Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to Know

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Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to Know

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:01 pm

I'm aware that this subject is a shit magnet, and we JUST had to deal with a political discussion time-out in the firearms section. The fact is, we have a lot of good folks in NY and the (actual, not speculative) law changes that were approved yesterday are now part of the things residents must be aware of, lest they inadvertently find themselves with unlawful firearm components, magazines, or features.

I'm going to do the best I can, and since this is my thread, I'd like to lay down the rule that this is NOT NOT NOT the place for talking about how or why you don't LIKE a law. The first person who does, ruins it for everyone. Please think about that before you post.

I'm kind of skipping the obvious things, like it now being a misdemeanor if you don't report a gun stolen within 24 hours. That seems like a no-brainer, that nobody would have a problem with. Yes, you might ask if it counts if you were away on vacation at the time and didn't come home until after more than a day, but that's a legitimate extenuating circumstance. So I'm not covering all the changes.

The maximum capacity for any magazine manufactured after the 1994 ban date was previously ten rounds. Pre-ban magazines were legal to own and use. This changes to seven rounds, and no pre-ban mags. HOWEVER, and this is important because there's no precedent for it as far as I know, you may own your existing ten-round magazines manufactured before 2013, provided you never have more than 7 rounds loaded in them. If you were to load 8, it's a misdemeanor (not the same penalty as, say, having a post-ban AR mag). .22 magazines and tubular magazines (no, not Calicos, lever-action) are exempt, as well as C&R guns (over 50 years old). This would include guns like the M1 Garand, which use an 8-round removable magazine. Pre-ban magazines are an area where I'm reading conflicting information, between "if you didn't know, you may surrender or destroy it within 30 days", or "you have until the end of the year to sell it". I believe only Massachusetts is a state that allows pre-ban magazines, now, but that does mean there's still a market for them.

I'm still reading as I write this, and there's definitely a stipulation that you may load ten rounds at a range, so essentially, it will not affect actual use, except when loaded for home defense (not sure if there's a 5-round limit for hunting in NY because I do not hunt). Competitions would not be affected by the new ban.

I'm not clear on the gun registration statutes, so I'm going to hold off on covering them. It does not seem like every gun must now be registered, just pre-ban guns that are owned by residents. I'm not even clear on what is involved with registration.

Previously, the assault weapon features statute stated that you may not have more than two or more (sorry about that) of a list of features on a given gun (with discreet lists for rifles, handguns, and shotguns). The list included:

folding or telescoping stock
pistol grip
thumbhole stock
bayonet lug
flash suppressor or threaded barrel without a muzzle brake or thread protector permanently affixed
rifle grenade launcher
forward vertical grip

It looks like all that was added to that list is muzzle brakes and compensators (which are the same thing as far as I know). However, now the statute states that you may not have one feature, down from two.

What this means for AR/AK/et al owners:

The ban as it existed prior to this has been around for long enough that NY owners have guns that almost meet these new standards. The main difference in the vast majority of cases will be the change from the traditional pistol grip to one of the solution products that have been in use in California for some time that move the grip back towards the buttstock as is the case in traditional hunting rifles. A bullet button, which creates a non-removable magazine condition, does not appear to be a legal solution, as the statute seems to name semi-automatic guns as opposed to removable-magazine guns. One could also disable the cycling system (for example, by blocking the direct gas impingement path in an AR), effectively transforming the gun into a bolt-action (but this seems to me to be a poor choice).

This is the text of the bill: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?defaul ... =Y&Votes=Y

Feel free to add or correct my initial take, I will try to keep up with this so that we can create an informative guide until everything is just common knowledge.
Last edited by Sledgecrowbar on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by TravisM.1 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:46 am

Anyone in NY should PM me.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by iron_angel » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:37 am

Sledgecrowbar wrote: I believe only Massachusetts is a state that allows pre-ban magazines, now, but that does mean there's still a market for them.
I'm unclear on what you meant by this exactly - as far as I know all states that don't have magazine capacity restrictions ought to allow mags built before 1994. For NY residents, the most relevant would be PA, OH and VT.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:29 pm

iron_angel wrote:I'm unclear on what you meant by this exactly - as far as I know all states that don't have magazine capacity restrictions ought to allow mags built before 1994. For NY residents, the most relevant would be PA, OH and VT.
I was talking about a market for magazines specifically made before the ban, being more valuable in states where only said mags are allowed. Yes, pre-bans are allowed in all non-ban states, but in ban states they make the most sense. Being that there are only 6 ban states and NJ does not allow pre-ban full-capacity mags at all, the market has become smaller with the NY changes. It will be important for NY residents who currently own pre-bans to know where they will be wanted.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by feedthedog » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:53 pm

I wonder if an angled fore grip (like the AFG) are kosher?

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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Wildeman_13 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:34 pm

feedthedog wrote:I wonder if an angled fore grip (like the AFG) are kosher?
AFG were deemed legal by CADOJ as per the same "No Vertical Foregrip" item that applies here. However, this would be up to the NYDOJ to actually rule on. I wouldn't push to be a test case myself.

A point on "pre-ban" magazines. Unless there is something specific written into NY's law that is different from the wording in CA, a pre-ban magazine is virtually impossible to distinguish from a "post-ban" magazine. Some had writing on them to the effect of "Military and Police only" and some might have even had a date stamped on them. But the sticky point comes from the fact that magazines (as the guys here like to say) are disposable. Your perfectly legal 30rnd AR pre-ban magazine could now consist of none of the original parts, or possibly only the follower or floor plate are original. The body, spring, follower, floor plate and all that can and do fail and get replaced. That is why there is no clear way for anyone to prove that the Pmag you are using is NOT pre-ban.The spring could have been from your pre-ban legal magazine. This is a HUGE grey area that can both get you into lots of trouble or gets largely ignored by law enforcement because they know it is almost impossible to prove otherwise. CA has this law on it's books and from all I have read, there has been no cases brought to trial or charges filed strictly on the possession of the magazines themselves. YMMV, may not apply to NY. Please verify all local laws where applicable. ;)
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:44 pm

Wildeman_13 wrote:
feedthedog wrote:I wonder if an angled fore grip (like the AFG) are kosher?
AFG were deemed legal by CADOJ as per the same "No Vertical Foregrip" item that applies here. However, this would be up to the NYDOJ to actually rule on. I wouldn't push to be a test case myself.

A point on "pre-ban" magazines. Unless there is something specific written into NY's law that is different from the wording in CA, a pre-ban magazine is virtually impossible to distinguish from a "post-ban" magazine. Some had writing on them to the effect of "Military and Police only" and some might have even had a date stamped on them. But the sticky point comes from the fact that magazines (as the guys here like to say) are disposable. Your perfectly legal 30rnd AR pre-ban magazine could now consist of none of the original parts, or possibly only the follower or floor plate are original. The body, spring, follower, floor plate and all that can and do fail and get replaced. That is why there is no clear way for anyone to prove that the Pmag you are using is NOT pre-ban.The spring could have been from your pre-ban legal magazine. This is a HUGE grey area that can both get you into lots of trouble or gets largely ignored by law enforcement because they know it is almost impossible to prove otherwise. CA has this law on it's books and from all I have read, there has been no cases brought to trial or charges filed strictly on the possession of the magazines themselves. YMMV, may not apply to NY. Please verify all local laws where applicable. ;)
The two prebans I have are evry clearly stamped with a manufacture date on the body. It's also been made rather clear (during the last ban) that the body is the important part.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Wildeman_13 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:15 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:The two prebans I have are evry clearly stamped with a manufacture date on the body. It's also been made rather clear (during the last ban) that the body is the important part.
Not arguing, but was this case law, DOJ comment letters or something else? Like I posted above, CA's law about pre-ban mags is basically useless and no one has been charged with possession alone here. Plenty of legal brand new Pmag 30rnd mags running around that were made from repaired pre-ban mags.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Ten Eight » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:15 pm

All my new DSG's have the dates stamped on them.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Dawgboy » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:42 pm

I would like to add that here in California I have been stopped and searched on a range several times by LEOs when using my Pre CA Ban registered FN and the 8, 20 round mags I have for it. Also bought long before the magic y2k date here. It's a royal PITA to have them "all up in ur junk", but it is what it is. I should mention that I was never even once cited for anything, and even had a ranger ask if he could fire it, but still a hassle...

I recently had somebody offer me 4K for the gun(out of state) and I am seriously thinking about it as I can no longer afford to shoot .308 anyway...

Sorry 'bout your luck NY'ers...
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:09 pm

The comments about pre-ban mags all bring up valid points, but the issue about them is largely moot, as they are flat-out not allowed in NY anymore, which was known for having a small maximum capacity limit while allowing such items anyway, creating a lucrative market for them.

I was asked about the limit on the number of assault rifle features. The actual wording used to be that an assault weapon which was banned had "two or more" of the features, which is now reduced to one. This does not mean that you may now only have one feature, it means that the gun is banned if it has one feature. It remains to be determined if existing guns in NY may retain their status, whether they must be pre-ban-manufacture receivers, or not.

It may turn out that guns considered assault rifles under the new legislation will not be banned, but must be registered. I still have not been able to clearly understand the registration specifics, but I'll be working on it tonight.

The safest route to take now is to assume that all features are not allowed, but do consider that the law is yet largely not understood by residents and law enforcement alike.

I would personally not be hesitant to have a range day with my currently-legal guns, but I would immediately stop if an ATF agent informed me that I was in violation (though I'd prefer to ask such an agent tons of questions first if I could find one). This being the bitter-cold season that it is, it shouldn't be much of a concern. That, and bullets are too damned expensive :).
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Coal-Cracker » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:26 am

On a related note, I just read that in a rush to get this legislation through, there wasn't an exemption made for law enforcement and military. Maybe some of the NY LEOs in our community can confirm.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:59 am

OK, as far as registration, it appears that if you own a gun with any number of previously-legal assault features (normally ONE*), that you must now register that gun, or remove all features not in compliance. An AR that previously has a fixed stock, non-threaded barrel, no bayonet lug, but just a pistol grip (most NY ARs), will now have the option to be registered on a confidential state list, or remove the pistol grip. Whether any of the grips common to California guns will be acceptable remains to be seen, but it does appear so.

*Except for pre-ban guns, which I'm still not clear on, but make up such a small percentage that it will just have to wait until I'm sober again tomorrow.

Not to tip-toe close to the line of decency, but just to state something that makes common sense, enforcement of this new requirement will probably be similar to the current requirement that you should get serial numbers on all of your great-grand-pappy's guns. However, it is likely that you will never take them out of the safe again if that were the case.

REVOLVERS so far are exempt from new legislation. Your 10-round .22 is fine, but just until I'm certain, don't put more than seven rounds in it. Likewise for other fixed internal-magazine guns with capacities greater than seven, and newer than 50 years old. Probably. Time to buy a Garand.

There's a New York State Police list up of manufacturers of ARs, AKs, and a few other guns, but this list IS NOT a list of banned guns, it's a list of manufacturers and models of guns that are likely to be considered assault rifles. This list is not legally binding.

Ammunition will now have to be purchased in person, either by buying at a LGS, or mail-ordering ammo shipped to a FFL. Ammo purchases require showing your permit just as purchasing complete firearms or serial numbered receivers. I don't think there's an NICS check required, but I am not sure. Department stores like WalMart can't (or just choose not to) sell ammo in NY AFAIK.

I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but the new definition of an assault weapon may possibly only apply to guns purchased after 2012. Which would mean that there is now a 1994 pre-ban that does not change, and a 2013 pre-ban, with less than two features. This would make all current ARs and AKs already compliant. Don't quote me on this yet, I'm totally not sure about it. Currently compliant guns will still likely have to be registered as assault weapons.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:01 am

Coal-Cracker wrote:On a related note, I just read that in a rush to get this legislation through, there wasn't an exemption made for law enforcement and military. Maybe some of the NY LEOs in our community can confirm.
There was not, retired police would have to comply with the mag cap. The bill is apparently being appended to fix that.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Coal-Cracker » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:29 pm

Sledgecrowbar wrote:
Coal-Cracker wrote:On a related note, I just read that in a rush to get this legislation through, there wasn't an exemption made for law enforcement and military. Maybe some of the NY LEOs in our community can confirm.
There was not, retired police would have to comply with the mag cap. The bill is apparently being appended to fix that.
Of course. :roll:
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Belair56 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:02 pm

Most stores have 60 days from the date to sell rifles and pistols with the 10 rd mags, and you must promise not to put any more in the mag. I stopped at the Trooper Barracks they know nothing about the law but by 2018 you must renew your pistol permit through them........................I think everyone should have to obey including retired LEO's

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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by AS556 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:55 pm

Ten Eight wrote:All my new DSG's have the dates stamped on them.
Where is the date stamped? I didn't see it on mine.

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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Ten Eight » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:36 pm

It's on the the mag body. It's real small but it's there. I'm at work, but I'll snap a pic tomorrow.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by IcemanUnlimited » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:55 pm

All I have to say about this is *facedesk*.

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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Kutter_0311 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:55 am

Wildeman_13 wrote:A point on "pre-ban" magazines. Unless there is something specific written into NY's law that is different from the wording in CA... :words: ...largely ignored by law enforcement because they know it is almost impossible to prove otherwise. CA has this law on it's books and from all I have read, there has been no cases brought to trial or charges filed strictly on the possession of the magazines themselves. YMMV, may not apply to NY. Please verify all local laws where applicable. ;)
Here's the thing about LE that may have escaped you: LEO's can have these, so there's no point in charging someone, and thus no reason to go to trial, when simple confiscation makes everyone the LEO happy. I'm not trying to piss in any of our beloved LEO's Cheerios, just point out a real-world explanation for what you are not finding in the paperwork. This isn't something limited to mags, I've known a lot of beer/liquor that has gone down the sewer pipe because a cop saw it in a teenager's back seat on a traffic stop. Cop saves paperwork(which the LEO world is FULL of!), and the kid skips a lot of his own troubles. Pretty much falls under officer discretion. "The law says you can't have this, but if you give it to me/water this patch of grass with it, there's no reason for me to write you a ticket..."
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Ten Eight » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:17 am

AK47Heaven wrote:
Ten Eight wrote:All my new DSG's have the dates stamped on them.
Where is the date stamped? I didn't see it on mine.
It's hard to see but it says 4 12.

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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Sledgecrowbar » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:55 am

Ten Eight wrote:It's hard to see but it says 4 12.
Too bad I'm not a NY cop, looks like "6 8" to me. :wink:
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by Wildeman_13 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:21 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote:Here's the thing about LE that may have escaped you: LEO's can have these, so there's no point in charging someone, and thus no reason to go to trial, when simple confiscation makes everyone the LEO happy. I'm not trying to piss in any of our beloved LEO's Cheerios, just point out a real-world explanation for what you are not finding in the paperwork. This isn't something limited to mags, I've known a lot of beer/liquor that has gone down the sewer pipe because a cop saw it in a teenager's back seat on a traffic stop. Cop saves paperwork(which the LEO world is FULL of!), and the kid skips a lot of his own troubles. Pretty much falls under officer discretion. "The law says you can't have this, but if you give it to me/water this patch of grass with it, there's no reason for me to write you a ticket..."
In CA? If a LEO "confiscated" a legal pre-ban >10rnd magazine and didn't press charges, I know for a fact we would have heard about it on Calguns if no where else. I get that unscrupulous people can take advantage of their positions of power for their own gain. But Sheriffs, DFG, and local and State LEOs have all been sued for illegal confiscation here in CA. The only time that I might say that your explanation works, is if the person is truly in possession of an illegal >10rnd magazine. In this instance they may not say anything to anyone to avoid further trouble. But then it is not up to him to prove his innocence, it is up to the State to prove he broke the law. Which has never happened in the 12 years since the magazine restriction was put in place.
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Re: Important Info for NY: Law Changes and What You Need to

Post by AS556 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:30 pm

Ten Eight wrote:
AK47Heaven wrote:
Ten Eight wrote:All my new DSG's have the dates stamped on them.
Where is the date stamped? I didn't see it on mine.
It's hard to see but it says 4 12.


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Ah, I see it now. Thanks.

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