A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this pls

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A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this pls

Post by the_klenzer » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:38 pm

This is a story of how "they'd never come take my guns"... comes shockingly true in Canada last night.

I haven't posted much in the last couple years as getting heavily involved in the Canadian firearms community has taken me away from ZS. However, I came back on to share something that happened last night in Canada with you. It doesn't involve hockey, beer or beaver, it involves a great rifle from Swiss Arms, and how the police used it to turn thousands of Canadians overnight into criminals.

Swiss Arms rifles have been sold in Canada for about 12-15 years (my numbers may be off on some of these) and were deemed non-restricted by the RCMP, so you could take it anywhere (except short barreled restricted versions, which you needed registration/paperwork for). Well built, nice rifle, loved by all of us... and about $3000-$4000 a pop for the average one.

All is rosy until recently, someone suggests to the RCMP (this is a REALLY long story with lots of politics, money and revenge involved, not that relevant so I'll skip it) that this is actually a variant of the PROHIBITED Sig550. The RCMP (who first decided it was non-restricted years ago and forgot about it) changes their minds, and agrees! And as of last night re-classifies all variants of this rifle as prohibited. They state that all citizens owning this gun must turn them in to be destroyed WITHOUT COMPENSATION.

What does this mean to gun lovin' Joe Average Canuck who owns one?
Best case scenario
-turn in gun, lose $3000-$4000 and have it destroyed.

Worst case scenario
-hide gun... become a criminal (technically as of last night, you already are) with a prison sentence being the likely outcome of a possession of a prohib charge should it ever be found.

For owners of restricted/papered Swiss Arms, there is no choice but to turn them in, as the RCMP know where they live, so the alternative is to have the RCMP come to your house and arrest you, seize ALL your firearms, lose your license, and go to jail.

So... how does this affect you, our American friends? Well it doesn't. At least not this day, not this year... This is just a story about how it CAN happen... and how quickly. Note that this story all began when the transfer of power over governing firearms was given to the police by the government... There's a lesson in that.

While I'm not a Swiss Arms owner (mostly ARs and VZ58s) I can't help but want to support their cause. This has a more detailed overview of the s--tstorm and how it happened (although it omits some of the good drama) http://www.theshootingcentre.com/sans-overview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please share this story if you feel it's important to the firearms owners in your community.
Thanks!
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Murphman » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:19 pm

That is terrible.

i can;t help but think...what are the laws governing exporting thazt gun to the US, or any other country? Can you do an over the counter sale with a US business that is already licensed to import to the US from Canada, and at least get some recompense?

Isn't there any way to challenge the decision, at least for review, to give your citizens the chance to comply, without losing 100% of their investment?
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by ineffableone » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:26 pm

Murphman wrote:That is terrible.

i can;t help but think...what are the laws governing exporting thazt gun to the US, or any other country? Can you do an over the counter sale with a US business that is already licensed to import to the US from Canada, and at least get some recompense?

Isn't there any way to challenge the decision, at least for review, to give your citizens the chance to comply, without losing 100% of their investment?
I would also say there should be a way to challenge the decision. It seems like there would be some precedent of at least giving people time to sell off their guns before having to turn them in. Not to mention compensating the gun owners at least something.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by 91Eunozs » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:58 pm

Damn. That's frustrating as hell and I'm not even Canadian...many Canadian friends and colleagues from my time in a NATO HQ and I'm sure they're not happy with this. Gonna shoot out some IMs...

Thank God no one in a position of authority on this side of the border would ever selectively enforce, or arbitrarily change law based on how it benefits them. :roll:
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by azrael99 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:33 pm

this it total bull feces.

they can't make such drastic moves. we are already restricted and they want to choke us even more.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Darkhunter » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:36 pm

Not particularly well versed in what is going on in Connecticut but aren't they threatening to go door to door in that state and seize certain firearms?

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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Kommander » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:48 am

The ATF has done things like this in the past but never anything quite this severe. There are concerns that the ATF may one day decide that Saiga shotguns are destructive devices as they have with other mag fed semiautomatic shotguns but at the moment it's all baseless speculation.

As for CT the government estimates that about 90% of the rifles and mags that were supposed to be registered have not been and the authorities are somewhat at a loss as to what to do about it.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by ROCK6 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:07 am

Kommander wrote:The ATF has done things like this in the past but never anything quite this severe. There are concerns that the ATF may one day decide that Saiga shotguns are destructive devices as they have with other mag fed semiautomatic shotguns but at the moment it's all baseless speculation.

As for CT the government estimates that about 90% of the rifles and mags that were supposed to be registered have not been and the authorities are somewhat at a loss as to what to do about it.
This is my concern and quite probable. A great technique would be to up the tax for "destructive" devices to several thousand dollars and then the BATFE votes certain firearms on the list; if you don't register (and pay the outrageous tax) or turn them in, you're a criminal. Political gumbies will continue to bend under pressure and the list of acceptable 2A firearms quickly narrows. Once we are forced into registration, the end will be near without serious action.

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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Darkhunter » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:50 pm

I've been hearing from coworkers that now Missouri is considering what Connecticut has done.

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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by the_klenzer » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:56 pm

It's gotten worse. The RCMP has classified most CZ858 built VZ58s in Canada as prohibited.

This has now made thousands, if not tens of thousands, more Canadians criminals.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by azrael99 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:58 pm

this was the first banned gun

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let see when will it be the last banned gun
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Das Sheep » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:59 pm

Is there a reason they are suddenly banning all these guns?

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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by crypto » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:03 pm

Darkhunter wrote:I've been hearing from coworkers that now Missouri is considering what Connecticut has done.
Missouri? I think you heard wrong. The state house just passed a bill nullifying all federal gun control within the state going back to the national firearms act.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:05 pm

How do they plan on enforcing the new ruling? I was under the (mis?)understanding that most of the registry of (then) unrestricted arms had been destroyed.

(Not advocating anything that could be considered illegal, but wow, without any time to appeal or anything, that's troubling. And I suppose not advocating illegal activities is a moot point if the government decides overnight that you are a criminal anyway. How do you unscrew that lightbulb?)
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by daydreamer » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:10 pm

Wow, just wow. This is what I fear happening in America. Turn it in or you're a felon.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Bearcat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:48 pm

The story I heard was that vz858s before a certain year are grandfathered in or at least vz's after a certain year were blocked from importation.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by the_klenzer » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:58 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:How do they plan on enforcing the new ruling? I was under the (mis?)understanding that most of the registry of (then) unrestricted arms had been destroyed.
This is correct, they don't have (that we know of) a record of the non-restricted firearms any more (thankfully). However, that leaves a pretty tough choice for people who own them... turn them in or...
(Not advocating anything that could be considered illegal, but wow, without any time to appeal or anything, that's troubling. And I suppose not advocating illegal activities is a moot point if the government decides overnight that you are a criminal anyway. How do you unscrew that lightbulb?)
I don't know what most Canadians are going to do, but we're going to put up one mofo of a fight. Unless the dust settles I'm going to give my now prohibited rifles to a friend of mine in the industry who has a prohib license.

Bearcat, there are only 500 CZ858s imported before the cut off for prohibs.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Black Sheep » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:24 pm

Campaign hard.

The law in my country restricts ownership of "Military Style Semi Automatic" firearms. One part of the definition is any semi auto rifle with a "free standing pistol grip". A guy lost his mind and shot a cop and his neighbour, then himself with an arsenal that included a couple of MSSA FALS, that he owned illegally as his licence had been revoked. So the cops announced that from now on all semi auto rifles with dragunov and thumbhole stocks were now restricted MSSA's. So all licensed firearms owners with target and dragunov stocked semi autos were stuck with near worthless guns they could only sell to the small number of people with the much harder to get restricted licence. We campaigned and won, a judge ruled the cops were blatantly flouting the law.

The wording helped us, but your representatives should know they are dealing with voters, whereas cops see the public as criminals because that's who they run into every day.

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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Bearcat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:03 pm

the_klenzer wrote: Bearcat, there are only 500 CZ858s imported before the cut off for prohibs.
My mistake, I mean't vz2008's. My friend in Canada said the newer ones had spot welded blocks filing in the F/A recess of the receiver and that the trigger groups had the full auto sears removed. Basically they were purpose built machine guns and receivers with full auto capability and modified before exportation to be semi automatic. My friend told me that IS illegal up there.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by azrael99 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:12 pm

ban this it look scary

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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:18 pm

I wish you folks the best of luck in seeking a solution to this mess, klenzer.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Doctor Jest » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:56 pm

Re-opened after moderator review.

I'm closing the reports on this. This is not political per se, it's a discussion of the impact of already-passed laws. Just please do be careful to not let politics creep in.

Thanks for the patience.

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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by the_klenzer » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:26 pm

Much thanks for reopening mods.

I'll keep updates posted as this goes on.
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Re: A very f--ked up thing happened in Canada... read this p

Post by Here2Learn » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:09 am

crypto wrote:
Darkhunter wrote:I've been hearing from coworkers that now Missouri is considering what Connecticut has done.
Missouri? I think you heard wrong. The state house just passed a bill nullifying all federal gun control within the state going back to the national firearms act.
Nope, I've seen the reports myself..... not sure how far it will go, but the legislation has been introduced..... I was going to provide a link but don't want to get hit with being political and besides, this thread is for our Canadian Brothers and Sisters........

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