Soft armor question: GoldFlex

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Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by crypto » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:35 am

All: I'm looking at getting a soft armor set, and was wondering whether anyone had any good info on Goldflex panels.

I'm interested in Goldflex because it appears to be substantially thinner than comparable aramid weaves, but if it's got the same contact-distance vulnerabilities as the much-maligned Zylon and the other UHMWPE fabrics, I'll probably stick to an aramid.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by TheZone » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:53 am

23 years wearing Point Blank products. One actual use personally, and we shoot all the vests which reached 'use-by' dates.

Thin & comfort are nice, but you want a vest that will actually do the job for the full five years.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by crypto » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:42 am

Yeah, I get that Point Blank is a quality brand. I was asking about materials though, not brands.

You'll note that even Point Blank sells about a half dozen different vests that all meet the NIJ standards, the difference in bulk and weight is in what vest is made out of what material.

Thin and comfort aren't just nice, they make one more likely to wear it.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by TheZone » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:13 am

crypto wrote:Yeah, I get that Point Blank is a quality brand. I was asking about materials though, not brands.

You'll note that even Point Blank sells about a half dozen different vests that all meet the NIJ standards, the difference in bulk and weight is in what vest is made out of what material.

Thin and comfort aren't just nice, they make one more likely to wear it.
Good points.

We just order IIA undershirt vests. Wearing is mandatory, and few wouldn't even if it wasn't. Frankly, I've worn a variety of models and they're all not fun to wear, but you get used to it, and after about forty hours of wear the panels flex and soften to conform.

Can't help you with materials, though.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by RonnyRonin » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:39 pm

I think I read this whole thread a while ago, don't remember everything but the take away was "woven kevlar good, everything else bag." While I hate broad generalizations like that it seemed the route of least resistance to just believe him:

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b ... 256&page=4

specifically mentions a lack of breathability and flexibility issues, but it sounds like his direct experience is dated. I will say I briefly worked with a body armor company in a manufacturing role that used laminate soft armor, and it did have all the flexibility of thick cardboard.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:24 pm

Oh dear god. How long is that freakin' Arf.com article going to keep coming up? The guy that wrote it was a freakin' dentist. Not some expert in the field. And he wrote it because he was selling Kevlar. It is a hatchet job that people have been taking as an article of faith for to damned long. His pictures, tests and results were all more or less fabricated to say what he wanted to say. And IIRC, most of the critical information is missing. Ignore that crap. Because that is ALL that it is. Crap.

UHMWPE is not the same thing as zylon. Zylon was a material that was used briefly, and then they found out that it deteriorated badly when exposed to sweat, moisture, and just about anything else. UHMWPE is basically Spectra. The only thing it has problems with is temperatures over 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Other than that, it is chemically inert. Kevlar is great stuff. And holds up well to heat. But it breaks down with moisture, pH exposure, and a host of other chemicals. In terms of protection, one versus the other, the UHMWPE and Kevlar are pretty close. A IIIA vest of one will stop exactly what a IIIA vest of the other will. Your biggest concern should be where you are planning to use the armor. Are you living someplace humid? UHMWPE might be the better choice. Are you planning on leaving your armor in your vehicle in Arizona during the summer? Kevlar might be the way to go. Are you someplace where you might fall or have to go in the water? UHMWPE would be the better choice. Not only because it doesn't rot or break down in water/sea water, but because it floats. Kevlar sinks. Choose your armor based on what you need it to do. Not based on what some idiot online says. And yes, that includes me. Just realize, when I talk about what armor will or won't stop, I can provide test results from an NIJ ballistics lab to back it up. The dentist can't. I spent close to $2000 of my own money having armor tested. He went out and rigged some tests for photos in his back yard.

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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by crypto » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:47 pm

The one concern I had, that I cant seem to find any info about, is whether Goldflex is still vulnerable to contact shots.

I'm thinking since its still polyethylene at the end of the day it is.

it gets humid here but I'm not worried about heat storage problems. I'm worried about gas melting the panel and it not stopping a bullet.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by crypto » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:14 pm

gun toting monkeyboy wrote:Oh dear god. How long is that freakin' Arf.com article going to keep coming up? The guy that wrote it was a freakin' dentist. Not some expert in the field
-Mb
Honestly I trust the data compiled by a dude with a doctoral degree more than I trust a few anecdotes stitched into a story by a cop or soldier. Just because a dude drives a car doesn't mean he's a mechanic or an automotive engineer.
Choose your armor based on what you need it to do. Not based on what some idiot online says.
I need it to hold up to a contact shot, which is why I was asking. I'm not going to buy a $600 vest just to shoot it anymore than I'm going to buy a car to crash test it myself.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:39 pm

crypto wrote:
gun toting monkeyboy wrote:Oh dear god. How long is that freakin' Arf.com article going to keep coming up? The guy that wrote it was a freakin' dentist. Not some expert in the field
-Mb
Honestly I trust the data compiled by a dude with a doctoral degree more than I trust a few anecdotes stitched into a story by a cop or soldier. Just because a dude drives a car doesn't mean he's a mechanic or an automotive engineer.
Choose your armor based on what you need it to do. Not based on what some idiot online says.
I need it to hold up to a contact shot, which is why I was asking. I'm not going to buy a $600 vest just to shoot it anymore than I'm going to buy a car to crash test it myself.
It wasn't the fact that he was a dentist that was the issue. It was the fact that the whole reason he did that thread was to drum up sales on his Kevlar. His whole article is written to show how everything else is inferior. And I didn't buy armor to just shoot it up personally. I had a friend that owned a body armor business. When I was looking at buying it from him (the business, not just armor), I sent samples of all the different products off to Oregon Ballistics Laboratory to have it tested. I also spent a lot of time talking to the guys that work at the lab to get their opinion on armor in general. I won't even go into their opinion of that Arf.com article. Do your own research. Don't rely on some random guy online claiming that a contact shot will melt through a UHMWPE vest. Because it won't. I know, because I have tried.

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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by RonnyRonin » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:10 pm

gun toting monkeyboy wrote:Don't rely on some random guy online claiming that a contact shot will melt through a UHMWPE vest. Because it won't. I know, because I have tried.

-Mb
do you remember specific trade names of the UHMWPE you tested? finding info on this sort of thing is darn hard since liability makes for tight lips. I'd love to hear more about your specific experiences.
I don't think I was ever told what the specific material I worked with was but I'm pretty sure it was some kind of dyneema.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:59 am

The company was Majestic Armor. They imported UHMWPE vests under their own brand name from a factory in China. The material they used was nearly identical to Honeywell's Spectra fiber. Most of the UHMWPE armor out there is. Dyneema is nearly the same thing. The factory they were using in China makes their own material, and sell everything from armor to fishing line. UHMWPE is the only thing that produce. I sold a bunch of the Majestic Armor odd lots through a couple of group buys on several forums a few years back, before he decided he wanted to get out of the business. I ended up buying the company, but real life has kept me too busy to do much with it. One of these days I'll get around to starting it back up.

As for my experiences, it was a lot of fun going out and shooting the hell out of vests and plates. The lab results were much more reliable, but not nearly as entertaining. I also got to help him develop some of the plate carriers and vests to hold the panels and plates. Let me tell you, that is more work to get right than getting the armor to fit it. All of the armor companies over there sub their sewing projects to other factories. They just produce the armor to go in it. Getting the factory that makes the armor to correctly relay the specs you want for the carriers to their subcontractor takes months. Them armoring it up once they get a hold of the carrier takes a matter of days.

The one thing I learned about armor is that you really do need to match the material to your environment. I liked how abrasion-resistant and chemically inert the UHMWPE was. And how water resistant it was. But I also liked how flame resistant the Kevlar was. If I had to choose one, I would go with the UHMWPE, if only because I am more familiar with it. But I would NOT feel under-protected with a similarly-rated Kevlar vest. I would suggest you do your own research. And if anybody tells you that their armor is "NIJ Certified", go look it up on the NIJ website. If it isn't there, then it isn't. If they say that it has been rated to meet the NIJ specs, ask to see the lab results, and contact the lab to confirm it. A lot of the salesmen out there don't know what the hell they are talking about, and use a lot of the terms incorrectly. Get lab results, and NIJ certified brand, or go with one of the major brands with a solid reputation.

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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by TheZone » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:54 am

crypto wrote:I need it to hold up to a contact shot, which is why I was asking. I'm not going to buy a $600 vest just to shoot it anymore than I'm going to buy a car to crash test it myself.
I have to ask: why?

Body armor is not really concealable unless you're wearing a parka. If a subject has the option of a contact shot, why would he go for the torso instead of the head?
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by Rev » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:00 am

TheZone wrote:If a subject has the option of a contact shot, why would he go for the torso instead of the head?
Most self defense shootings happen real close up. If there is a struggle, the gun will be right up on him.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by TheZone » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:18 am

Rev wrote:
TheZone wrote:If a subject has the option of a contact shot, why would he go for the torso instead of the head?
Most self defense shootings happen real close up. If there is a struggle, the gun will be right up on him.
6'-9', mostly. Its risky to shove a semi-auto handgun to a contact position because too much pressure can move the slide out of battery and prevent firing.

However, even if your armor stops penetration the kinetic energy of the round is still received. I took a .38 wadcutter from about 14' in the ribs, and it knocked me to my knees.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by RonnyRonin » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:39 am

TheZone wrote:
However, even if your armor stops penetration the kinetic energy of the round is still received. I took a .38 wadcutter from about 14' in the ribs, and it knocked me to my knees.
would you have preferred to have not been wearing armor? whats your point?
TheZone wrote: Body armor is not really concealable unless you're wearing a parka.
false. a light jacket or sweater is just fine if you know what you are doing.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by RonnyRonin » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:43 am

gun toting monkeyboy wrote:The company was Majestic Armor. They imported UHMWPE vests under their own brand name from a factory in China.
My only experience with china is in an apparel/outdoor gear setting, but I know all the shenanigans the chinese try to pull with those products, do you have to constantly test every shipment that comes in to make sure they are still meeting spec? Everyone I've talked to (from tents to shirts to smart phones) says they'll send you great samples and then randomly change the product periodically through a production run.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by crypto » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:44 am

Rev wrote:
TheZone wrote:If a subject has the option of a contact shot, why would he go for the torso instead of the head?
Most self defense shootings happen real close up. If there is a struggle, the gun will be right up on him.

^^ This. In my opinion, based on my own force-on-force training, and the lay research Ive done on defensive shooting outcomes, contact distance shootings happen when an encounter goes bad and a struggle ensues. I got shot in the torso a lot more than in the head. I'm not worried about someone walking up to me and popping me in the head, I don't feel that's a realistic scenario to try to protect against.

I am worried that I might get into an exceedingly short-range grapple and gunfight during a mugging.

I live in St. Louis City, and while we routinely fight with Detroit and Camden NJ for the honor of Murder Capital of the US, we also put up a very strong showing for Assaults and Armed Robbery. I walk a lot of places at night that are fairly sketchy, and situational awareness only goes so far.

On the topic of concealability, I respectfully disagree. A IIIA vest with IV plates is hard to conceal, but a IIA aramid vest made properly can readily be concealed by most of the stuff I wear every day. the UHMWPE vests are much thinner than aramids and conceal even better.

And yeah, regarding kinetic energy and blunt force trauma: if I'm fighting for my life I would much rather have to fight through getting hit in the ribs with a hammer than having my lungs on the sidewalk behind me.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by TheZone » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:32 am

crypto wrote:
Rev wrote:
TheZone wrote:If a subject has the option of a contact shot, why would he go for the torso instead of the head?
Most self defense shootings happen real close up. If there is a struggle, the gun will be right up on him.

^^ This. In my opinion, based on my own force-on-force training, and the lay research Ive done on defensive shooting outcomes, contact distance shootings happen when an encounter goes bad and a struggle ensues. I got shot in the torso a lot more than in the head. I'm not worried about someone walking up to me and popping me in the head, I don't feel that's a realistic scenario to try to protect against.

I am worried that I might get into an exceedingly short-range grapple and gunfight during a mugging.

I live in St. Louis City, and while we routinely fight with Detroit and Camden NJ for the honor of Murder Capital of the US, we also put up a very strong showing for Assaults and Armed Robbery. I walk a lot of places at night that are fairly sketchy, and situational awareness only goes so far.

On the topic of concealability, I respectfully disagree. A IIIA vest with IV plates is hard to conceal, but a IIA aramid vest made properly can readily be concealed by most of the stuff I wear every day. the UHMWPE vests are much thinner than aramids and conceal even better.

And yeah, regarding kinetic energy and blunt force trauma: if I'm fighting for my life I would much rather have to fight through getting hit in the ribs with a hammer than having my lungs on the sidewalk behind me.
OK. I was just curious.

Clothing can hide the vest, true-I wear a IIA vest every day- but what is extremely difficult to hide is the way your torso moves when you are wearing it.

Much like a girdle, it impacts your posture and body movement.

On the plus side, if the mugger spots the fact you're wearing armor, the logical assumption is you are an LEO would work to your advantage. Or at least I assume so-I've never been to St. Louis.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by crypto » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:40 am

Well, before last night I'd have agreed with you, but who knows now. :(

I think being an alert and muscular 6'3" with a liberal amount of stinkeye helps, though. I figure I don't have to look like the hardest target, just not the softest.

This armor will probably get worn more often at training classes than when I'm out, but as you may have heard, things are kind of weird around here lately, so I'm not above wearing a vest to go out.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by TheZone » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:51 am

crypto wrote:Well, before last night I'd have agreed with you, but who knows now. :(

I think being an alert and muscular 6'3" with a liberal amount of stinkeye helps, though. I figure I don't have to look like the hardest target, just not the softest.

This armor will probably get worn more often at training classes than when I'm out, but as you may have heard, things are kind of weird around here lately, so I'm not above wearing a vest to go out.
No joke.

Its always good to have a plan, and obviously you're giving yours a great deal of careful thought.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:48 pm

RonnyRonin wrote:
gun toting monkeyboy wrote:The company was Majestic Armor. They imported UHMWPE vests under their own brand name from a factory in China.
My only experience with china is in an apparel/outdoor gear setting, but I know all the shenanigans the chinese try to pull with those products, do you have to constantly test every shipment that comes in to make sure they are still meeting spec? Everyone I've talked to (from tents to shirts to smart phones) says they'll send you great samples and then randomly change the product periodically through a production run.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell. Trust but verify. What my friend would do was weigh and measure each piece as it came in, and then send off 2 random samples from each shipment for testing. Since all the factory over there does is body armor, and they normally run huge lots for military contracts around the world, they actually stayed pretty consistent. The only problem he ran into was a shipment of IIIA panels that were actually only level II when tested. They were a few sheets of fabric short of what he had been getting in the armor, so while they would stop the IIIA threats, they would deform enough to fail the IIIA test. They passed the II test with flying colors, but he still reamed the sales guy thoroughly. They never tried cutting corners again. I guess they realized somebody on this end was paying attention. I still have a bunch of those, because most people wanted IIIA, not II, so they didn't really sell all that well. On the other hand, it did validate the expense of having samples tested. Each test costs around $300 to have it run by the lab. But that is still far better than selling a dud vest to somebody who might actually need it.

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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by crypto » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Did you say you have a bunch of II's laying around?

Maybe we can talk, if some of them are Tall or extra-tall.
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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:38 pm

crypto wrote:Did you say you have a bunch of II's laying around?

Maybe we can talk, if some of them are Tall or extra-tall.
Right now most of what I have laying around are level III and level IV plates, mostly the "in conjunction with" type, and a bunch of level II 10"x12" soft panels. I don't actually know, as I haven't had a chance to do much with any of it since I bought it all. Like I said, real life has been keeping me busy. My purpose in joining this thread wasn't to sell stuff. It was mostly because that Arf.com article never fails to piss me off. And people should do their own research. Look at where you will be using the armor, and how you will be using it. If you decide that you want UHMWPE, and panels or plates would be helpful for you, send me a PM. But at this point, I can't help with the long/tall vests, as the only vests I have left are standard sizes. Most of the stock I picked up was for adding protection to plate carriers, as that was what was most popular about a year and a half ago.

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Re: Soft armor question: GoldFlex

Post by 0122358 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:45 pm

Tagged because I too would like a concealed armor vest down the road
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