Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jacket?

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Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jacket?

Post by ZombieKraft » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:00 pm

Random Zed scenario. You are in your bug out location w/ a giant stockpile of ammo. A seemingly endless hoard of zombies is coming your way.

How do you stop your gun from over heating? Thanks to changing military tactics, water cooled jackets aren't really made anymore. But they would certainly be useful against a zombie hoard.

Heat is the enemy of the barrel and will drastically increase barrel wear or decrease it's service life. It will also create mirages and make it difficult for you to hit your target. This is especially true when using a scope. A quick fix is a wet towel draped over the length of a stainless barrel.

For those that don't know, this is what 5 mag dumps will do to a suppressor:

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Last edited by ZombieKraft on Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by raptor » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:27 pm

I think you will need more than wet towel to cool that suppressor. :shock:

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by gundogs » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:58 pm

Switch weapons when heat is an issue

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by eeb » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:10 pm

Couple guys in the M16 section of Uzitalk were working on a water cooled M16 kit. Started with a cheapish fluted bull barrel, an A2 upper, and some surplus pipe. Ended up looking kind of like a Maxim machine gun. Seems to work from a fixed position, need a couple friends to help lug it around if your in a hurry. Post pics if you build something :D

Eta: I think I'd go with a lighter profile barrel like one of the A1 barrels to transfer heat to the water jacket more quickly. Also put a large cap on top so you can shove in chunks of snow and ice if cold weather becomes an issue.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by TacAir » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:42 pm



810 rounds on full auto, hand-guard smoking, then on fire. Weapon still fires. Where's the problem?
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by eeb » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:46 pm

I was also thinking of using a small fan to force air through a tubular freefloat foreend. Less effective than water, but lighter with less support equipment.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by eeb » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:49 pm

TacAir wrote:

810 rounds on full auto, hand-guard smoking, then on fire. Weapon still fires. Where's the problem?
Eventually may experience a degradation in accuracy as the rifling is stripped from the overheated barrel.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:49 pm

There are a lot of near-misses here.

Yes, excessive heat is bad. It will increase wear, and heat mirage can hinder accuracy.

Image

The big ugly butt is that none of these really fit the scenario. First off, the military only used water cooling for full-auto guns that were stationary and being used to suppress. Those guns had average rates of fire between 300 and 600rpm and had a crew just to carry ammo. Recently the military has moved to changeable barrel systems (the M240 and M249 are good examples) because they're lighter and let you carry more ammo instead of water and gun weight.

Fortunately, if you're rich enough to afford all the fun stuff with the giggle switches, you're rich enough to just sock a bunch of spare barrels/uppers instead of trying to rig up a half-assed water cooling system. For the rest of us, rates of fire are slower. Remember, you're not dumping mag after mag at the same target. In the scenario given, you're taking headshots. Deliberate, aimed shots. Anything else is a waste of ammo. That's gonna keep your ROF down. Not even Jerry Miculek could do full-speed mag-dumps on a horde of moving targets.

Now the technical aspect. Dumping water on a barrel, or throwing a hot towel over a suppressor has the potential to damage the metal. Ever seen what happens when you throw hot water on a frozen windshield? That can happen to metal. It requires more extreme temperatures, but then again barrels do get up there.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by ZombieKraft » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:13 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:The big ugly butt is that none of these really fit the scenario. First off, the military only used water cooling for full-auto guns that were stationary and being used to suppress. Those guns had average rates of fire between 300 and 600rpm and had a crew just to carry ammo. Recently the military has moved to changeable barrel systems (the M240 and M249 are good examples) because they're lighter and let you carry more ammo instead of water and gun weight.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I hear the changeable barrel system is a PITA that works better in theory than real life. Plus I don't have easy access to a M240. Ohio ordinance carries a semi-auto M240-SLR but that's $14,000 and you don't have any spare barrels yet. Yes I know compared to feeding full auto 5.56 the M240 doesn't cost that much.


Anyway, I may end up getting a belt fed .22LR with a giggle switch on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz9fwTD8DWE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dunno how hot .22 LR will get (yet) but ammo cost will be negligible. Even in full auto.

Call this academic, call this a fun discussion. But at this point I'm wondering if it can be easily done from a relatively stationary position.
Last edited by ZombieKraft on Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by ZombieKraft » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:19 pm

TacAir wrote:810 rounds on full auto, hand-guard smoking, then on fire. Weapon still fires. Where's the problem?
That barrel is toast? The heat treat has certainly changed... It's accuracy has just gone down the drain? If so you will now get lots and lots of "fliers". In theory at least. I've never done the destruction testing myself but read plenty on arfcom. Take that for what you will. I know a few gun smiths that caution against overheating a barrel.

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by ZombieKraft » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:56 pm

Water cooled AR47 (7.62x39) and apparently they have one for 5.56 as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQz7tGMETDY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/archive/i ... 44361.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Guys....you may have seen Brother Evil's design for his water cooled M-16 design....well here it is in 7.62 x .39!
The anti aircraft mount and spade grips are from KNS and Brother Evil changed out the barrel and modified the upper so that it would run in 7.62 x .39. We've been running Chinese AK drums (75 and 100 round) as well as the Bulgarian 75 round drums that are Chinese replicas.

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by ZombieKraft » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:01 pm

Thanks for the pointer eeb!

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by eeb » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:36 pm

No problem :D Doc's right, this isn't the most efficient way to solve the problem, however it does seem like a fun project. And don't just dump water on a hot barrel, ideally submerge the barrel before you begin shooting then circulate the water to keep the liquid next to the barrel cool and carrying away the heat. The beauty of the M16/AR 15 system includes the ease of swapping uppers. One of those uppers could include a super cool (or half-assed, depending on your point of view) water cooling system. Just another option.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by ZombieKraft » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:41 pm

eeb wrote:No problem :D Doc's right, this isn't the most efficient way to solve the problem,
I assume the most efficient is multiple uppers or spending $16,000 on a M240-SLR w/ spare barrels. Right? I might agree if the civilians could buy a M240B for the $6,000 list price but that's not possible in today's legal environment.
however it does seem like a fun project.
Yes it does.
And don't just dump water on a hot barrel, ideally submerge the barrel before you begin shooting.....
Great advice
The beauty of the M16/AR 15 system includes the ease of swapping uppers. One of those uppers could include a ......water cooling system.
I have a feeling the AR47 is the best route. The 7.62x39 is about 1000 FPS less than 5.56. Less heat to diffuse.
Last edited by ZombieKraft on Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:51 pm

ZombieKraft wrote:
eeb wrote:No problem :D Doc's right, this isn't the most efficient way to solve the problem,
I assume the most efficient is multiple uppers or spending $16,000 on a M240-SLR w/ spare barrels. Right?
No, the best solution is not to try to bunker down with a single gun and fend off a horde that requires sustained fire at rates that will result in extreme barrel damage. Remember, you're semi-auto and have to be taking head shots. That sustained rate of 12-15 rounds per minute will be hard to maintain when each shot has to destroy the brain or be wasted, and the sustained rate of fire should allow you to fire almost indefinitely* compared to trying to dump mag after mag. So, for you the answer is to slow your rate of fire and IF you suddenly turn into a world class speed shooter, hang a spare upper or two around (maybe less than two grand for a pair of spare uppers with RDS's) and spend your time now practicing shooting. That's the most efficient solution, or a major change in tactics, not trying to water cool a completely change an AR-15 into something it's not. You wanna build a water-cooled toy? Cool, but don't pretend like it's anything but a toy.

*Yeah, heat will build, even with a fluted barrel, and eventually you're going to start causing damage. Thing is, at 15 rounds per minute, you're gonna rung out of mags, energy, or time before you burn out the barrel.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by ZombieKraft » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:57 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:you're semi-auto
I'm not limited to semi auto.

It takes me about 30 seconds to legally turn a gun from semi auto to full auto using bump stocks or trigger springs. All this is 100% legal. I don't currently use them because I like giving the law a wide berth. However, they are easy to use and get results.

The second the fed.gov dissolves due to a pandemic, it will take me about 5 minutes to properly convert any AR15 or AK47 to full auto. When the only law of the land is the gun, you can be damn sure I'll have full auto.

I have friends that currently own registered full auto receivers.

Also, my scenario was for giggles. Full auto has it's uses. The M240B is next to impossible to acquire legally. Most civy equipment can't handle the temps reached by full auto.

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by eeb » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:19 pm

And what if the hoard isn't technically zombies that require headshots, but something else. Possibly alien parasites requiring requiring multiple center mass shots.

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:21 pm

eeb wrote:And what if the hoard isn't technically zombies that require headshots, but something else. Possibly alien parasites requiring requiring multiple center mass shots.

"Now you're just being silly" :D :lol:
If it's anything that can shoot back, being a lone gunner is obtuse suicide.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by eeb » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:40 pm

To do list* buy more machine guns
*get more friends
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:28 pm

Improve your position.

Pull off your can before getting in a sustained battle where it may be worthless.

Bring your friends and have them bring their guns.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:29 pm

ZombieKraft wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:you're semi-auto
I'm not limited to semi auto.

It takes me about 30 seconds to legally turn a gun from semi auto to full auto using bump stocks or trigger springs. All this is 100% legal. I don't currently use them because I like giving the law a wide berth. However, they are easy to use and get results.

The second the fed.gov dissolves due to a pandemic, it will take me about 5 minutes to properly convert any AR15 or AK47 to full auto. When the only law of the land is the gun, you can be damn sure I'll have full auto.

I have friends that currently own registered full auto receivers.

Also, my scenario was for giggles. Full auto has it's uses. The M240B is next to impossible to acquire legally. Most civy equipment can't handle the temps reached by full auto.
Why would you want a full auto AR if you're not kicking down doors on an entry team?

It's a waste of ammo, and uh.... causes the weapon to prematurely heat up in the process.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by That German Guy » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:56 pm

ZombieKraft wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:The big ugly butt is that none of these really fit the scenario. First off, the military only used water cooling for full-auto guns that were stationary and being used to suppress. Those guns had average rates of fire between 300 and 600rpm and had a crew just to carry ammo. Recently the military has moved to changeable barrel systems (the M240 and M249 are good examples) because they're lighter and let you carry more ammo instead of water and gun weight.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I hear the changeable barrel system is a PITA that works better in theory than real life. Plus I don't have easy access to a M240. Ohio ordinance carries a semi-auto M240-SLR but that's $14,000 and you don't have any spare barrels yet. Yes I know compared to feeding full auto 5.56 the M240 doesn't cost that much.


Anyway, I may end up getting a belt fed .22LR with a giggle switch on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz9fwTD8DWE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dunno how hot .22 LR will get (yet) but ammo cost will be negligible. Even in full auto.

Call this academic, call this a fun discussion. But at this point I'm wondering if it can be easily done from a relatively stationary position.
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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by ZombieKraft » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:51 am

UndeadInfidel wrote:
Why would you want a full auto AR if you're not kicking down doors on an entry team?

It's a waste of ammo, and uh.... causes the weapon to prematurely heat up in the process.
Ok fine... call me an "academic engineer". I like doing things just because I can.

Maybe full auto isn't worth much other than for suppression fire. I don't know. I'm not a military tactician. I just thought this would be a cool thought experiment and tried to back it up with every possible reason I could think of. And that was the biggest mistake, but at least I learned nobody really likes F/A.

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Re: Ensuring sustained fire and gun life... water cooled jac

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:05 am

ZombieKraft wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote:
Why would you want a full auto AR if you're not kicking down doors on an entry team?

It's a waste of ammo, and uh.... causes the weapon to prematurely heat up in the process.
Ok fine... call me an "academic engineer". I like doing things just because I can.

Maybe full auto isn't worth much other than for suppression fire. I don't know. I'm not a military tactician. I just thought this would be a cool thought experiment and tried to back it up with every possible reason I could think of. And that was the biggest mistake, but at least I learned nobody really likes F/A.
Not quite. Full giggle has it's uses; namely suppression and CQB. For suppression, you need a lot of supporting ads to back it up, and quite a bit of training. Same goes for CQB but less so. It's not that full auto is bad, just the way you're trying to execute it. Particularly trying to equate a slidefire to full auto, or the suggestions to use a thin barrel within the water-cooled jacket...

There are certain pervasive concepts that kinda clue you in to how well someone understands the subject matter. People who equate tannerite to military grade explosive or bumpfiring an AR to a proper MG generally have just enough of an understanding of them to get someone really hurt if they try it. as a thought experiment, it's an interesting idea but on par with trying to build you Honda civic into a 4wd do k crawler. You might eventually do it but you'd have been cheaper and better to have bought something designed to work that way from the get-go, and almost certainly safer.

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