Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Krustofski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:36 pm

Bearcat wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:Off the subject of hearing loss and why suppressors aren't issued to the military, does anyone know if it'd be possible to fit a regular small loop lever to a Rossi Ranch Hand or will I be stuck using the giant John Wayne style big loop ?

Seeing as how the receiver is basically the same as the Model 92 lever guns, I'm thinking I should be able to put a smaller lever on it.

Also, am I an idiot for wanting to put a regular lever on this gun ?
I looked into this when I had one. I called Rossi to see if any other model lever action loop would work. I was told no, it's a unique part.
Strange. My gunsmith told me the ranch hand levers are interchangable with Rossi 92 levers when I asked for a bigger loop for using my 16'' .357 with gloves.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Bearcat » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:00 pm

Krustofski wrote:
Bearcat wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:Off the subject of hearing loss and why suppressors aren't issued to the military, does anyone know if it'd be possible to fit a regular small loop lever to a Rossi Ranch Hand or will I be stuck using the giant John Wayne style big loop ?

Seeing as how the receiver is basically the same as the Model 92 lever guns, I'm thinking I should be able to put a smaller lever on it.

Also, am I an idiot for wanting to put a regular lever on this gun ?
I looked into this when I had one. I called Rossi to see if any other model lever action loop would work. I was told no, it's a unique part.
Strange. My gunsmith told me the ranch hand levers are interchangable with Rossi 92 levers when I asked for a bigger loop for using my 16'' .357 with gloves.
That is weird. I know the person I spoke with sent my querry to one of the guys in the back. Maybe he was wrong or she didn't relay the question properly.

Anyways, does anyone know why the Troy CBI mags are marketed as chemical and bio resistant? Are regular mags not? It seems to me like if you are dealing with a situation that calls for chem and bio weapon resistant magazines, you are well fucked and far from home.

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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Krustofski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:03 pm

Bearcat wrote:
Krustofski wrote:
Bearcat wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:Off the subject of hearing loss and why suppressors aren't issued to the military, does anyone know if it'd be possible to fit a regular small loop lever to a Rossi Ranch Hand or will I be stuck using the giant John Wayne style big loop ?

Seeing as how the receiver is basically the same as the Model 92 lever guns, I'm thinking I should be able to put a smaller lever on it.

Also, am I an idiot for wanting to put a regular lever on this gun ?
I looked into this when I had one. I called Rossi to see if any other model lever action loop would work. I was told no, it's a unique part.
Strange. My gunsmith told me the ranch hand levers are interchangable with Rossi 92 levers when I asked for a bigger loop for using my 16'' .357 with gloves.
That is weird. I know the person I spoke with sent my querry to one of the guys in the back. Maybe he was wrong or she didn't relay the question properly.

Anyways, does anyone know why the Troy CBI mags are marketed as chemical and bio resistant? Are regular mags not? It seems to me like if you are dealing with a situation that calls for chem and bio weapon resistant magazines, you are well fucked and far from home.
Or ths smith I asked made a half-assed assumption and presented it as fact. Anyway...

Pretty much anything that's not alive is resistant to bio weapons. I mean, that's why they are bio weapons, for fuck's sake.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:05 pm

Bearcat wrote:
Krustofski wrote:
Bearcat wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:Off the subject of hearing loss and why suppressors aren't issued to the military, does anyone know if it'd be possible to fit a regular small loop lever to a Rossi Ranch Hand or will I be stuck using the giant John Wayne style big loop ?

Seeing as how the receiver is basically the same as the Model 92 lever guns, I'm thinking I should be able to put a smaller lever on it.

Also, am I an idiot for wanting to put a regular lever on this gun ?
I looked into this when I had one. I called Rossi to see if any other model lever action loop would work. I was told no, it's a unique part.
Strange. My gunsmith told me the ranch hand levers are interchangable with Rossi 92 levers when I asked for a bigger loop for using my 16'' .357 with gloves.
That is weird. I know the person I spoke with sent my querry to one of the guys in the back. Maybe he was wrong or she didn't relay the question properly.

Anyways, does anyone know why the Troy CBI mags are marketed as chemical and bio resistant? Are regular mags not? It seems to me like if you are dealing with a situation that calls for chem and bio weapon resistant magazines, you are well fucked and far from home.
CBIR is just one of the military requirements. I'm assuming certain chemical agents react badly with certain polymers.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Bearcat » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:13 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Bearcat wrote:
Anyways, does anyone know why the Troy CBI mags are marketed as chemical and bio resistant? Are regular mags not? It seems to me like if you are dealing with a situation that calls for chem and bio weapon resistant magazines, you are well fucked and far from home.
CBIR is just one of the military requirements. I'm assuming certain chemical agents react badly with certain polymers.
I assumed the same. It's just I thought that the military still issues aluminum magazines and at the very least allow, if not procure pmags. I've never heard of such a spec called out before for either of those, which granted doesn't mean it never existed.

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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by jdbl14 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:12 pm

Remington 597... What do you all think? I was going to get a 10/22,then I shot my buddies 597 and am very impressed. I can get one at a store local to me with a 1/2-28 threaded heavy barrel and picatinny rail for optics for $220.

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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Dogan » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:21 pm

jdbl14 wrote:Remington 597... What do you all think? I was going to get a 10/22,then I shot my buddies 597 and am very impressed. I can get one at a store local to me with a 1/2-28 threaded heavy barrel and picatinny rail for optics for $220.
They've got oddities, and like any .22 they're picky about ammo. A good rifle but limited after market parts available. As for a heavy-barrel source of cheap accurate fun, I've hot a heavy barreled SS 597 with floated barrel, 2.5 lb trigger and a 50mm Bushy at home that will shoot 5-round .8MOA/25y groups with Wolf target. No, not in my hands; in the hands of a far more experienced shooter.

As far as reliability... I've got several several thousand rounds through my "cheap" 597 and I'll have a FTF/FTE rate of less than 2/400. Shot it in the rain, in the filth, too much lube, no lube... it does what I ask of it, and for 100 bucks out the door of my LGS. However noone makes a reliable high-cap for it.

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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by TheLastOne » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:47 pm

Well it took all of 5 minutes to get the SRTs into my sigs tonight. Much better reset, must go shooting sooooon! Jury duty on my day off next week :|
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:40 am

Okay, just because I feel like it, here's my take on why suppressors are a limited use for the military.
1. It burns, Jesus, it burns. I was a machine gunner for my squad. The barrel gets damn haut, like brush fire starting hot. Same goes with suppressors, they get damn haut. We had gun NOOBS! that would burn themselves on M16 barrels, I can only imagine the burns folks would get with suppressors on the end of guns. Suppressors turn noise into heat, quickly. In about half a mag of 5.56 the suppressor (can, because it's easier to write) will be hot. Finish that mag and that can is smoking hot, like 2nd degree burns hot. Next mag, yeah, 3rd degree burns easy. I gingerly brushed my can against my leg and got a 3rd degree burn. I don't know anyone who owns a can that doesn't have serious burns and they're gun guys. I can't imagine a bunch of buck recruits with 700* cans. I can say with 100% certainity that at least 3 recuits per range session would be going to the hospital with serious burns, probably on their hands.
2. My God that thing blew up! : Yupe, durability. Cans just aren't going to hold up, yeah, it says full auto rate but is it belt fed auto rated? Or even 3-5 mags rated? Or a year without armourer rebuilds? Sorry, can technology just isn't there. Yes, there are some bad ass cans, the really good ones are $2000 and up. Now, you have a high dollaz item in the hands of an infantry squad, good luck. Now, you have them putting the things on wrong, not tightening them down, etc.
3. Fuck, that AK is loud!: The rest of the battle field is very loud. There are explosions, people yelling in your ear, jet 10 ft over your head, etc. You can't suppress the battlefield, nope.
The solution is good ear pro as stated earlier. I have a mild deficit in hearing but I have full blown tinnitus. I bought my own ear pro.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:57 am

Speaking of hot cans (no, not asses), has anyone put many rounds through one wearing something like this?

https://www.riflesonly.com/pro-shop/tac ... hield.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:10 am

UndeadInfidel wrote:Speaking of hot cans (no, not asses), has anyone put many rounds through one wearing something like this?

https://www.riflesonly.com/pro-shop/tac ... hield.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I was playing at the shop the other day with something similar, though much uglier. 200 rounds of 5.56 and I could touch the wrap without burning myself or feeling like I needed to be in any hurry to release the can. Sort of like they wrapped a gunner's glove around the can, but with less asbestos.I think the one we had was a slip over instead of a velcro on. I have no idea if that would extend or hurt the life of your can (though I suspect it would increase heat inside the wrap and would therefore shorten the lifespan) but AFAIK it's just another protective layer between you and your expensive tax stamp.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:32 am

The old asbestos gloves were the shit, though. I've seen 240 barrels glowing hot and they always seemed well worth the cancer risk when changing them.

As far as my rifle can, I've been thinking of adding a reverse handstop or something up there to keep my hand from slipping forward off the tube and ruining my day. One downside to all these flush/recessed can setups is they're so easy to do that. I guess my only question would be, is if it's ok to have a handstop (IWC, Gear Sector, etc) on an AR pistol? I did a small amount of research on the subject a while back and ran into some conflicting opinions.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by TDW586 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:54 am

AFAIK, current ATF opinion letters state that MagPul AFGs are good to go on pistols. Therefore, absent a conflicting letter, it would stand to reason that hand stops are as well, since they serve a similar function and are not a "grip" as the ATF defines it.

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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by zobmiedown » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:19 am

Aside from all the other stated reasons for cans not being issued to line units there is another side to it. Cans are not legal for every civilian. I served during the last assult weapons ban. It was a nightmare accounting for every magazine issue to every one in my squad on a regular basis. Now when one got lost during training some where in the field it required a full investigation as it was a controled item due to the ban. Cans would be an even greater nightmare. Hell for those of us that lived off base we were not allowed to transport our magazines to our residences. They had to be locked up in wall lockers at the command. Which ment every one that lived off base had to have a wall locker at the command. That many wall lockers takes up a hell of a lot of space. As for ear pro. Yes better ear pro is needed. However the amount of equipment that gets lost daily is staggering. Battle fields are very dirty places and equipment wears out due to the harsh environments. Hell I flew to Desert Shiled in the first waves and wore out two pairs of boots before Desert Storm ever kicked off. So The ear pro would need to be cheep to be issued to everyone nad large amounts of replacements on hand for loss or damage. This creates an additional logistical nightmare.

The military does not care about what the VA has to pay out for the most part as it is seperate funding pools that Generals don't have to worry over. And yes the VA does pay for hearing loss as it is rated in my disability letter but only at 5%.

Now on to the rossi lever question. I am taking a swag at this but here goes. You can order thier rifles with either lever size. I an not 100% on this but I would think they would swap out. After all parts standardization is a big part of manufacturing. As an example chevy uses the same frame for all their full size trucks as the do for the suburban. Same with wiring harnesses light bulbs and such. Standardization means less logistical train and cheeper per unit costs. So alon those lines I am betting that Rossi does the same with their rifle recievers and as such I would bet that the levers would infact fit the action as it would be a standard size.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:43 am

So cans would be more of an accountability nightmare than ACOGs, burst/full auto sears, M203s, hand grenades...

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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:46 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:So cans would be more of an accountability nightmare than ACOGs, burst/full auto sears, M203s, hand grenades...
Yeah, I was going to say this as well but figured I'd be nitpicking. They already trust grunts with a number of highly dangerous pieces of gear. Then again, why'd they take away all the demo gear from the 0351 bubbas?
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by zobmiedown » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:48 am

No they would not be more of an accountability nightmare but an additional one that the cost/vs benifit would not make them advantageous. It's not just hte accountability but the storage space and the cost per item vs benifit. Not to mention the POI shift everytime they were put on or removed. I merely pointed out that it is an additional concer no one else had raised.

Edited to add. For bases in states with new magazine restrictions they have a nightmare on the horizon controling the mags they issue once again.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:49 am

zobmiedown wrote:No they would not be more of an accountability nightmare but an additional one that the cost/vs benifit would not make them advantageous. It's not just hte accountability but the storage space and the cost per item vs benifit. Not to mention the POI shift everytime they were put on or removed. I merely pointed out that it is an additional concer no one else had raised.
You act as if you're talking to someone who hasn't police called the desert/jungle for 12+ hours looking for some boot's lost pair of NVGs. :rofl:

But really, in an operational environment it wouldn't be much of an additional headache.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:51 am

TDW586 wrote:AFAIK, current ATF opinion letters state that MagPul AFGs are good to go on pistols. Therefore, absent a conflicting letter, it would stand to reason that hand stops are as well, since they serve a similar function and are not a "grip" as the ATF defines it.
That's what I was thinking, but I haven't seen a letter from the ATF specifically addressing hand stops, so everyone seems to have views of their own.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:12 pm

UndeadInfidel wrote:
TDW586 wrote:AFAIK, current ATF opinion letters state that MagPul AFGs are good to go on pistols. Therefore, absent a conflicting letter, it would stand to reason that hand stops are as well, since they serve a similar function and are not a "grip" as the ATF defines it.
That's what I was thinking, but I haven't seen a letter from the ATF specifically addressing hand stops, so everyone seems to have views of their own.
It has to be conspicuously protruding down from the handguard to be a grip and function as a grip. A hand stop, unless it's huge and can act as a grip, I don't think would be considered a grip.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:21 pm

They took away our demo gear so they wouldn't have to pay us the hazard pay, since they could push engos to every company. True story.

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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by zobmiedown » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:11 pm

UndeadInfidel wrote:
zobmiedown wrote:No they would not be more of an accountability nightmare but an additional one that the cost/vs benifit would not make them advantageous. It's not just hte accountability but the storage space and the cost per item vs benifit. Not to mention the POI shift everytime they were put on or removed. I merely pointed out that it is an additional concer no one else had raised.
You act as if you're talking to someone who hasn't police called the desert/jungle for 12+ hours looking for some boot's lost pair of NVGs. :rofl:

But really, in an operational environment it wouldn't be much of an additional headache.
I have played that game with an Lt's 9mm and gas mask. It sucks when it's an enlisted member but when it's an officer it down right should end in an ass whooping. Then again I played that game at 29 palms for one 30 round magazine all so the CO could avoid having to do an investigation and the paperwork it would involve.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:22 pm

zobmiedown wrote:I have played that game with an Lt's 9mm and gas mask. It sucks when it's an enlisted member but when it's an officer it down right should end in an ass whooping. Then again I played that game at 29 palms for one 30 round magazine all so the CO could avoid having to do an investigation and the paperwork it would involve.
Yep, my worst experience was in 29 Palms turned a 72 hour training op into a full weekend of "NVG hide and seek". We spent an entire day and night hunting for them, and eventually found them buried in a fighting hole they'd dug two nights before (and subsequently filled in). One of the reasons I decided not to reenlist.
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Re: Firearms CHAT, the whateverth

Post by Chris@MTCT » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:54 pm

zobmiedown wrote:The military does not care about what the VA has to pay out for the most part as it is seperate funding pools that Generals don't have to worry over. And yes the VA does pay for hearing loss as it is rated in my disability letter but only at 5%.
VA does not do hearing loss NOW if it is not combat related due to a documented event, I know more then a few guys that had to cough up records or their hearing loss would not have been covered.

Just having hearing loss now is not good enough, you have to prove it was combat related and not training or equipment related because the Army issues ear pro.
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