WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

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WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Red Dawn » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:06 am

I had a soviet steel helmet in the WWII style (no idea what year it was made) sitting around. Years ago I shot an M1 Helmet with a Mosin Nagant and was surprised at the result. I decided to do a test to show how little it really protects against a direct hit from an SKS and a Mosin Nagant. They never were designed to take hits from firearms.

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Here's the video, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GKMVv1g ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by NorrisUnleashed » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:00 am

Cool. What about pistol rounds? Iwould be interested to 9 and 45 up against a similar helmet.
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Red Dawn » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:11 am

NorrisUnleashed wrote:Cool. What about pistol rounds? Iwould be interested to 9 and 45 up against a similar helmet.
Off camera we shot it with a 38 special, 32 auto and birdshot plus buck shot. If the video gets enough attention I'll order another helmet and do a similar test. Unfortunately I don't have a 9mm or a 45... but I do have a Sig P250 so I guess I have an excuse to shell out five hundred more for two caliber kits.

Here's the helmet at the end of the day.

Image
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by DarkAxel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:20 am

Red Dawn wrote:I had a soviet steel helmet in the WWII style (no idea what year it was made) sitting around. Years ago I shot an M1 Helmet with a Mosin Nagant and was surprised at the result. I decided to do a test to show how little it really protects against a direct hit from an SKS and a Mosin Nagant. They never were designed to take hits from firearms.

Image

Here's the video, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Embedded it for you.
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by JFlagg » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:21 am

I did a similar test years ago with a standard issue Kevlar helmet that the US army uses... I shot it with .22LR, .40, .270 and .300 win mag... Mostly because that's what I had. The only one that didnt penetrate was .22lr, and it still bubbled the inside enough to give the wearer some serious head trauma...
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by iron_angel » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:41 am

JFlagg wrote:I did a similar test years ago with a standard issue Kevlar helmet that the US army uses... I shot it with .22LR, .40, .270 and .300 win mag... Mostly because that's what I had. The only one that didnt penetrate was .22lr, and it still bubbled the inside enough to give the wearer some serious head trauma...
I wonder how variable those are... The Box O' Truth (yeah, yeah, I know) did a test on one of those, with a .22, 9mm, .45, .357 Magnum and 7.62x25 Tokarev. Everything but the Tokarev was stopped cold, though the .357s bubbled the inside pretty badly. The Tokarev blew right through, somewhat surprisingly - I'd think the velocity on the hot .357 Mag FMJs he was trying would be pretty close, though by then the helmet's structure was probably pretty buggered. I'd think, given that, most any rifle round would not find one of those Kevlar brainbuckets to be a significant impediment.

Out of curiosity, was that .40 an FMJ? (I am not at all surprised by the .270 and the .300 win mag, those are vicious penetrators any way you slice it)
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:08 am

Everyone puts down the M16 and the 5.56 when it first came out, but one of the requirements the US Military wanted in the new caliber was the ability to penetrate a steel helmet at 400 yards. I always thought that was difficult task until now.

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:09 am

Red Dawn wrote:
NorrisUnleashed wrote:Cool. What about pistol rounds? Iwould be interested to 9 and 45 up against a similar helmet.
Off camera we shot it with a 38 special, 32 auto and birdshot plus buck shot. If the video gets enough attention I'll order another helmet and do a similar test. Unfortunately I don't have a 9mm or a 45... but I do have a Sig P250 so I guess I have an excuse to shell out five hundred more for two caliber kits.

Here's the helmet at the end of the day.

Image

Did the .38 and .32 penetrate?

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:30 am

So everyone knows that steel helmets were never really intended to stop bullets, right? They were to stop shrapnel and (if you got lucky) maybe deflect a round that wasn't coming straight on. Even the kevlar helmets are unlikely to stop a straight on hit.
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Red Dawn » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:42 pm

DarkAxel wrote:

Embedded it for you.
Thanks the embedding works for me sometimes and not others.
Mikeyboy wrote:Everyone puts down the M16 and the 5.56 when it first came out, but one of the requirements the US Military wanted in the new caliber was the ability to penetrate a steel helmet at 400 yards. I always thought that was difficult task until now.
It really is not a difficult task. Somewhere the myth started popping up that a helmet will save you. Now I'd rather have one then not have one in some instances like being in a crumbling building.
Mikeyboy wrote:Image

Did the .38 and .32 penetrate?
The big dent that you see with the shiny sun reflected ring is from a .38 Special. Neither one penetrated the steel. The .38 Special pushed it in enough that it would have impacted the skull of the wearer.
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:So everyone knows that steel helmets were never really intended to stop bullets, right? They were to stop shrapnel and (if you got lucky) maybe deflect a round that wasn't coming straight on. Even the kevlar helmets are unlikely to stop a straight on hit.
By this point everyone should but there are still some people that believe that they are basically armor against everything. Most of those people have never seen real world testing or results. There's that one shot in Saving Private Ryan where on the beach one guy gets a glancing blow off his helmet and pulls it off to look at it then gets hit in the head. That's probably responsible for a lot of the myth in modern times. Back during the middle ages steel was decent against some weapons like swords but by the time when firearms came along and had enough accuracy and range in the black powder weapons to do damage to steel plate people stopped wearing it. Same thing applies here. While the .38 Special failed to penetrate the helmet I wager that a .50,.60,.65,.75 caliber round ball would go through it.
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Mikeyboy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:46 pm

Red Dawn wrote:
DarkAxel wrote:

Embedded it for you.
Thanks the embedding works for me sometimes and not others.
Mikeyboy wrote:Everyone puts down the M16 and the 5.56 when it first came out, but one of the requirements the US Military wanted in the new caliber was the ability to penetrate a steel helmet at 400 yards. I always thought that was difficult task until now.
It really is not a difficult task. Somewhere the myth started popping up that a helmet will save you. Now I'd rather have one then not have one in some instances like being in a crumbling building.
Mikeyboy wrote:Image

Did the .38 and .32 penetrate?
The big dent that you see with the shiny sun reflected ring is from a .38 Special. Neither one penetrated the steel. The .38 Special pushed it in enough that it would have impacted the skull of the wearer.

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:So everyone knows that steel helmets were never really intended to stop bullets, right? They were to stop shrapnel and (if you got lucky) maybe deflect a round that wasn't coming straight on. Even the kevlar helmets are unlikely to stop a straight on hit.
By this point everyone should but there are still some people that believe that they are basically armor against everything. Most of those people have never seen real world testing or results. There's that one shot in Saving Private Ryan where on the beach one guy gets a glancing blow off his helmet and pulls it off to look at it then gets hit in the head. That's probably responsible for a lot of the myth in modern times. Back during the middle ages steel was decent against some weapons like swords but by the time when firearms came along and had enough accuracy and range in the black powder weapons to do damage to steel plate people stopped wearing it. Same thing applies here. While the .38 Special failed to penetrate the helmet I wager that a .50,.60,.65,.75 caliber round ball would go through it.

That is funny, the US Army Basic training will tell you to do "I'm up, they see me and I'm down" sprints and low crawls towards a machine gun position in an open field. "Don't worry, your Kevlar helmet will stop any rounds to your head."

Sounds like a BS line by Drill Sgts to soldiers so they have the courage to take a foxhole

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:03 pm

Mikeyboy wrote: That is funny, the US Army Basic training will tell you to do "I'm up, they see me and I'm down" sprints and low crawls towards a machine gun position in an open field. "Don't worry, your Kevlar helmet will stop any rounds to your head."

Sounds like a BS line by Drill Sgts to soldiers so they have the courage to take a foxhole
Citation required. Maybe a really shitty DI/DS might say that. None of mine did. It's certainly not part of the doctrine or the TTP that a kevlar helmet will stop a direct impact. Nobody in my company believed that. I won't go into the entire process behind the purpose, timing, and effectiveness of rushing in conventional armed combat, as this is not the place, but suffice it to say that you have a very skewed view of the how and why of our TTPs and the attitude NCOs take toward the men they're training.
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Boondock » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:41 pm

Mikeyboy wrote:That is funny, the US Army Basic training will tell you to do "I'm up, they see me and I'm down" sprints and low crawls towards a machine gun position in an open field. "Don't worry, your Kevlar helmet will stop any rounds to your head."

Sounds like a BS line by Drill Sgts to soldiers so they have the courage to take a foxhole
I remember, "I'm up, they see me, I'm down." The saying was utilized for move under direct fire, specifically the 3-5 second rush. It takes 3 seconds to say the phrase. However, army doctrine, not in the late 1980s or the present, advocates a frontal assault on a fixed position.

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Hoppy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:15 pm

omg shrapnel helmet is only rated for shrapnel. :crazy:

did anyone expect anything less from Soviet gear?

Even most modern western headgear is still barely level II rated, some claim IIIA but DOD and NIJ stats dont line up
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Utah_ZHunter » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:47 pm

Red Dawn wrote:
NorrisUnleashed wrote:Cool. What about pistol rounds? Iwould be interested to 9 and 45 up against a similar helmet.
Off camera we shot it with a 38 special, 32 auto and birdshot plus buck shot. If the video gets enough attention I'll order another helmet and do a similar test. Unfortunately I don't have a 9mm or a 45... but I do have a Sig P250 so I guess I have an excuse to shell out five hundred more for two caliber kits.
Give me a call. I can bring a 9mm handgun, and carbine, 45, 357, 44mag, 50ae, 7.62x54, 303. (and anything else my dad has)
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Red Dawn » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:33 am

Utah_ZHunter wrote:
Red Dawn wrote:
NorrisUnleashed wrote:Cool. What about pistol rounds? Iwould be interested to 9 and 45 up against a similar helmet.
Off camera we shot it with a 38 special, 32 auto and birdshot plus buck shot. If the video gets enough attention I'll order another helmet and do a similar test. Unfortunately I don't have a 9mm or a 45... but I do have a Sig P250 so I guess I have an excuse to shell out five hundred more for two caliber kits.
Give me a call. I can bring a 9mm handgun, and carbine, 45, 357, 44mag, 50ae, 7.62x54, 303. (and anything else my dad has)
If we do a second one I'll be sure to let you know when. Had to go to Mona canyon. They closed off the entire west side of Utah lake to shooters. I've never been to the standbury range but Chris the other guy in the video has so he knows where it is. I really miss living in Hurricane, I could step off my back porch and shoot there.
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Red Dawn » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:13 am

I had a couple people ask me in PM's and on youtube and elsewhere what happened with the SKS round and why it did not go through it when other videos show the SKS penetrating steel helmets.

This is what happened in so much as we can tell given the large holes in the back of the dresser and the bottom of the shelf board plus the fragmentation that looks like a shotgun blast went through the particle board.

Image

Sorry about the bad quality and the wrong words. I was a bit drunk when typing this up. Things like editing should be exiting and so on. I will do a much better one later... probably... and I forgot my jpeg settings were not on the highest quality and it saved looking like crap.
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Iowa_guy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:32 pm

Red Dawn wrote:I had a couple people ask me in PM's and on youtube and elsewhere what happened with the SKS round and why it did not go through it when other videos show the SKS penetrating steel helmets.

This is what happened in so much as we can tell given the large holes in the back of the dresser and the bottom of the shelf board plus the fragmentation that looks like a shotgun blast went through the particle board.

Image

Sorry about the bad quality and the wrong words. I was a bit drunk when typing this up. Things like editing should be exiting and so on. I will do a much better one later... probably... and I forgot my jpeg settings were not on the highest quality and it saved looking like crap.

At least the undertaker may have an easier time with the poor SOB hit with the Mosin.

Could have put a helmet on a watermelon just to make it interesting.

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:24 pm

Iowa_guy wrote:Could have put a helmet on a watermelon just to make it interesting.
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That sounds fun! While it wouldn't properly simulate a skull under the helmet, it would still be messy fun. :)
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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by 400 Grains » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:02 am

Hoppy wrote:Even most modern western headgear is still barely level II rated, some claim IIIA but DOD and NIJ stats dont line up
That's because there's no such thing as an NIJ IIIA certified helmet. Never has been.

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:04 am

400 Grains wrote:
Hoppy wrote:Even most modern western headgear is still barely level II rated, some claim IIIA but DOD and NIJ stats dont line up
That's because there's no such thing as an NIJ IIIA certified helmet. Never has been.
There were attempts, but whiplash and concussions are a bitch. Also weight.

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by 400 Grains » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:20 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
400 Grains wrote:
Hoppy wrote:Even most modern western headgear is still barely level II rated, some claim IIIA but DOD and NIJ stats dont line up
That's because there's no such thing as an NIJ IIIA certified helmet. Never has been.
There were attempts, but whiplash and concussions are a bitch. Also weight.

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No, there's no IIIA NIJ helmet standard. Never has been.

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:24 am

400 Grains wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
400 Grains wrote:
Hoppy wrote:Even most modern western headgear is still barely level II rated, some claim IIIA but DOD and NIJ stats dont line up
That's because there's no such thing as an NIJ IIIA certified helmet. Never has been.
There were attempts, but whiplash and concussions are a bitch. Also weight.

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No, there's no IIIA NIJ helmet standard. Never has been.
Right, but there were prototypes (attempts) to get IIIA and even IV levels of protection. Still trying, if I remember my Discovery channel. It just never gets out of the prototype stage.

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Re: WWII Soviet Steel Helmet vs SKS & Mosin Nagant

Post by 400 Grains » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:31 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: Right, but there were prototypes (attempts) to get IIIA and even IV levels of protection. Still trying, if I remember my Discovery channel. It just never gets out of the prototype stage.

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Semantics.

In order to have a IIIA helmet, there would have to be a IIIA standard for them to meet. There isn't. But to look at some the helmet manufacturers advertising, you'd think there was.

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