How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

General discussions regarding topics that aren't covered in one of the other sub-forums. NO DISCUSSION OF POLITICS!

Moderators: ZS Global Moderators, ZS Postal Match Officers

User avatar
Maast
* * *
Posts: 555
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:26 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Sean of the Dead
Location: Gig Harbor (ish), WA

How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Maast » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:36 am

My place is the BOL for my family, for various reasons we've decided to standardize on the AKM47 rifle as our main "security" rifle.

In a perfect world each shooter would have their own personal rifle. However even at $449 each its not going to happen.

So, in your opinion whats the minimum number of security rifles our group would need?

As a follow on question, how much ammo per rifle?

We're in an area where 1 acre and larger lots are standard and nowhere near a highway. My land is a 1.5 acre lot with a neighborhood road along 1 side of it. I'm growing a living wall of spiny berberis & rosa rugosa around 3 sides which should be grown out in 2-3 years.

Honestly, I have no idea what my actual threat environment would be. A major city is just ~15 miles away (Tacoma). but I'm (intentionally) in an obscure rural neighborhood that's hard to get to. I'm good friends with a few of my neighbors and friendly with all of them, there aren't any douchebags that I know of. This is a case of planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

I've put ~800 round throughmy M214 AKM and I'm really happy with the rifle - it's exceeded every expectation by far and IMO it's hands down the best value there is in the AK platform. As far as ammo goes so far I've 3100 (ish) rounds for my one M214 and a beater POS WASR.
I've a few other guns I've accumulated over the years but it's a hodgepodge (shotguns, couple .22 rifles, a 30-06, 10mm, 357, etc).

Everybody is going to have their own 357 sidearm, mainly because they mostly already own them though I'd have preferred non-revolvers in 10mm, 9mm or .40.

I don't really want to get in a AK/AR discussion since it's already been decided, or for that matter the brands of AK since that's been decided as well.

I'd really like to keep it focused on how many shooters and rifles are needed to provide security.

My personal background is that I'm ex-military with some training in ground combat (spent 22 years in various forms of a Forward Air Control Post) and I've got an idea of what I need but I'd like to hear from people with more experience in perimeter security.

Thanks!
"Everybody thinks they're the hero of their own story"

bufordtjustice
* *
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:17 pm

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by bufordtjustice » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:25 am

Given the information you provided, I will say 6. 4 for some sort of maneuver element and two to protect your stuff and the rest of the group. That would be an absolute minimum and still too low for my taste.

I'm also not sure 1.5 acres is going to require much "security." You could effectively patrol it by standing in place and turning in a circle.

As far as ammo, a good starting number is 1000 rounds per rifle.

There are few correct answers for these kinds of scenarios though. Too many variables effect the outcome.

Zimmy
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 965
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 11:11 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days later, Return of the Living Dead
Location: Trinity City, Texas

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Zimmy » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:32 am

Since you have shotguns, I'd look at rifle/shotgun teams until you can finish the rifle purchases. If your perimeter is wooded you should have enough range with the scatterguns to provide support fire to the rifle. Thus minimum 5 rifles if you have 5 shotguns. If you're still short rifles and shotguns, buy rifles with your budget and plan on the mix matched calibers to carry the weight in the meantime.

Just my .02
Boldly going nowhere

User avatar
mantis
* * * * *
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by mantis » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:14 am

What sort of threat are you anticipating? One big advantage that you have is that you can easily prepare fighting positions well in advance and take the time to pre-sight the whole area. Having everyone armed with an AK is not necessarily the best bet. Use it as your primary long arm for sure but you will want to have at least one or two with accurate weapons out to longer range to act as over-watch/snipers. Off the shelf scoped hunting rifles chambering .308 or greater will fill that role nicely.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

User avatar
crypto
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
Posts: 16635
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: City of Saint Louis

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by crypto » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:20 am

Are you talking perimeter defensive positions, or perimeter patrols?

If it's the former, 4-5 if you just give everyone 180-degree sectors of fire, 8-9 if you want to provide crossfire, I guess.


If you're doing walking patrols, probably 5-6 but I'd be really reluctant to do that, lest you end up with some friendly fire.

But whats your plan? If your plan is to have everyone stay by the house instead of being at the property line, you'd need less.

I guess it all depends on what you're defending against.
MF'N TEAM LEADER

"Some people think that the best way to stop the leopard is to cut the horns off the gazelle. This, my friends, is insane."

Image
Image

alessandro
* *
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: Italy

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by alessandro » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:38 am

Maast wrote:I've a few other guns I've accumulated over the years but it's a hodgepodge (shotguns, couple .22 rifles, a 30-06, 10mm, 357, etc).
If you friends have many handguns as you perhaps they could sell some one of them to buy more rifle.
Anyway have you already thought at some technological mechanisms for observation of the perimeter (day and night)?
Or perhaps given the territorial extension involved would not be practical or economical enough?
1.5 acre = 6070.29 mq = 6.07029 kmq
Since, in the end, any type of danger require a proper awareness, in time.

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17053
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by raptor » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:17 pm

This kind of question always has me asking about the skill level of the people you want to arm. If they do not regularly shoot anything but the .357 revolvers they have then you will have to train them on the firearm you stock. The skill level as well as terrain (as well as type of risks/threats) have lot to do with the number needed for security.

As for the number of rifles I would say one rifle per person on active "guard duty" and one spare is the minimum along with an applicable set of spare parts to keep them functioning.

Since .357 is a common caliber I would stock up on .357/.38 spl to ensure adequate ammo for a common firearm. A working revolver with ammo beats the hell out of nothing at all especially if you can hit a target at 30 +/-yards with it.

I ran through an exercise a while back along somewhat similar lines when arming "courtesy"guards in my building. I had a different primary goal (minimize liability) but found I needed really only two firearms (one on duty and one spare in a safe). Firearms can work 24/7 and they can be passed to the relief watch.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=113438

User avatar
emclean
* * * * *
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:31 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Fido
Zombieland
Location: NW Indiana

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by emclean » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:30 pm

In a perfect world each shooter would have their own personal rifle. However even at $449 each its not going to happen.
then pick a cheaper rifle. i can not think of a reason that is would be better to have one man with an AK, over two or three men armed with lever, or bolt guns. the SKS is about half the price of the AK, and about as reliable if you don't try to tac-cool it out.
if you only have guns for those on duty (if you will) who backs them up? with everyone armed if teh shooting starts, there will me more armed man coming to help, not hiding cause they are unarmed of under armed.

plus things will break, often when you need them most. that includes AK's so just enough is never enough.

User avatar
crypto
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
Posts: 16635
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: City of Saint Louis

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by crypto » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:03 pm

He did ask for the *mimimum* not the *optimum*.

Yes, more armed people is probably better than fewer, but hes asking how many it takes to get the job done, not how many he'd have if money were no object.
MF'N TEAM LEADER

"Some people think that the best way to stop the leopard is to cut the horns off the gazelle. This, my friends, is insane."

Image
Image

User avatar
jor-el
* * * * *
Posts: 5263
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:42 am
Location: Watching over America

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by jor-el » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:55 pm

I don't think anyone on this board is going to give a thumbs up on only SOME of your group being armed with a rifle.

I still don't understand the scope of the likely threat here.

Are we talking a herd (I believe it was TWD that first applied that term to zombies) like what destroyed Herschel's farm? At least 200-500 yards wide? I don't remember if WA is a full auto state, but if a herd is considered scenario 1, there is no scenario 2.

Image

Image

Uh, what perimeter? At best you're talking a square 260 feet on a side.

Two examples of 1.5 acres. Assuming the house or compound is at the center you're maybe looking at a typical range to the property line of 50-75 yards tops. That distance could be covered with shotguns; no need for dedicated slug barrels, a box apiece of slugs to start, buckshot for the rest of the engagement. You would still want a rooftop fighting position for visibility.

At least two scoped rifles of .30-06 persuasion or ballistics, 4 AKs, the rest in shotguns and lots of ammo.
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.

User avatar
Maast
* * *
Posts: 555
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:26 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Sean of the Dead
Location: Gig Harbor (ish), WA

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Maast » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:41 am

I live in the pacific northwest, the lots are basically just hacked out of the forest with a road along one side, there aren't any direct sight lines from one corner to the opposite corner, As it stands right now I've got a half acre+ and the house area cleared in the middle. It slopes downward at a gentle-moderate slope southwards. I'm working on getting more of the lot cleared but I'm not there yet, most of my trees are BIG tall evergreen trees way over 75 feet - they're a PITA because I can't just drop them since they're tall enough to crush either the house, a neighbors house, or power lines. There is heavy underbrush under them, I've cleared a lot of that but there is a godawful amount yet to do.

A "sniper" in a central location wont work, again lack of sight lines unless they're in close - which is too bad because I also have a 375 H&H that I brought down from Alaska from when I used to go bear hunting. That damn thing is a long ranged freaking cannon. I don't casually shoot it because the bullets are $2.30 a round and the kick is so bad it hurts like hell after 6-8 rounds even with a recoil pad - I need to finally get around to having the barrel ported.

I've considered motion detectors, but again the lack of clear sight lines makes it difficult unless you get to the cleared area, and there's a zillion damn deer, raccoons, and other critters. I'll probably do it anyway just to let me know if there is something going on around the house.
My australian shepherd mix goes nuts and tears out through the doggie door to bark at something on a regular basis and my wifes roses and my edible ornamentals get chewed on almost daily so even though it's fenced in all the way around it doesn't seem to stop the bastards.

The hedge is to keep out any casual to semi-serious intruders, or if they're serious about going through they'll make enough noise that we'll know about it. BTW, berberis is a damn nasty thorny tough hedge plant, the line of big thick trees starts just behind the hedge.

We're standardizing on the AKM247 so we only have to have 1 pile of magazines that'll fit in any rifle, with the same ammo, and with identical rifles we have a source of spare parts. Same idea on the 357s.

For comms because of the boat I've already got several handheld marine VHF radios and a couple base stations, they use freqs that aren't used by standard walkie-talkies or CBs. (With a little bit of tweaking can be tuned so they're in the MURS band)

I'm planning for worst-case: a group of hungry raiders who've decided whats ours should be theirs. Even if it (hopefully) never gets to that it has to be planned for.

Cost is an issue, though I'm doing pretty good compared to most of my family I can't just throw money at the problem so I have to be smart about this, I've already spent more than you'd believe in LTS of just the food basics.

Some good ideas so far, thanks!
"Everybody thinks they're the hero of their own story"

User avatar
quazi
* * * * *
Posts: 4599
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:51 am
Location: AK

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by quazi » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:24 am

I would say two, with a definite preference for four.

My reasoning is that during a worst case scenario you're going to want to try to have someone on guard duty armed with a good defensive long gun all the time. Two people on guard duty seems a lot better. It would be harder for a group of raiders to get both of them right off the bat in a surprise raid. Especially if they're not standing right next to each other out in the open.

The reason for four and not just two is that if some of your people were going to have to leave your property for whatever reason two of them could carry rifles and you would still have two people with rifles at home.

Disclaimer: I have no experience or training in security.

User avatar
ashwednesday
* * * * *
Posts: 1048
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:25 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Dawn of the Dead remake, Shaun of the Dead
Location: Minnesota

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by ashwednesday » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:44 pm

Well-established military doctrine to answer this qvestion:

Officer #1: [repeating through megaphone] The one with the rifle shoots!

Officer #2: [handing out rifles] One out of two gets rifle.

Officer #1: The one without, follows him! When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!
"Flawlessly". Every time I see this word in a thread, I brace myself for bullshit. Around half the time I end up feeling vindicated.

User avatar
ineffableone
* * * * *
Posts: 3605
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:15 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Undead, Dead Alive/Braindead, Shaun of the Dead, Zombieland, 28 days, 28 Weeks Later, I Am Legend, Resident Evil franchise, Serenity (I would call Revers pretty damn zombie), Versus, Black Sheep
Location: Pac Northwest, East of the Cascades

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by ineffableone » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:24 pm

Since you have some random long guns "shotguns, couple .22 rifles, a 30-06" that will fill in where you don't have AKMs I would say the minimum would be the amount needed to have everyone armed beyond these random other cal guns. I count at least 5 (though you did not specify how many shotguns so just counting that as 2) 11-5= 6. So you should minimally get 6 AKMs. (if you have a lot more shotguns, I would not drop the AKM count bellow 4, you would want at least teams of 2 with the AKMs to be able to work together)

As for amount of ammo. I would say 1000 rounds per rifle is a comfortable number for me. Though minimally you could likely get away with ten 30 round mags each making it 300 rounds per rifle. Personally I would not go with anything less than 600 rounds per rifle which equals only 20 mags for a rifle.

I would also suggest you do stock up on ammo for those random cal guns too. Especially the .22s and 30-06 as they are quite useful as hunting weapons.

You might also want to look at reloading ammo. Not mandatory but it sure can make a difference if you stock up on powder, primers, bullets, etc and have the system up and working to get decent reloads. I know the 7.62×39 is not the easiest to set up reloading, but there is plenty of info out there on how to get started in it.
"Once a man has seen society's black underbelly, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend, like you do, that it doesn't exist"

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with ME!"


ZS Wiki ZS Acronyms

Gun Self Defense Counter

User avatar
emclean
* * * * *
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:31 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Fido
Zombieland
Location: NW Indiana

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by emclean » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:55 pm

crypto wrote:He did ask for the *mimimum* not the *optimum*.

Yes, more armed people is probably better than fewer, but hes asking how many it takes to get the job done, not how many he'd have if money were no object.
yep, the minimum, is everyone has a personal rifle at a minimum. so it can be zeroed to the shooter, if for no other reason than to improve the chances of the shooter hitting what they are aiming at. the AK's were posted as $449 each, SKS are running $300 today (J&G sales, or alantic firearms) which is still 3 SKS for the price of 2 AK's. (i haven't bought one in years, and was off on the current prices)

even arming everyone with mosin nagant's would be preferably to having to share guns with in your forces. (which are on special at cabelas for $140) regularly priced at $200.

SniperSarget
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by SniperSarget » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:51 pm

First of the 11 shooters, how many are good shots? You should make sure that every shooter can use any rifle that you give them. As stated what type of threat do you expect? I would go with 6. Like it was stated before, use what you have on hand. Shotguns for close range, riflrs for long and ak for large groups.If there is a threat to the us; the military bases would get hit first.Mc Chord/Fort Lewis 15 miles away.

User avatar
woodsghost
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 3830
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by woodsghost » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:00 pm

I won't claim to have "experience with perimeter security," so take what I say with a grain of salt.

There are a few things which I think remain unclear, and I'm not fishing for details, but I just want to lay them out so you can see how I would think about it.

Second, there are some good points already made, and I just want to highlight them.

First, the home: Is it secure against bullets? Is it brick? Or are there sandbags to create cover? If the home is not secure against bullets, I would look to that before considering armaments. Especially if every family already has it’s own hunting and HD guns.

But if the home is fortified, then I would consider the number of shooters and non-shooters, and match the AKs to the shooters.

People: If these are family units, that would imply some of the 11 are people who are not gun people, and some might be under 18 and rather inexperienced. I don't know how comfortable I would be throwing an AK into the hands of someone like that. After they had some training, sure, but I would not want to reenact WWII Soviet recruiting practices. Those folks would likely need some training in patrolling and small unit tactics on top of firearms training.

If you have say 4 serious shooters and 7 who know which end the bullets come out of but not much more, I would consider 4 AKs and a hodgepodge of SKSs and shotguns, depending on what people do well with. AKs would belong to a patrol/maneuver/security element, and the hodgepodge would belong to those in the home.

It sound like the folks in your 11 person have their own guns already, but find that buying their own AKs is out of the question and so you must buy them? Or are there family units which are looking at buying their own guns and bring them along if something crazy were to happen?

I just really think they should be told to pony up and buy some guns. Since they already have some guns, I feel they should sell some excess guns and buy the needed AKs. Honestly, I don't know anyone who cannot afford to put away $10-$20 a week till they have enough for an AK. At $20 a week, that is one AK every 23 weeks, or 2 AKs a year and a little extra for gear. Most of us just need to eat out a little less often, or skip the latte a few times a week, or downgrade the internet or cable or phone by one tier.

But if these are family units and not everyone has jobs and/or are under 18, that gets more complicated. But if there are 3 family units and they each put away $20 a week for a year, they can collect 6 AKs, plus the 2 you already have, puts you at 8 total. Another 23 weeks and you are at 11.

I have only seen pictures of WA State, and what I have seen makes me believe that for hunting, a full powered rifle is unnecessary. Shotguns and AKs would be fine. Or SKSs. Getting people to go hunting with their fighting rifle would be a wise decision. I assume it is legal, as I have read of folks hunting deer with AKs in WA. Just use appropriate bullets. The AK can go out to 300 yrds just fine, at least for man sized targets. For deer vitals, I would go till my groups got bigger than 7-8 inches. Depending on the quality of the AK and the ammo, that could be 400 yrds. So I don't know that a scoped bolt rifle is really necessary. But that is my opinion. Also, given that the property is only 1.5 acres, I really don't see the need for a DMR rifle.

So to summarize: consider your fortifications, consider your people, and consider their budgets.

I would work to put AKs in the hands of shooters, and would consider putting something else in the hands of non-shooters. I would then try to get your shooters out to practice together and go hunting together with the weapons you would use for defense. I would also work to expand the number of shooters if say, only 4 out of the 11 were serious shooters. I would consider selling unnecessary guns, as I view all guns as mere tools. Some folks have different attachments, so I understand if their feelings are different. Further, there is something to be said for using a gun one is familiar with. But we can learn to get familiar with new guns.

While there is probably an ideal number of rifles for security, I think we all have a need to consider the human elements and issues.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

User avatar
DarkAxel
* * * * *
Posts: 3868
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:25 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: The Evil Dead Series, Dawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, NOTLD, Resident Evil Series
Location: Jackson, KY
Contact:

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by DarkAxel » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:23 pm

I would suggest a minimum of three AKM rifles, with associated spare parts and magazines for each rifle. Two on guard at all times at fixed locations (to cover as much of your sightlines as possible) and one for a rover.

For ammo, though, you have to think MOAR! Firefights burn a LOT of ammo. 1000 rounds a rifle could last you two or three firefights, but it won't leave you any at all for training. If you are looking at an undetermined time only depending on what you have to protect yourself, I'd suggest a bare minimum of 10,000 rounds total.
vyadmirer wrote:Call me the paranoid type, but remember I'm on a post apocalyptic website prepared for zombies.
Fleet #: ZS 0180

Browncoat

Imma Fudd, and proud of it.

ZS Wiki

User avatar
Sworbeyegib
* * * * *
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:15 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: night of the living dead is what started it all for me
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Sworbeyegib » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:31 pm

The minimum should be what you can reasonably afford within your budget without reprioritizing any of your other needs and or expenses. Obviously, having a defensive long gun for every person you expect to come to your BOL would be ideal... But for now, just work within your and your family's budget.
**Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't**

Image

zero11010
* * *
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:24 pm

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by zero11010 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:19 pm

Maast wrote:My place is the BOL for my family, for various reasons we've decided to standardize on the AKM47 rifle as our main "security" rifle.

So, in your opinion whats the minimum number of security rifles our group would need?

As a follow on question, how much ammo per rifle?

My land is a 1.5 acre lot with a neighborhood road along 1 side of it. I'm growing a living wall of spiny berberis & rosa rugosa around 3 sides which should be grown out in 2-3 years.

Honestly, I have no idea what my actual threat environment would be. A major city is just ~15 miles away (Tacoma). but I'm (intentionally) in an obscure rural neighborhood that's hard to get to.

I've a few other guns I've accumulated over the years but it's a hodgepodge (shotguns, couple .22 rifles, a 30-06, 10mm, 357, etc).

Everybody is going to have their own 357 sidearm, mainly because they mostly already own them though I'd have preferred non-revolvers in 10mm, 9mm or .40.
What is it that you're preparing for? People have lived for generations in that area without ever needing to fire a weapon. When you ask about the minimum number of rifles a group of 11 should have, I can't help but think, a group of 11 people within a dozen miles of Tacoma Washington MUST have zero firearms. If you have a specific scenario you're planning for that may change things.

The commonly accepted number of rounds to store is 1,000 per individual. That's the basic foundation for ammo storage. But, this number really depends on whatever fictitious scenario you want to work with. If you're preparing for "err muh gerrdz! super bugs have wiped out most of teh worldz and me and a dozen buddies are going to repopulate the planet!" Well, 1,000 isn't going to cut it (we can ignore the requirement of 40 genetically different people to avoid inbreeding). For starters you would be facing frequent need to fire your weapons in defense. Next, you would want to make sure you have a number of rounds purely for practice (shooting being a perishable skill). You may want to figure 50 rounds per month (600 per year) per person as a really basic plan for keeping practiced with your weapons. That number may be offset by theoretical weapon usage for safety. But, in order for any of this to be useful you would need a defined period of time that you will be in place without resupply.

We need more info to help you with ammo count for certain. The ammo you need for 11 people for 3 months is different than the ammo you need for 11 people for a planned 6 year period of self reliance.

We need more info to give you meaningful help with your rifle count. As it was mentioned above, 2 rifles on watch at any one time is going to be somewhere between more than enough, and silly in modern day America. So, pick a scenario to plan for, then plan for that eventuality.

User avatar
Halfapint
* * * * *
Posts: 4030
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:41 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: all?
Location: Central Cascadia

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Halfapint » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:56 pm

Not being of a military background but I've studied military from ancient Romans to modern. I would say 5 AKs for general usage/defense would be good. But I think you could do with less if you have an assortment if shotguns. I'll explain below.

I think if you were to conduct patrols around your perimeter I would think you'd want 1 AK 2 shotguns. It sounds like generally the parameter is pretty closed off. AKs may not be the best for a patrol inside your land. For the patrols I'd run 3 people because if this is a major SHTF scenario and raiders/marauders are a major concern then 2 people could to easily be taken out. Not that 3 couldn't but it lends am extra set of eyes while out.

If you are going to go for more of a community idea where you're going to be going out on patrols around the neighborhood I'd go up to 4 persons, 3 AKs 1 shotgun. AKs are going to be better off in a scenario that you have better sight lines and the shotgun is good for opportunistic hunting while out and if course defensive/offensive purposes.

Now if you are generally going to have people just standing around the house watching for trouble, I think just the AKs will do. You've got the land cleared near your house, so you should have pretty good visibility for a little ways around. Then you might only need two people on duty and have 3 as back up.

With ammonia for the AKs I'd set aside 1k rounds per gun for defensive/offensive purposes as a minimum. Generally I think most scenarios will not require a fire fight. To break it down 1000 rounds is about 33 30rd mags for those AKs, with 5 guns you have 165 30rd mags at your disposal. Assuming good discipline and not mag dumping at the first sight of any bad guy, that's a lot of ammo to protect yourself. It could be better but 1k to start will work well.

Of course you're going to need practice ammo, but once you have the basics down having ammo available to have people keep those irons/optics sighted in and some trigger time just to keep things fresh. I go shooting about once a month, generally I shoot less then 200rds. I feel pretty confident in my shooting ability, others may need more, others less. And of course the more you shoot the better you get, until you hit a point where you're just building muscle memory (which a lot of people say you should be at at all times).

Hope this helps, much of what you ask we just don't have the info for. And would get quite personal like seeing the land, the surrounding area. I generally know the area you're talking about which kinda helps me. I have friends family that lived/live in the same area. Lots of places are quite heavily wooded. I like these thought games makes me plan out my BOL and my own plans better.
JeeperCreeper wrote:I like huge dicks, Halfapint, so you are OK in my book.... hahaha
Spazzy wrote:Tell ya what... If Zombies attack and the world ends I'll hook tandem toddlers to a plow if it means I'll be able to eat...

User avatar
Maast
* * *
Posts: 555
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:26 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Sean of the Dead
Location: Gig Harbor (ish), WA

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Maast » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:38 am

The entire group is family, I could potentially have 20 people show up but only 15 adults have said they'd fall back to my place if things fell apart.
If they actually get here or not is another matter since most of them are in the Portland/Salem Oregon area and its a 3.5 hour drive on a good day. I worry about that, a lot - I've told everybody to scoot immediately when [whatever] happens before the roads clog up.

Of that 15 there's only 11 I'd trust with a loaded weapon in their hands. Of that 11 four are ex-military, 6 of us shoot holes in the ecology on a regular basis (hunters or tin can plinkers).

So that means there are 7 who don't regularly handle with firearms but all of them have shot at least a couple times, I'm unsure exactly what firearms everybody has but they're all hunting-type long guns with a couple skeet shooters in there. Handguns are a hodgepodge but mainly 357s.

IMO shotguns in a firefight are a bad idea unless you have a drum fed weapon. Not enough ammo capacity and it takes too damn long to reload. They're great for singleton home defense where you're only pulling the trigger a few times at most but if I was facing a group I know I'd want a magazine fed weapon in hand. Yes, I know there are magazine fed shotguns, extremely cool but they still have a limited ammo capacity. The AK is a better platform for group defense.

As far as bulletproofing the house, the only thing I can really do is add a gravel wall to the exterior using 2x4s and plywood, I have lots and lots of gravel available. I'll need more plywood to do this though, it's on the list. I have a few ideas for windows too.

My planned threat environment is for worst case: A group of hungry armed raiders during a long term national SHTF. I don't know if it'll ever get that bad but that's what I'm using for planning purposes. Prepare for the worst and be happy if it doesn't happen.
"Everybody thinks they're the hero of their own story"

User avatar
Mikeyboy
* * * * *
Posts: 2265
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 8:00 am

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by Mikeyboy » Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:49 am

Slapping an AK-47 into the hands of a shooter who is unfamiliar with the gun or a shooter that is a poor fit to the AK will do more harm than good. Honestly I am a poor fit for an AK. I don't own an AK and I haven't shoot one in over a decade, but I noticed as I got older my eyesight is screwing up my aim with rifle rear sights that are on the barrel, like Buckhorn sights on a 10/22, a levergun, or an AK. I need ghost rings, peep sights, a big bright front post, or some sort of optics and that is hard to do with an AK, especially if you don't have a range to sight in. You only have 1.5 acres and things look pretty flat so it will be hard to create a rifle range for all 11 of your shooters to become decently proficient with their new weapons. I shoot a lot, and I am handy and accurate at long distances with "my rifles", but giving me a stock AK for anything beyond close quarters work is almost a waste. If I had my own AK and had time to trick it out my way (I'm thinking a Tech sight rear peep sight and a XS tritium front post) I would split hair with the thing at 100 yards or more.

I still think you are only good with a firearm that you used and trained with somewhat regularly. Your shooters should come with whatever flavor of gun they are use to using. If you want to build a backup arsenal for your family members, you got to go with their strengths and weaknesses.

User avatar
woodsghost
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 3830
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: How many rifles for a group with 11 shooters.

Post by woodsghost » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:10 am

These are just my thoughts, but it sounds to me like "6" is your current optimum number. If some of your "ex-mil" are not active shooters putting holes in the ecology right now, they could maybe be brought up to speed, now, and increase your number of shooters.

People who have not been "trained" on the AK platform don't do so hot with it. I have had former-mil friends pick up an AK and it is comical how they react to it and fumble with it. Once they are shown what to do and do it a bunch, they are fine. But AR skills do not quickly transfer to the AK. People need a little assistance. I don't know if long time hunters would be quick or not.

I really think your number of AKs is going to equal the number of people willing to buy their own rifle and get training with it. After that, if you have extra cash, I'd add enough to round out your "active shooters" and train them up. After that, I'd pick up enough for any ex-mil who are *not* active shooters, and any enthusiastic family members who want to learn.

I'd like to know what you and others think of buying enough sandbags or similar to fill with dirt or sand and make a ring 4 ft high around the exterior of the house. I do like the sound of "a ring of gravel" though. Just as long as it was a proven thickness.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

Post Reply

Return to “General Firearms Discussion”