Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by RickOShea » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:28 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
RickOShea wrote:Didn't Nimdabew have all kinds of problems with a Gen 4 G19?

IIRC, he threw all kinds of Apex and other aftermarket parts at it, but still ended-up having to send it back to Glock.
I don't even remember for sure what kind of gun that was now. Been awhile.

For some reason I want to say that it was an M&P that he had.
No, it was a G19 (can't remember if it was 3 or 4, and those old gun chat threads are gone):

nimdabew wrote:The gun is going back to Glock. They are sending me a shipping label right now and then it will be in their hands to see if they can fix it or not.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:49 pm

RickOShea wrote:No, it was a G19 (can't remember if it was 3 or 4, and those old gun chat threads are gone):
nimdabew wrote:The gun is going back to Glock. They are sending me a shipping label right now and then it will be in their hands to see if they can fix it or not.
http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... &t=91149&p
That sucks, lot of good info in those threads. Oh well.

I just remember later on he posted a pic with an M&P and some suppressor and thought that it was the same gun and that he finally got it going. It's been long enough now where I'd take your word on it over my memory of a thread from a couple years back.

You remember if he ever got it running?
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Redeyes » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:56 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
Redeyes wrote:It was a big problem for 3rd and 4th gens for about a year I think. Now their stuff works again. That and the bad trigger on early M&Ps put Apex Tactical on the map and made them a bunch of money. Some big name guys still think Apex extractors for Glocks are a good upgrade. Did it get blown out of proportion? Of course it did. But it was a real problem for a time. Didn't help that early on when you called Glock about the problem some of the guys on the phone tried to blame it on the ammo you were using. I know. I called about my new 3rd gen that was jamming every three rounds. Got told that I shouldn't be using 115 grain 9mm. Sent Apex some money for an extractor and used the different Glock factory parts they recommended and haven't had any malfunctions since, except for one light primer strike after most of a K of Wolf with no cleaning. Could have just been a harder than normal primer or the primer was set in too far. I went on to fire a couple hundred more rounds with no issues before I cleaned it.

If you do manage to get one of the problem guns that may still be floating around in the used market, don't panic. If you go with Glock factory parts the fix is like $20 and easily done using Youtube videos for a reference.

ETA My bad, more like $30. You could probably call Glock and get it done for free and a free shipping label if you are a bit insistent. Wouldn't hurt to try anyway.
Your experience with the problems on 4th Gen Glocks is one of the few online I'd trust. You're a reliable source. So if you're saying that then I believe you. Others I've seen online all tended to fall into the 2nd cousins college roommate type stuff. Never ran across anyone in person yet that had an issue though and everyone I know just about owns a 3rd and/or a 4th Gen Glock. Luck of the draw I guess.

Good to know even if someone does wind up with one of the lemons that there's something that they can do about it on their own. So is it just one of the Apex extractors or does the recoil spring assembly need to be replaced as well?
Thanks man, I appreciate the kind words. I went with an Apex extractor because they got them out before Glock did. Glock now makes a decent extractor. The only parts you should need are the current OEM extractor for your model of pistol and a 30274 ejector for 3rd Gens and the current OEM for 4th Gens. Please understand that this info is only the best I was able to put together. Some pistols from that time never developed problems. Some couldn't be fixed. I believe this will work for most of the pistols though.

ETA, If you should decide to go the Apex route the instructions are on their webpage, in the information section after you click on the link for their extractors. For 3rd gens they recommend: 1. their extractor and extractor spring, 2. a SP01176 spring loaded bearing, 3. a 30274 ejector. For 4th gens it is exactly the same except they want you to use their 4th gen extractor and extractor spring. Expect to pay $100 total for parts and shipping including the SPO1176 bearing and the 30274 ejector which you will have to purchase elsewhere as Apex does not stock them. I did just as Apex suggested and my pistol is running very well. Many others have used the updated Glock parts and they have had no issues.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:36 pm

Redeyes wrote:
Browning 35 wrote:
Redeyes wrote:It was a big problem for 3rd and 4th gens for about a year I think. Now their stuff works again. That and the bad trigger on early M&Ps put Apex Tactical on the map and made them a bunch of money. Some big name guys still think Apex extractors for Glocks are a good upgrade. Did it get blown out of proportion? Of course it did. But it was a real problem for a time. Didn't help that early on when you called Glock about the problem some of the guys on the phone tried to blame it on the ammo you were using. I know. I called about my new 3rd gen that was jamming every three rounds. Got told that I shouldn't be using 115 grain 9mm. Sent Apex some money for an extractor and used the different Glock factory parts they recommended and haven't had any malfunctions since, except for one light primer strike after most of a K of Wolf with no cleaning. Could have just been a harder than normal primer or the primer was set in too far. I went on to fire a couple hundred more rounds with no issues before I cleaned it.

If you do manage to get one of the problem guns that may still be floating around in the used market, don't panic. If you go with Glock factory parts the fix is like $20 and easily done using Youtube videos for a reference.

ETA My bad, more like $30. You could probably call Glock and get it done for free and a free shipping label if you are a bit insistent. Wouldn't hurt to try anyway.
Your experience with the problems on 4th Gen Glocks is one of the few online I'd trust. You're a reliable source. So if you're saying that then I believe you. Others I've seen online all tended to fall into the 2nd cousins college roommate type stuff. Never ran across anyone in person yet that had an issue though and everyone I know just about owns a 3rd and/or a 4th Gen Glock. Luck of the draw I guess.

Good to know even if someone does wind up with one of the lemons that there's something that they can do about it on their own. So is it just one of the Apex extractors or does the recoil spring assembly need to be replaced as well?
Thanks man, I appreciate the kind words. I went with an Apex extractor because they got them out before Glock did. Glock now makes a decent extractor. The only parts you should need are the current OEM extractor for your model of pistol and a 30274 ejector for 3rd Gens and the current OEM for 4th Gens. Please understand that this info is only the best I was able to put together. Some pistols from that time never developed problems. Some couldn't be fixed. I believe this will work for most of the pistols though.
Cool, thanks. I was more asking for future reference just in case I or someone I know picks up one of the lemons. Could happen, lemons tend to get passed around on the used market as people are in a hurry to off-load them. If more people know how to fix them then maybe the buck will stop there and they'll quit trying to pass along the turd for the next guy to take a bite so that they can get their money out of it.

*Knock on wood* the Glock 2nd, 3rd and 4th Gen pistols I have right now all run great. The 4th Gen 17 I bought at the time period right at the height when all this stuff was happening, two friends bought 4th Gen 19's, one bought a 17 like mine, I bought that 3rd Gen 20SF awhile later, another range buddy bought a 3rd Gen 21 (I think that one's fullsize) and then 3 other guys at my work bought a mismatch of Glocks 3rd and 4th gen (two 19's and a G23 .40 4th Gen) through that Blue gun program and all were without issue. :Shrug

So after hearing all that on the web and then buying and shooting all those new guns in such a short period of time we were like "This is a bunch of bullshit". We were laughing at each other for being all worried. At any rate maybe it was a little more widespread than I originally thought, but to hear it on the web pigs were flying and Glock was never to be trusted again. So I still think that it got blown out of proportion in some circles. Glad you got yours running though.

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Last edited by Browning 35 on Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:41 pm

I'm going NIB when I get my Glock 21 and hopefully I'll have a properly functioning pistol. Really the only used guns I've purchased have been milsurps and both of them have functioned pretty well (well, minus an issue I had with my SKS, but that's fixed now).

All else fails, I snag an XD or XDM .45 and go from there.

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Rednex » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:32 pm

I know the hunting season is coming up and people may be doing some upgrading but WTH i cant find a 12 g rifled barrel with fiber optic sights for a Mossberg 500 anyplace.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:11 pm

Rednex wrote:I know the hunting season is coming up and people may be doing some upgrading but WTH i cant find a 12 g rifled barrel with fiber optic sights for a Mossberg 500 anyplace.
You try Cabela's yet ?

I checked the newest Shooter's catalog they put out and it lists rifled 500 barrels. Not sure if they have fiber optic sights or not, though.

ETA: Anyone know when MagPul plans to release the steel reinforced AK Pmags ?

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Dave_M » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:18 pm

eh, I'd call this firearms, 'related'. It's a short piece about logistics in difficult environments. I have a much larger gun porn piece hitting later this week too

http://www.recoilweb.com/physical-secur ... 49679.html
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by RickOShea » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:11 pm

Trebor's Examiner article: "The guns of Red Dawn 30 years later".


http://www.examiner.com/article/the-gun ... ears-later


*I always wondered whatever happened to all of Stembridge's guns after they closed shop.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Towanda » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:44 pm

So, in my extremely slow quest to de-Mad-Maxify my Mossberg, I think I have found the stock I want to put on it. Anybody have experience with ATI's Akita Adjustable Stock?
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Dave_M » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:23 pm

Because I have to put a SOCOM on everything

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by TheLastOne » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:41 pm

Looks good. How much weight did that drop? Does it still fold?
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Dave_M » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:43 pm

TheLastOne wrote:Looks good. How much weight did that drop? Does it still fold?
No idea on weight
No folding capability with the current stock adapter unless I pickup a LAW Tactical folding mech (which adds some LOP) or an ACE ARRB-C adapter (meant for a Sig 556).

If I went with the ACE ARRB-C I could put an ACE folding mech and stock on there with that setup as well. No idea if you'd be able to use it folded though. Now if I could get my grubbies on an NEA compact carbine stock... need one to check for fitment issues and they are pretty expensive (partly because they come with their own proprietary spring/BCG combo... none of which I'd use for this, obviously so that's just more money wasted).
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by TheLastOne » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:19 am

The NEA would make me want to build a sbr. I'm not too keen on folding stocks, but that thing makes a rifle caliber pdw make sense to me for some reason.

Your scar looks practical and fun as hell.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:32 am

I'd love to have an NEA but good luck. Years long waiting list, ATF form to import, and no one can say with authority the thing works. I have yet to see the troy version in the wild which tells me something. But after all that, I'd buy one in a hot minute. :lol:
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:24 am

Towanda wrote:So, in my extremely slow quest to de-Mad-Maxify my Mossberg, I think I have found the stock I want to put on it. Anybody have experience with ATI's Akita Adjustable Stock?
I have some experience with ATI, but not with that particular stock. ATI seriously isn't that good. I had an SKS that I bought about 10 years ago that came with a stock from ATI and it was made out of some cheap plastic rather than anything worth owning. I replaced it with an OEM wood stock I bought for $10 out of a water barrel in a local Gunstore.

Personally if you're going to spend that sort of coin on a stock I'd go with something from Speedfeed rather than ATI. They have some non-tacticool options.

That's my only experience with them. Maybe they got better. Not exactly extensive experience, but you weren't getting any responses.
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Dave_M » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:57 am

The problem I've heard from some running the NEA is that since there's a proprietary BCG and spring you can't tune that end of your system. For example, one was running a Springco Blue spring, H2 buffer, and an LMT enhanced BCG to optimize dwell time and as soon as he had an NEA that all went out the window. So all work had to be done on the front end via gas regulation. However, taking the rear end out of the equation completely seems very limiting, especially if you already have a configuration you like. Course' with the SCAR none of that comes into play since the stock has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:27 am

Yeah, that's why it give me great pause apart from the other issues. Tuning the back end is much easier than messing with port sizes or tunable gas blocks. I have a 7.5" VooDoo upper that runs like a scalded ape. Now, messing with the tuning that I've done to it may make it straight pull bolt action by adding that stock. Defeats the purpose of a PDW to make it unreliable.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by TheLastOne » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:35 am

They show up on gunbroker for $300+
Don't need it that bad :clownshoes:
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Dave_M » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:06 pm

Gingerbread Man wrote:Yeah, that's why it give me great pause apart from the other issues. Tuning the back end is much easier than messing with port sizes or tunable gas blocks. I have a 7.5" VooDoo upper that runs like a scalded ape. Now, messing with the tuning that I've done to it may make it straight pull bolt action by adding that stock. Defeats the purpose of a PDW to make it unreliable.

I'd argue that messing with port sizes or tunable gas blocks (especially quick-adjust over incremental tool adjustment) actually addresses the real issues rather than mitigating the symptoms. However, not everything can always be done with the front end of the rifle and indeed it can be more time consuming and challenging because it requires more tools and knowledge. I always strive for a 3-position (normal, suppressed, adverse), using the same rear setup whenever possible--I guess too many years of, 'H2 buffer with NATO ammo and Car buffer with Wolf ammo and......' took its toll.

That said, even with an adjustable block the back end needs to be balanced as well. It doesn't matter how high or low the gas is if the return reciprocal mass is insufficient for complete cycling. Either way, it's not impossible to end up with a rifle with a very limited envelope of reliably performing ammunition (which is perfectly fine in a competition rifle, which only has to run X ammo for Y number of rounds during Z time period but not so much for a fighting gun).

Back to the stock... I don't even know if it'll even fit on the SCAR due to dimensional issues (or if the shell deflector will get in the way or or or). Need to find someone locally with one so I can try it out.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by RickOShea » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:22 pm

Towanda wrote:So, in my extremely slow quest to de-Mad-Maxify my Mossberg, I think I have found the stock I want to put on it. Anybody have experience with ATI's Akita Adjustable Stock?
If you want something a little shorter, you could try the Hogue with the 12" length-of-pull:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/169170 ... uctFinding

I put one on Mom's Mossy 500 .410 (had to trim it up a little bit to fit the smaller .410 frame) and she liked it a lot better than the factory 13" bantam stock that came on it.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Vicarious_Lee » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:14 pm

Dave_M wrote:eh, I'd call this firearms, 'related'. It's a short piece about logistics in difficult environments. I have a much larger gun porn piece hitting later this week too

http://www.recoilweb.com/physical-secur ... 49679.html
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:25 pm

Dave_M wrote:I'd argue that messing with port sizes or tunable gas blocks (especially quick-adjust over incremental tool adjustment) actually addresses the real issues rather than mitigating the symptoms.
It does. But I'm a realist, people just aren't going to bust out a drill press, rip their front end apart and start drilling let alone drop a honey on an adjustable gas block when you can get a 99% reliable rifle by messin' with the back end. I mean can you imagine the gas ports if people started doing that. I'm thinking Dremel fluting....

However, not everything can always be done with the front end of the rifle and indeed it can be more time consuming and challenging because it requires more tools and knowledge. I always strive for a 3-position (normal, suppressed, adverse), using the same rear setup whenever possible--I guess too many years of, 'H2 buffer with NATO ammo and Car buffer with Wolf ammo and......' took its toll.

I'm not sure it has as many manufacturers are getting the gas port size right with regards to the gas system length from the factory. I know Colt, FN and a couple of other put time/effort into it. Adjustable gas blocks are nice but 99% of shooters will never run that to need one or own suppressors. So for folks with marginal guns that ask me to get them running I stick with the easy stuff. So far, I've got them up and running Wolf and suppressors without issue.


That said, even with an adjustable block the back end needs to be balanced as well. It doesn't matter how high or low the gas is if the return reciprocal mass is insufficient for complete cycling. Either way, it's not impossible to end up with a rifle with a very limited envelope of reliably performing ammunition (which is perfectly fine in a competition rifle, which only has to run X ammo for Y number of rounds during Z time period but not so much for a fighting gun).
Yeah, I try to get them running with brass and Wolf. Once I achieve that, I'm leaving them alone. My guns run with my suppressors and I'm good with that. I've given up trying to get Tula to run in guns, dirty and inconsistent loads. Junk ammo.
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Re: Firearms Chat Part 2: Bullpups cause all the rage!

Post by RickOShea » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:49 pm

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