How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Stercutus » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:29 pm

I don't really understand your concept of defending your place so I hesitate to answer. I will say that 1.5 acres is tiny. I would try to make it work with two people centrally located and up high in a covered and concealed position(s). There will be dead spaces just as there would be in any defense and you can cover those in other ways. You don't have enough people to even try to have a perimeter defense of any kind so the number of rifles is moot.

11 people with .357s will greatly outclass most folks trying to do you harm as a target of opportunity. Against a group of determined raiders your position is likely hopeless.

So two rifles on watch. This is a 20% workload and difficult to manage if you are trying to do other tasks as well. Having a few spare in case of an emergency would be a great idea too.
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by jor-el » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:35 pm

Maast wrote: I'm working on getting more of the lot cleared but I'm not there yet, most of my trees are BIG tall evergreen trees way over 75 feet - they're a PITA because I can't just drop them since they're tall enough to crush either the house, a neighbors house, or power lines.
I just realized this. Those trees HAVE to come down because if you are concerned about raiders attacking the stronghold those trees would be their priority to drop on your home or your power lines causing the most damage with the least effort.

You should also set up something like a fire base or two that could see your blind spots and be covered from the main house. They would form the basis of an outer perimeter that could be abandoned or give early warning should a penetration of the property line occur.

You could arrange a strategy of placing a rifleman with a shotgunner where the rifleman challenges anyone entering the property, while the shotgun only engages with multiple hostiles appearing or from an approach the rifle is not covering.
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by 0122358 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:38 pm

As a fellow citizen of the Harbor...Id say 6 AKs would do nicely, that's over half of your able bodies shooting force with the shotguns and bolt gun adding an additional 2-3 guns. The rest armed with side arms for around the house/saferooms. The AK is easy enough to learn on that it wouldn't take more than an hour or so to get the real basics down. Now movement drills, bounding, communication while firing, reload drills, those are more skill intense but dry firing or airsoft or paint ball would cut down on the cost. Depending on where the rest of your family lives you could go start training in basic tactics. The Olympic foothills have lots of shooting pits for a few ply board barricade related drills.

The Firearms academy of Seattle and Insights training center are great schools to acquire knowledge.

As for threats...its Tacoma...druggies and gangs are the biggest threat to the harbor if they really want to cross the Narrows bridge. Bremerton might cause issues but I highly doubt it. The key peninsula is full of meth heads but to the actual harbor depending on your exact area in the town weather in city limits or outside...its also highly unlikely.

As for ammo...Id say 2 to 2.5 crates per gun. So about what...2100 to 3000 rounds. But extra magazines are a must as well. Figure 9-12 for each gun.
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Das Sheep » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:19 am

4 and a pouch/rig and red dot for each.

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by MacAttack » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:44 am

One for each corner.
Plus ammo, chest rig for each and radio for each. Maybe even binoculars for those positions that afford a longer visual range.

No use having a fighting position with no way of sending back messages or seeing the bad guys.

Pump shotguns for everyone else.


As for cutting down the trees. Why?

Think about it first. But if the crap hits the fan then you don't have a power service to worry about, its more than likely not going to be working anyways.
As for the trees falling on the house. Well cut down the dangerous ones and keep as many as possible.

Standing trees serve a bunch of uses. First they screen your house from the weather.
Second they offer fire wood at your convenience. The SHTF and you have firewood, it might be harder to start but at least its available.
Third they screen your area from the bad guys sight and block in and out sounds and light.
They offer an easier area to defend. They stop, deflect and or slow down bullets to an extent.
You don't have enough people to use a free fire zone effectively.
Plus you more than likely don't have a good free fire zone outside your property. Why cut down your hiding areas when the enemy will still have all of his? A free fire zone is to take away their hiding places not yours.
They can stop or slow down vehicles. They also funnel them into known and thus dependable areas.

For your trees to be able to hind the bad guys the bad guys have to get past your guards first. And if that has happened then they are just that much better than your guys and your tanked anyway.

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:43 am

Taking into account some type of "risk assessment", I would say getting in a firefight everyday, for hours on end, expending thousands of rounds, is very very very unlikely. So for me, having all AK type rifles is not a huge factor, as worrying about parts and such is unneccessary. Caliber, sure. So I would go for the cheapest 7.62x39 rifle out there: the SKS or even VZ58. They can be had from $300-400. I'd even take a hand full of mosins and a few crates of surplus ammo to go super cheap.

Number of guns, I'd say 2 other than yours is a minimum to be psuedo-comfy. A situation where you'd need patrols is unlikely, but if it happens, I think having two others coordinating with yourself can get by. But that's just me...
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by jor-el » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:20 pm

Umm... Macattack, do you realize unless we're talking an "L" shaped piece of land, the entire arena in question is perhaps the total area of two football fields at most? Also, due to the arena's size, odds are there is terrain involved that cannot be touched.
The OP didn't mention it, but I'm guessing the parcel is irregular in shape, and neighbors land intervenes with ideal observation from a central house.

Trees have their uses, good and bad. For weather protection, they need to be blocking the direction from prevailing winds, and nowhere else. The OP should find winds tend to come from a primary direction in the winter, and another in summer. Anywhere else, and they interfere with, well, everything. I'm guessing gardening or limited farming is an intended goal. If raising livestock is a goal, a compound could be formed using wood from harvested trees to keep them close to the house and form an inner perimeter.

Unlike Macattack, I really don't like the idea of abandoning your power lines to a likely enemy attack. I'm guessing your phone and internet run along the same lines. You WANT your communication lines vulnerable, too? Do the math.

Hiding areas? Funnels? Hiding implies being in a position to flee, and not necessarily a position of cover. Funnels imply you have the space on the land to waste. It's a 300 foot square at best, not the Ponderosa.
It's the OP's house and home. A surprise attack is probably the OP's nightmare scenario, which makes the home the start point for that scenario. As the OP indicated a need for some property line patrol, whoever gets that duty should be manevering from one prepared position to the next. These little check points should provide some cover from an outside attack, but not provide protection for an attacker.
The total distances involved are short enough a patrol could signal the house with a flashlight or just shout out. (The comedic image of watching two people shouting into their cell phones while just across the street from each other. The only thing that beats that is the same two people shouting at each other to keep quiet so they can hear their phone. Talking to each other.)

Macattack's last comment is of a sentiment that has no place on this board. This is an extended family we're talking about. None of the people can be considered expendable nor easily dismissed, as if we were discussing a game. Our purpose is to suss out a way to get his family past such an event. That means Adam, Eric, Joe, Will and even Jamie have to make it out alive.
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by jor-el » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Perhaps if the OP could draw us a picture of the property without landmarks that would pinpoint its location.

I'm guessing it's not this place;

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:35 pm

the entire arena in question is perhaps the total area of two football fields at most?
A bit less than that. A football field is 1.3 acres roughly. Figure a runner could cross the whole thing in 20 seconds and a sprinter in about 12-16 seconds. Essentially anyone standing on the property line is within final contact distances and pistol range of the house already.
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by MacAttack » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:52 pm

Power from the grid is NEVER secure.

I can shut his power off from well outside his line of sight just by following the lines back from his home to a safe position and take them down there.

Worrying about the bad guys cutting down the trees on his own property for any reason is not logical. Not practical for them, the bad guys.

Providing a visual screen for his property is a better use for the trees. Just because I mentioned a single use like a wind screen does not mean thats the only use or idea.

Cut them all down and you just give the bad guys a way to watch everything going on on the property. If you at least screen the house you provide a place to do things out of the view of others. A place to hide true numbers, intent and thus gain some power.


As for the property being an odd shape. There is nothing saying you need to defend every single foot of it. Giving up an indefensible area to better secure the rest is fine. In fact you could then make that are even harder to use and defend by clearing it leaving no place to hide. Thus the bad guys have little chance of using.

As for having trees around the edge of the property. With only one road onto the property it makes blocking it off that much easier.

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by jor-el » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:49 am

Macattack, did you read the OP?
One entire boundary line is a local road. It's pretty fracking obvious the house and property are there, trying to hide it makes no sense since the other properties are also occupied. Every time someone drives down the road, they'll drive by his house among others.
If the OP's house is the only one hidden, would THAT not attract attention?
He's clearing the land for possible future agriculture. What sense would leaving trees in the middle of farmland or a garden make? Beyond shade trees for the summer and windblocking trees for the winter, the other trees are best suited as raw material for fortifications or housing livestock.

I'm assuming the OP has a fence up defining the property line. If not, that would be a high priority if most of your neighbors have one up as well.
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by MacAttack » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:52 am

He is growing a hedge line around three sides and already has about a half acre cleared in the middle plus the area directly around the house.

He could expand the cleared area but I personally would leave a perimeter or trees along with the hedge.

Knowing the building and land are there is different from knowing everything going on on the property because you can see everything going on. Privacy is its own security.


He could clear the whole of the land and still not have enough to feed 12 people.
If the houses are as packed together as he says then firearm hunting might just be out of the question also.

He could replace some of the trees with fruit/nut trees.

He didn't say how long that boundary line is. I have a piece of wooded property with a "frontage" on the main road of just 15 feet but a total area of 10 acres. His could be very similar.

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by tedbeau » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:00 pm

ashwednesday wrote:Well-established military doctrine to answer this qvestion:

Officer #1: [repeating through megaphone] The one with the rifle shoots!

Officer #2: [handing out rifles] One out of two gets rifle.

Officer #1: The one without, follows him! When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!
I like it. Hopefully it never really comes down to this!
You might also want to look at reloading ammo. Not mandatory but it sure can make a difference if you stock up on powder, primers, bullets, etc and have the system up and working to get decent reloads. I know the 7.62×39 is not the easiest to set up reloading, but there is plenty of info out there on how to get started in it.
As far as reloading, would it pay to reload 7.62? Right now the cost of steel cased 7.62 is as low as $5.00/20 rounds. Brass rounds cost a bit more than twice as much. I don't know what your cost per round for powder, bullets and primers would be but if you factor in labor time I doubt if you could beat the price per round of steel cased. I would just stock steel cased tula or brown bear. I agree you want an absolute minimum of 4 AK's that gives you 360 degrees of fire from a central location if TSHTF for real. Obviously more is better. I like my AK, yet in a perfect world I would have an AR ALSO, and a nice sniper rifle, maybe something in .338 Lupua.

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by woodsghost » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:35 pm

tedbeau wrote:
As far as reloading, would it pay to reload 7.62? Right now the cost of steel cased 7.62 is as low as $5.00/20 rounds. Brass rounds cost a bit more than twice as much. I don't know what your cost per round for powder, bullets and primers would be but if you factor in labor time I doubt if you could beat the price per round of steel cased. I would just stock steel cased tula or brown bear....
If one is shooting Tula or anything less than $.25 a round, it is not economical to reload. For x39 hunting rounds, it is more economical to reload.

If casting one's own bullets, reloading x39 makes a little more sense from an economic standpoint.

If stocking up the max number of rounds, then buying primers and powder, casting bullets, and setting aside brass (and maybe steel) makes a lot of sense. This would make a LOT of sense if planning for another ammo shortage, or a world wide disaster which knocks us all out for more than 6 months. IMO.
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:53 pm

jor-el wrote:Perhaps if the OP could draw us a picture of the property without landmarks that would pinpoint its location.

I'm guessing it's not this place;

Image
Funny...all that land to defend and all the Cartwrights had were 4 family members packing six shooters and leverguns.

Image

But defending 1.5 acres with 11 guys you going to need AK-47s

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by raptor » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:21 pm

Mikeyboy wrote:
But defending 1.5 acres with 11 guys you going to need AK-47s

Defending 1.5 acres in real life is infinitely more risky than defending the Pondarosa on a fictional TV show. On the TV show you can count on the writers and "pay or play" employment contracts to keep you alive. :D

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Stercutus » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:09 pm

raptor wrote:
Mikeyboy wrote:
But defending 1.5 acres with 11 guys you going to need AK-47s

Defending 1.5 acres in real life is infinitely more risky than defending the Pondarosa on a fictional TV show. On the TV show you can count on the writers and "pay or play" employment contracts to keep you alive. :D
Six shooters my butt. Those guys would routinely fire 15-20 rounds without reloading. They had the competition outgunned.
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Halfapint » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:44 am

Stercutus wrote:
raptor wrote:
Mikeyboy wrote:
But defending 1.5 acres with 11 guys you going to need AK-47s

Defending 1.5 acres in real life is infinitely more risky than defending the Pondarosa on a fictional TV show. On the TV show you can count on the writers and "pay or play" employment contracts to keep you alive. :D
Six shooters my butt. Those guys would routinely fire 15-20 rounds without reloading. They had the competition outgunned.
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On topic I still say 5..... Because you could make due with 4, but 5 would have you better off. That's roughly 1 rifle for 2 people. So you would be following the old soviet adage that ashwednesday spoke of....
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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by nolongpork » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:13 am

22 Mosins

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Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by JDLampy » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:57 am

I saw at least one other say to have a least one rifle for every two. Coming from a military background I would agree that at least half should have a rifle. I would also have everyone paired up, aka the battle buddy system the military uses. Always have someone to watch your back and help you when one person can't handle it. That way at least one will have a rifle at all times. They can always trade the rifle off. I would have them carry at least three full mags. That's carrying it light too. My thought is if you are on your land with a established place for ammo and to defend then three mags should be enough to hold off or get back to the established point.

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