Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

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Doctorr Fabulous
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:30 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
0122358 wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:This letter is gonna get ATF sued, hard. How does holding something differently redesign it?
So that will be if they do in fact end up suing, that three lawsuits of some sorts?
I don't keep track. There's the MG suit, I think Sig is still suing over the muzzlebrake/baffle stack. There needs to be a lawsuit over this one, because while I may be a weasely motherfucker, trying to say that intent or how one holds a firearm counts as redesigning/remanufacturing is up there with shoestring machineguns.
Exactly. Besides, handguns are designed to be "held in one hand," so technically, holding it with two hands would be holding it differently, ie redesigning it. (To what, exactly, I don't know.)
AoW. An AoW is a pistol with a forward grip not designed to be fired from the shoulder with a barrel shorter than 16" and an overall length shorter than 26".

Whoops. ATF dun fucked up and made ever ISPC/USPA gun with a 'gas pedal' an AoW.
AS556 wrote:Though I agree with the logic here, and disagree with the ATFs "logic", that doesn't change their stance and taking it with a grain of salt is about as wise as ignoring the NFA laws entirely. Until this is overturned they can, and will, prosecute you given the opportunity. I wouldn't touch this shit with a ten foot pole. YMMV.
Well I'll be sure I don't shoulder my Sig Brace. Time to send a letter about a crutch tip, and then an A2 buffer tube with the rear threading gone, and then one about stippling the front of my Glock.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by eeb » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:34 pm

Not sure how that means the ATF fucked up, just means there are a metric shit-ton of unregistered AoWs floating around. (Sarcasm)
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:36 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:AoW. An AoW is a pistol with a forward grip not designed to be fired from the shoulder with a barrel shorter than 16" and an overall length shorter than 26".

Whoops. ATF dun fucked up and made ever ISPC/USPA gun with a 'gas pedal' an AoW.
Interesting. Thanks. :)
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by AS556 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:40 pm

Great idea about the letter

As far as not shouldering your brace, people are gonna do what they're gonna do. I'm certainly not going to commit a federal crime on principle, though. Yeah, its a stupid law. Lots of laws are stupid. Doesn't mean I'm going to intentionally break them just to flip .gov the figurative bird.

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by chills1994 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:03 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:AoW. An AoW is a pistol with a forward grip not designed to be fired from the shoulder with a barrel shorter than 16" and an overall length shorter than 26".

Whoops. ATF dun fucked up and made ever ISPC/USPA gun with a 'gas pedal' an AoW.
Interesting. Thanks. :)
Just for everybody who doesn't know what a "gas pedal" is:

on an Open division gun:

Image

on a Limited Division gun:

Image

Whether that actually constitutes a "grip" as in something like a vertical fore grip, in my opinion, would be a stretch.

It is a place to rest your weak hand (support hand) thumb. If any USPSA gunsmith or manufacturer actually submitted a letter asking for thumb rest/gas pedal clarification, I have no idea.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by eeb » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:37 pm

Thank you. I'd say that's a more legitimate definition of "redesigning", though hopefully they'll leave it alone, and some of these lawsuits bear fruit to draw more scrutiny on their overreaches of power.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:25 am

Per ATF's letter to Eric Lemoine, attaching a VFG means the pistol is no longer designed to be fired with a single hand, and is classified an AoW. Attaching a gas pedal, stippling the frame to support the off-hand, attaching an AFG, or mounting a forestock (Contender pistols and mare's leg pistols) would also seem to indicate that the pistol is no longer designed to be fired with one hand, ergo, AoW.

As I said, ATF dug a big nasty hole this time.

Letter: http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-s ... letter.jpg
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by eeb » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:05 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Per ATF's letter to Eric Lemoine, attaching a VFG means the pistol is no longer designed to be fired with a single hand, and is classified an AoW. Attaching a gas pedal, stippling the frame to support the off-hand, attaching an AFG, or mounting a forestock (Contender pistols and mare's leg pistols) would also seem to indicate that the pistol is no longer designed to be fired with one hand, ergo, AoW.

As I said, ATF dug a big nasty hole this time.

Letter: http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-s ... letter.jpg
While I agree with you on this, both you and I are thinking about this and applying the law in a consistent manner. The ATF doesn't do that. Take VFGs vs. AFGs. They're both "grips", but one means the gun is meant to be operated with both hands, and the other doesn't? Obviously, they can and will change their mind's at a moment's notice (Couple weeks ago, somebody on another board challenged me to provide citation on that fact. Derp! Here ya go!), but even then inconsistencies remain.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:02 pm

AS556 wrote:Great idea about the letter
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by eeb » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:37 pm

I bet the folks working the ATF booth at the SHOT show are getting an ear full.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:33 pm

I need to send ATF a letter asking them to define "shoulder" while I'm at it.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:57 pm

Double post:snakegun porn.

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by White Bear » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:05 pm

eeb wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Per ATF's letter to Eric Lemoine, attaching a VFG means the pistol is no longer designed to be fired with a single hand, and is classified an AoW. Attaching a gas pedal, stippling the frame to support the off-hand, attaching an AFG, or mounting a forestock (Contender pistols and mare's leg pistols) would also seem to indicate that the pistol is no longer designed to be fired with one hand, ergo, AoW.

As I said, ATF dug a big nasty hole this time.

Letter: http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-s ... letter.jpg
While I agree with you on this, both you and I are thinking about this and applying the law in a consistent manner. The ATF doesn't do that. Take VFGs vs. AFGs. They're both "grips", but one means the gun is meant to be operated with both hands, and the other doesn't? Obviously, they can and will change their mind's at a moment's notice (Couple weeks ago, somebody on another board challenged me to provide citation on that fact. Derp! Here ya go!), but even then inconsistencies remain.
It sure does make it difficult for honest citizens to obey the laws when unelected officials can change their opinions and interpretations of what is and isn't legal at will.
At least we can rest easily at night knowing criminal elements have now been rendered incapable of shouldering a pistol brace.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by quazi » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:10 pm

I figured I'd repost this question here since this thread gets the most eyeballs.

Glock put the info for their MOS line up on their website. http://us.glock.com/mos

One of the adapter plates it will come with is for the Leupold DeltaPoint. Cabelas has the Leupold DeltaPoint on sale right now. I also have A Cabelas gift card that is getting pretty old.

The DeltaPoint comes with a "cross slot" mount or a "all mounts" kit for considerably more. Would it be fine to just go with the "cross slot" mount on the MOS pistols? I would assume that the optic would mount directly to the Glock plate without any additional mount needed, but I figured I'd better make sure before spending that kind of money.

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:29 am

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by AS556 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 pm

Looks like Sig is preparing to take BATFE to court. Interesting to see how this plays out.

If they win I'm building a 6" 9mm AR pistol with a Glock mag lower and brace.

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by brothaman » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:50 am

I thought there was a "what's it work thread/" stickied?

Any whooo.. I got a buddy selling a pre-tapco fucked Chicom SKS. I know shit all about these. Comes with a non-matching wood stock and 1 steel 30 rd mag. Condition is very nice. It shoots and cycles with our a hitch. This is a friend and hate to cut hard him hard on the price (as is my usual method). Can someone suggest me a fair, sold between friends price range? $200-$225 maybe?
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by 0122358 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:52 am

brothaman wrote:I thought there was a "what's it work thread/" stickied?

Any whooo.. I got a buddy selling a pre-tapco fucked Chicom SKS. I know shit all about these. Comes with a non-matching wood stock and 1 steel 30 rd mag. Condition is very nice. It shoots and cycles with our a hitch. This is a friend and hate to cut hard him hard on the price (as is my usual method). Can someone suggest me a fair, sold between friends price range? $200-$225 maybe?
As far as I know...200-250 would be a steal.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by 0122358 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:18 pm

Also...does anyone have any more info on the PSA AK that will be introduced later? I mean I'm excited about Kalash coming to the land of the free...but I read where it will be available for about 600. Anything else?
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by brothaman » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:53 pm

I think the PSA-47 is an AR format. If they're doing an AK format gun, then I wantz.

Or is a called AR-47?? can't look it up at work behind the DMZ
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by brothaman » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:06 pm

Well POOP! On Facebook it shows a PSA AK! Nice!
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:38 pm

Seems like almost everyone is bringing out an AK right now.

I'd love to be able to attend Shot Show one of these years, but I'm not in the gun industry and can only dream of attending.

Closest to Shot Show I'm probably going to be able to get to is a really big gun show. :(

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by brothaman » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:28 am

I may grab an AK when all the non Russian stuff floods the market. Right now, my only x39 need is the ability to shoot x39. But, if I were to get myself an AK I'd wait for a PSA just 'cuz it close to home.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:26 am

Does anyone else hear...cavarly music?



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