal problems.

Like Waywatcher, going out side also means or implies that I have time. I am not waking up in the middle or night with a dark shadow standing over my bed. I guess I am fortunate, I have more than one firearm and they can be used for different purposes. Heck if worse comes to worse, I can drag out my belt fed stuff.

If one asks their local PD, they would probably say in a outside situation... call 911. Then probably secure the inside of the home. That is something that I do not want to actually hear.


For those with tactical training, going outside may not be a issue, for those who do not, it can introduce some unexpected problems.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by doc66 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:31 am

Hollis wrote:
doc66 wrote:Home defense isn't just the hallway; when things go bump in the night, out at the shed, in the garage, under the carport, outside the window, do you wait for it to go away or do you go out and look?

You are correct,
I know.

All the other stuff you said is just air.

I'm not trying to be a dick (well, maybe a little, but that's just a part of who I am) but everything else you mention up to and including the beltfed comment are just excuses to cover your ass. You'd go outside, you'd look, and you'd probably take a rifle.

So why not just use a rifle all the time?
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Hollis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:41 am

doc66 wrote:
Hollis wrote:
doc66 wrote:Home defense isn't just the hallway; when things go bump in the night, out at the shed, in the garage, under the carport, outside the window, do you wait for it to go away or do you go out and look?

You are correct,
I know.

All the other stuff you said is just air.

I'm not trying to be a dick (well, maybe a little, but that's just a part of who I am) but everything else you mention up to and including the beltfed comment are just excuses to cover your ass. You'd go outside, you'd look, and you'd probably take a rifle.

So why not just use a rifle all the time?

I gather you do not get along well with people. Or is it just reading comprehension or am I just that poor of a writer?

If you think it is air, talk to your local DA and ask.

A little reading: http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/se ... -you-best/


For those who are interested in reading more, seem like a pretty good site:

http://www.crimedoctor.com/homeinvasion.htm

http://www.crimedoctor.com/home2.htm
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by doc66 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:06 am

Dude, what you said is air, if you go outside the house with a firearm to investigate noises.


I know the laws, I enforced them for a long time.


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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Hollis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:30 am

doc66 wrote:Dude, what you said is air, if you go outside the house with a firearm to investigate noises.


I know the laws, I enforced them for a long time.


Pissing matches I don't get into on the internet, If you want to have a talk about it all, come take a MilCopp class and well have a beer after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGe_G3HDKFQ

Massad Ayoob seems to disagree with you, or in part. Then he is not addressing a person with your training. I don't always agree with him too.

I am not into a pissing match either, but information.

I have seen a lot of people buy a firearm for home or self defense and never get any real training. Those are whom I am addressing my posts or people who need to take your class. As I mentioned earlier, a person like you do not need my comments.

BTW, I am a officer of the court and get to deal with people who made some very poor choices.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by LJ126 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:17 pm

I'm still certain I'd rather have a shotgun for outside of my front door, but then again, my front and back yards are typical St. Louis yards. That "back shed" is 20 feet off of the back porch. The driveway is a stone's throw from the front door. At those distances, a shotgun is still a viable, effective choice.

As an aside, we seem to have a whole lot of POST-certified assholes who disagree (sorta?) with each other on this topic.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Hollis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:28 pm

LJ126 wrote:I'm still certain I'd rather have a shotgun for outside of my front door, but then again, my front and back yards are typical St. Louis yards. That "back shed" is 20 feet off of the back porch. The driveway is a stone's throw from the front door. At those distances, a shotgun is still a viable, effective choice.

As an aside, we seem to have a whole lot of POST-certified assholes who disagree (sorta?) with each other on this topic.

I don't see disagreement as a bad thing. BTW, looks like you have everything under control. Sounds like what I would use, if I lived in your neighborhood.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by Dave_M » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:53 pm

He's not advocating going outside, just saying that many will go outside regardless. Just like clearing out your own house, the best best is usually staying put... but if it's warranted having the increased capability is not a negative.
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Re: Pump Shotgun vs pistol for Home Defense

Post by DarkAxel » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:05 pm

doc66 wrote:
Hollis wrote:
doc66 wrote:Home defense isn't just the hallway; when things go bump in the night, out at the shed, in the garage, under the carport, outside the window, do you wait for it to go away or do you go out and look?

You are correct,
I know.

All the other stuff you said is just air.

I'm not trying to be a dick (well, maybe a little, but that's just a part of who I am) but everything else you mention up to and including the beltfed comment are just excuses to cover your ass. You'd go outside, you'd look, and you'd probably take a rifle.

So why not just use a rifle all the time?
I'm not trying to be a dick, but "rifle" wasn't part of the discussion. Add a rifle into the mix and most of us would choose rifle. I have. Would I go outside? Hell Yes. I do all the time. You are a current or former LEO, so you are well acquainted with legal standard "Reasonable Person". Would a reasonable person arm himself to investigate a suspicious noise outside at 3am? I say yes, and given the demographic makeup of my area, I'd say any grand jury investigating would agree. Of course, Castle Doctrine in most states covers more than just home invasions. I'm allowed to use lethal force to keep someone from setting fire to occupied buildings. I'm allowed to use lethal force to defend myself if I'm outside my home, too. Outside of Castle Doctrine, I'm allowed to use lethal force to defend my livestock and crops from destructive animals.

No one is ignoring the fact that people go outside to defend their homes. No one picked "rifle" because "rifle" wasn't an option in this topic.
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